No-Dig Ground Screw?

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Elliot
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No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Elliot » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:14 pm

Any experience with this sort of mail-box anchor? It goes 21 inches into the ground. I wonder whether muscle power is enough? (Of course... "Give me a long enough lever....", but as a practical matter?)

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DoctorIknow
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by DoctorIknow » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:16 pm

I was thinking the same thing about muscle power. And a longer lever might bend the rebar making it impossible to remove.
They designed what looks like the best location for the lever to be inserted, but one would lose the potential depth unless one removed a about 5 inches of playa (need room for hands) in a circle where the lever would need to travel. No way to fashion some driver as is used on normal augers...it would surely bend the plates that hold the 4x4.

There is no mention of the gauge of the steel.
Anyone up for a JuPlaya test?
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Popeye » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:03 pm

If the rebar did not give you enough torque, you could insert the rebar in the drive holes and fabricate a two tined fork with an L shaped handle that fits over the rebar so the 2 tines of the fork contacted the rebar. The fork handle could be as long and strong as you need and all pressure on the rebar none on the supports.
But try it as purchased first.
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Token
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Token » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:28 pm

I’m so skeptical of anything that sounds so slick and easy ...

Pretty sure it would work great in the middle of a golf course putting green, but on a hard-packed, sun baked clay oven playa?

The clay I have on the ranch would mangle that up in a heartbeat. Heck, it mangles and eats u-joints on my 9” Auger with carbide bits off the ol 40Hp PTO ...

Skeptical ...

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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by torrey.smith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:42 am

For $27, this is slightly cheaper than an AEA PE-26. It's actually excellent penetrator geometry. The drive scheme is a bit silly, but I could make an adapter for impact driving.

To be honest, I'm intrigued. I have ordered one for evaluation.

I'm not sure if this exact article is Playa appropriate, but I'll be happy to test it at either Memorial Day or Juplaya.

I am eager to see how it was manufactured.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Molotov » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:23 am

Whatever you bring, please don't bring something like this. While highly effective, if you drive this puppy in, the only way you will get it out is by excavating a big damn hole. Most are too lazy to do that and will say "fuck it" and it becomes part of the MOOP count.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by torrey.smith » Tue May 01, 2018 5:04 pm

Well it arrived and I'm intrigued! It's a hollow welded-up assembly of mild steel that's been galvanized, which gives it some unique properties.

I'm going to cross post to FIGJAM's main thread.

Sextant will definitely test this on our next round.

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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Drizzt321 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:34 am

I imagine those very large, wide screws would work, if driven all the way in. But they're going to be a PAIN to get in there since they're so wide, especially once you get down below ~6". Why not just use 3/8" or 1/2" 12-18" (depending on need) lag screws with an impact driver? Much, MUCH easier and faster, and they'll go flush to the ground unlike that one.

If you're doing very large/tall structures, you'll want something else other than any of these.

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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by captvic » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:06 am

I don't know what you are trying to secure, but this looks like serious overkill. Also, it will be very difficult to screw into the Black Rock Playa. I have tried many different methods for making a strong point on the playa, and the best has been simple lag screws with a two-link piece of chain for attaching lines. We have had excellent results with 10 inch lag screws driven in with a cordless drill. Screw it in, screw it out. Much stronger than a rebar stake and, with no sharp edges, much safer. We used 10 inch lag screws on 10 foot high pipe frame structures, and 8 inch screws with large cabin tents.

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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by ^Rhino! » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:27 pm

The 'correct' name for this is a helical foundation anchor. They make these puppies to hold up high radio masts, etc. In fact, there's a whole subsection of geotechnical engineering for the design and placement of them with very strict specs for the high masts. Hubbell is the company that makes them commercially for such purposes, and those are galvanized. Their plant is in Centralia, Missouri, and it used to be run by the A.B. Chance Company.

I also wouldn't call them 'no-dig'. No-dig is the industry-recognized slang term for trenchless technology.

Hubbell makes solid anchors. We used them to found a 300' communications tower near Flat, MO a couple of years ago.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by TT120 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:44 pm

I saw 2 guys putting something like that into the Playa a couple years ago. They were using a T bar made out of 2" square stock to drive it in. The "handles" were about 3' long and they were just walking a circle around the anchor. I don't know what they were securing but I imagine it could have probably supported a zip line or a guy wire for a large structure.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Canoe » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:48 am

They look great for use in regular soils. Nice and wide to compact the soil the threads are in, and even widening near fully 'installed' to compact the disturbed soil more.
But playa soil is more like super compacted dust? I'm not sure that wide by the threads and that late expansion near the surface would help or just disturb and weaken what could have been a super holding force.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by ^Rhino! » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:00 am

TT120 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:44 pm
I saw 2 guys putting something like that into the Playa a couple years ago. They were using a T bar made out of 2" square stock to drive it in. The "handles" were about 3' long and they were just walking a circle around the anchor. I don't know what they were securing but I imagine it could have probably supported a zip line or a guy wire for a large structure.
In Centralia, Missori, there's a festival devoted to these screws called appropriately, "Anchorfest". They have a one-man and two-man contest using the T-bars to see how fast contestants can screw them into the ground. They take a fair amount of strength to get in. Cash prizes are awarded.

Anchorfest is also kickass for finding such depraved Midwestern culinary treats as fudge-covered funnel cakes and deep-fried Oreo cookies. Add to that the easy availability of the Cattlemen's Association 5-dollar ribeye steak sandwiches, and the antique tractor show and it's an event to be enjoyed.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by ^Rhino! » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 am

Canoe wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:48 am
They look great for use in regular soils. Nice and wide to compact the soil the threads are in, and even widening near fully 'installed' to compact the disturbed soil more.
But playa soil is more like super compacted dust? I'm not sure that wide by the threads and that late expansion near the surface would help or just disturb and weaken what could have been a super holding force.
Playa dust isn't even soil in a sensu stricto soil science sense. It's just sedimentary particles. Like loess ( another type of wind-deposited dust) it has weird mechanical properties. Its chemical properties, though, are fuuuuuked up to boot.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Ratty » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:20 am

Rhino! Where ya been stranger? Are you still in school? (It's been 2 years since we've heard from you.) Good to see your face again. Tell us. Tell us.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:29 am

^Rhino! wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 am
Playa dust isn't even soil in a sensu stricto soil science sense. It's just sedimentary particles. Like loess ( another type of wind-deposited dust) it has weird mechanical properties.
Rhino: I know not much about soil science, except whenever I have to build something I need a soils engineer. I have clay. How is playa different from clay? What are the mechanical properties of soil that are testable governing anchor pull out: screws, smooth circus stakes, and rebar? How does putting it in with a rotary impact (lag screws) or a linear impact (ground rod driver) impact the pull out strength?

Is the playa going to vary from year to year, say deeper than 3" or deeper than 6". I seem to remember a thread on eplaya where someone brought a load cell and used a DPW crane to test pull out of some anchors.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by Canoe » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:27 pm

^Rhino! wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 am
Playa dust isn't even soil in a sensu stricto soil science sense. It's just sedimentary particles. Like loess ( another type of wind-deposited dust) it has weird mechanical properties. Its chemical properties, though, are fuuuuuked up to boot.
Canoe wrote:Typical particle size distribution of BRP soils.
Particle Size Weight Percent
  • Sand (>62.5um) 3.1%
  • Silt (15 - 62.5um) 10.4%
  • Silt (3 - 15um) 21.2%
  • Clay (<3um) 65.3%
Black Rock Playa particles:
Desert Research Institute, Black Rock Playa, Northwestern Nevada: Physical Processes and Aquatic LIfe, Kenneth D. Adams and Donald W. Sada, May 24, 1010, Page 4.
Plus details and all the weird
...fine clay or other soil components (SiO2, Al2O3, quartz, micas, calcite, feldspar, vermiculite, illite, and kaolinite), aquatic micro-fauna eggs or dead body parts, bacteria normally on the playa, bacteria deposited by migratory birds, bacteria blown in off of surrounding land or the bacteria in the water that the water trucks spray on the dusty BRC roads.
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some seeing eye wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:29 am
Is the playa going to vary from year to year, say deeper than 3" or deeper than 6". I seem to remember a thread on eplaya where someone brought a load cell and used a DPW crane to test pull out of some anchors.
What I can recall from that, once the pullup load fractured the compacted playa soil, pretty much game over for holding a load. Which is why I'd expect that, provided it's sufficient for the load, narrow items like lag bolts would be more likely to not disrupt the soil that's in place and holding the load?
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by ^Rhino! » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:06 pm

Canoe wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:27 pm
^Rhino! wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:07 am
Playa dust isn't even soil in a sensu stricto soil science sense. It's just sedimentary particles. Like loess ( another type of wind-deposited dust) it has weird mechanical properties. Its chemical properties, though, are fuuuuuked up to boot.
Canoe wrote:Typical particle size distribution of BRP soils.
Particle Size Weight Percent
  • Sand (>62.5um) 3.1%
  • Silt (15 - 62.5um) 10.4%
  • Silt (3 - 15um) 21.2%
  • Clay (<3um) 65.3%
Black Rock Playa particles:
Desert Research Institute, Black Rock Playa, Northwestern Nevada: Physical Processes and Aquatic LIfe, Kenneth D. Adams and Donald W. Sada, May 24, 1010, Page 4.
Plus details and all the weird
...fine clay or other soil components (SiO2, Al2O3, quartz, micas, calcite, feldspar, vermiculite, illite, and kaolinite), aquatic micro-fauna eggs or dead body parts, bacteria normally on the playa, bacteria deposited by migratory birds, bacteria blown in off of surrounding land or the bacteria in the water that the water trucks spray on the dusty BRC roads.
.
.

some seeing eye wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:29 am
Is the playa going to vary from year to year, say deeper than 3" or deeper than 6". I seem to remember a thread on eplaya where someone brought a load cell and used a DPW crane to test pull out of some anchors.
What I can recall from that, once the pullup load fractured the compacted playa soil, pretty much game over for holding a load. Which is why I'd expect that, provided it's sufficient for the load, narrow items like lag bolts would be more likely to not disrupt the soil that's in place and holding the load?
I have a problem with so-called 'typical' soils in their sense of use at DRI (Desert Research Institute). What depths? What's the control section of their samples? I can tell you that it depends on what classification scheme they're using, be it ASTM Atterberg Limits, USDA soil classification, or whatever. USDA classification leaves us with either a classification overall of Aridosol or Entisol (arid soil or recently formed soil, according to Soil Taxonomy. According to Atterbergs it's a lean clay. The angle of internal friction of the soil is 23 or 24 degrees, obtained from a correlation to plastic indices within 1 standard of deviation. My samples were obtained 500' east of the Man, and at the service gate near the LEO building.

The playa does vary quite a bit. Some has halite, other parts have none. Gypsm varies in content. With the new formations of dunes or 'playa snakes', yo get lots of variances.


BTW, I've read Adams and Saada's work. I have few criticisms. I hope to clarify some of the more flagrant violations of concepts of mineral dust in my upcoming dissertation on mineral dust. The playa dust IS directly responsible for me returning to the University of Missouri as a PhD student at the age of 58. They did, btw, waive the requirement for the ACT score for my entrance application. I only had to get a measles shot before I matriculated. I am a VERY non-traditional student.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by evathedefiler » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:43 pm

Omg! I love you guys nerding out about soil classifications here. I 💜 soil science.
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Re: No-Dig Ground Screw?

Post by ^Rhino! » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:38 am

eva my BRC friend, I'm feeling playful tonight, so I will remind you that indeed, silt happens.


I minored in soil science in undergraduate school, and was a soil scientist with Missouri's Cooperative soil survey during the first three years of my career. During that time I got trained in Lincoln, Nebraska at USDA's National Cooperative Soll Survey in taxonomy. Pedology, or the science of description of soils - I just took my PhD level course in it a couple of semesters ago - I got an 'A' by proving to the prof. that there are indeed Histosols in Missouri. The unexpected stretches your mind and allows original thinking.

After looking at the data, she agreed with me.
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Bacon is forever. Veni, vidi, pertudi. (We came, we saw, we DRILLED.) - BRC Div. of Geology 2009-2015
I'm here until the serendipitous synchronicity is ubiquitous.

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