Sharing Large Generator

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pappachuck
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Sharing Large Generator

Post by pappachuck » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:34 am

Hello,
I have plans to bring a large industrial Generator and create a power grid. I am currently creating an excel sheet with lots of companies and quotes for different sizes of generator.

Since, in summary, energy generation gets cheaper as you increase the size of the generator. I would like to see if there are campers, RVers, and camps interested in sharing the cost accordingly to their KW consumption. It will save you the noise, getting fuel, and cost, with the huge benefit of an uninterrupted supply of power.

Here is a small sample of my table with approx. costs:
20 KVA price per KW $128.01
40 KVA price per KW $95.54
55 KVA price per KW $87.71
100 KVA price per KW $74.14
120 KVA price per KW $70.98
175 KVA price per KW $65.17
250 KVA price per KW $61.50
320 KVA price per KW $60.70
500 KVA price per KW $56.78
1000 KVA price per KW $55.97

Observation:
  • the cost is based on 24/7(approx. 160h ) uninterrupted generation.
  • Limited range of 700 ft radius from the generator.
  • Cannot charge KWh, would be cool, maybe if you bring your own meter. LOL
  • Costs will be updated as I complete my fancy table.
Curiosity:
  • Divide by 160 and you get the price per KWh
  • RVs usually use 2 to 3 KW, theme camps (if you organize one let me know), campers 1KW max with rare exceptions.
I have Electrical and Mechanical engineering background.
I read this very interesting blog: https://www.templetons.com/brad/burn/generators.html
I think it might be a great way to help people, plus it is cheaper and releases a lot less CO2 in comparison to having lots of small generators running.

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Sham
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Sham » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:15 am

In the spirit of gifting, which is one of the 10 principles, you should consider offering up electricity to all the neighbors camped around you in a 700 foot radius. You can't cross or trench across streets, but you'll have groups that will back up to yours in the open camping area. Bring lots of 12 gauge extension cords, as many camps may not be expecting the gift of wattage. :D

pappachuck
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by pappachuck » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:01 am

I will be gifting noise-free cheap electricity. Fuel, insurance, transportation, and rental cost is not free. Trying to keep low cost i would still have some loss.

If I had the option to, I would share the cost. RV is extremely inefficient, noisy, and they charge extra per hour. Campers, well it is hard to be a camper and bring a generator, it is also noisy and inefficient.

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Sham
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Sham » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:11 am

Since there is absolutely no commerce on the playa, you may quickly catch on how the gifting economy works. Take for instance the Tuna Guys. They fish for large tuna to bring to the burn. It costs them quite a bit to bring this all together, but once they get to Black Rock City they cook hundreds of pounds and serve it up for free. That just one example. Think of the hundreds of bars serving up free drinks. they have a lot of costs and expenses, but can't/don't charge for their gift to everyone.

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Ratty
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Ratty » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:02 am

PapaC, It's people like you that have given trolls a bad name. This is a DICK move. You love to stir the pot.
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Luigi
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Luigi » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:21 am

Chuck, I started to write a reply about power distribution and how expensive and time consuming it is (I am an electrical contractor, been there done that) and in my opinion solar/battery or a small honda eu2000 is better (self reliance). Then I saw ratty's post and realized you have no clue.

Have you met sparr?
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some seeing eye
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:12 am

pappachuck wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:01 am
I will be gifting ... cheap electricity.
If you are CHARGING FOR IT it IS NOT A GIFT!

I was hoping this thread would be ignored. It may be that whatever we say the individual will come up with some reason why we all are wrong, maybe they go about solving every problem in a spectrum way we don't understand.

But to the OP and virgin readers:

Trust is earned in a relationship.

Face to face in person in real life over time works best to create trust.

We have had some spectacular failures in trust which have an eerie similarity to this ongoing proposal. One was the Gypsy Flower Power Camp. Fly-in virgins fell prey to it, then compounded it by their own bad behavior.

There is nothing wrong with developing a spreadsheet and camp plan on paper as an exercise in self-education, but this is not the right forum for detailed discussions of vendors and costs. The other resource is the Burning Man Theme Camp Symposium. The cost to attend in person is well worth it considering the scale of your plans. And as has been said many times here, the cost of attending your first year, solo or however before trying to create your own camp is essential.

If you really want a challenge, try sharing a single RV with strangers for your first year.
increasing the signal to noise ratio with compassion

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BBadger
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by BBadger » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:15 pm

pappachuck wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:01 am
I will be gifting noise-free cheap electricity. Fuel, insurance, transportation, and rental cost is not free. Trying to keep low cost i would still have some loss.
Wait, what are you even "gifting" here besides an idea?
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

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Lonesomebri
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Lonesomebri » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:48 pm

You should realize you aren't planning an alternative to plug n plays, you're dreaming up your own version of one, imagining you'll do it "right".

Without a placed camp or extensive network of seasoned Burners, how do you plan to assemble people interested in your "gift" of a power grid all together on the playa close enough to share?

How will you plan this gift in advance, your imagining others showing up in need of a power supply but not bringing their own, but counting on your whim to supply them, along with a spot for them to camp close enough to access the power?

Do you plan on others chipping in with costs ahead of time?

Have you ever camped out before?

I'd suggest you do all you've posted about, and make a documentary about it also. Don't want you to be bored on your first Burn.
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Token
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Token » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:08 pm

Image

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Toe
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Toe » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:18 pm

With uncomfortable amounts of sunlight in an era of dirt cheap solar, it seems like a hop in the wrong direction to bring a hub-and spoke model of electricity, especially so with an air-MOOPing generator. The future of the powergrid is decentralization so it's worth thinking about how to apply this at TTITD. Here is a talk by Ryan Wartena at Snow Koan on the subject .

While there are many groups that share generators like the Black Rock Power COOP, the interesting innovation is happening in places like the AEZ (Alternative Energy Zone) where they don't allow generators of any kind and Snow Koan Solar where there is a lot of ice cream. Go on the AEZ tour to see for yourself.

The playa provides a wealth of thermodynamic and human resources (sun, wind, evaporative AC, smart people) if you're open to a paradigm shift.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:15 am

Solar lol.

Wanna explain for everyone precisely how big the panels will be, and how heavy the battery bank will be for even 5000 watts, adequate to hold that load all night?

Then let’s mention cost, that’ll shock a few people half to death.

Solar, for high-current temporary portable use. That’s a great idea.

The stock solar answer is always “well reduce your power usage”.
Right. A guy goes to buy a truck and instead of getting what will carry what he wants to carry, the salesman says “buy this small car and carry less”.
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XPTom
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by XPTom » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:52 am

Generators make you think about solar. Solar makes you think the long lines to buy ices aren't that bad.
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:44 am

Token wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:08 pm
Image
I was scrolling down the thread & almost shot coffee out my nose when I got to this. Made my morning. :D
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

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FlyingMonkey
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by FlyingMonkey » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:42 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:15 am
Solar lol.

Wanna explain for everyone precisely how big the panels will be, and how heavy the battery bank will be for even 5000 watts, adequate to hold that load all night?
It really depends on your needs. I personally don't use much electricity at the Burn. I have a few things like a swamp cooler with a DC pump, a fan, I charge a phone that I never use & I have a few battery packs for all the blinkys. I have found that my 2 x 100 Watt panels & batteries exceeds what I need. They were purchased years ago, always start & are quiet. If you are supporting a large camp, DJ equipment or have an art car I totally get why a generator is needed. At some point your electrical consumption hits a level where solar is not practical. That point is different for everyone because some people go solar for other reasons too. I personally don't like the thought of using a stinky/noisy generator unless my electrical needs require it.

The OP is trying to solve a problem that probably doesn't exist and in my opinion conflicts with at least 2 of the 10 Principals. I'm all for collaboration & sharing resources but this is not about that.

Another problem with consolidating a resource like that is that its a single point of failure. if something goes wrong everyone hooked up & depending on it is screwed. And yet the guy with the solar panels is staying cool under the mist of his swamp cooler. :shock:
In your wildest dreams you can not imagine the marvelous SURPRISES that await YOU.

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Token
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Token » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:55 pm

NSFW !!!!
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I warned you!!!!
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Fught Club - tha movie ...
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Image


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Hey! I could have done the “pissing in the Bisque” scene.

pappachuck
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by pappachuck » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:13 pm

Ok,
I am just trying to save camp money for their main project.
I am new to Burning Man, I am part of a camp, I am great with spreadsheets and planning. I picked their budget and I am making it more efficient. Which is by the way I so far found a way to cut our expenses in 50% and still increase the comfort and structure of the camp.
You guys are so hard on me.
I still have a lot of stuff to discuss about OSS's monopolies and fuel. United rentals is a thief. So i will be steering the pot a little more.

Skuzzy61
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Skuzzy61 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:14 am

No offense pappachuck, but it seems you are attempting to create a Sandal's resort in the middle of the Playa and then complaining about the cost of doing so.

I am struggling to have any sympathy for you and I am a damn easy going guy.
As the camp evolves.....
We got this! 2016/2019
We had it! 2020
We almost lost it! 2021
We have no idea where it is! 2022
Who the hell are we and why are we here? 2023

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Toe
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Toe » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:09 pm

Pappachuck, I'm being hard on you because I can't stand generators especially somewhere so sunny. Mine runs the lights phones, music, and camera charging for fifty odd people and I've had a lot of positive responses.

Resource sharing is good though. You're sort of on the right track; maybe your efforts will resonate better if you arrange things as a cooperative/collective, maybe.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:31 am

Radical Self Reliance.

That’s what this isn’t.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

GingerPixY34
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by GingerPixY34 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm

i will stick to my one woman tent & solar lights...thnks it been working for me..

LowePro
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by LowePro » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:56 pm

PapC: it's one thing to connect with people ahead of time and make arrangements to share costs and logistics on a project, such as neighboring camps making arrangements to share a generator. I don't think there's anything wrong with posting on Eplaya in June to see if anyone is interested in partnering up on a generator-share, and then you'd get the ball rolling to make your project happen. Plenty of people do stuff like that.

The difference would be to show up at the event with your big generator and offer electrical hook ups to paying "customers" for a fee. That's definitely not in the spirit of the Burn and not allowed, and kind of cheesy/douchey anyway.

I can't tell from your post what type of scenario you were envisioning (and I don't really care to get any further involved), but I hope that distinction helps you understand why some people replied the way they did.

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Elorrum
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Elorrum » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:59 pm

That shit is noisy isn't it? Where are you putting this beast so all your neighbors don't draw straws to see who gets the sabotage detail?
"Ask again later." - Magic 8-Ball

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Toe
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Toe » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:57 pm

Another win for solar this year :D

After a few minutes of rejigging I've got my lithium solar rig humming along quite nicely. It charges the battery in like an hour or two even if it's cloudy, and after that it's all electric gravy for things like other people's batteries, a buffer massage station, blender smoothies, ice maker...

The main tricks are efficiency and automation. This way our camp didn't give up any convenience; we simply used better tools. We ran our kitchen, staff lounge, and public area on 65 Watts.

There was silent electricity 24/7 without having to fire up a generator to charge a cellphone.

Yes it wasn't a purely solar year. Yes, we could have used more battery to run music on our one loud party night so we busted out our backup generator for a few hours that night. Yes, one dude ran his rattly generator a lot because he had some silly phantom load draining his bus battery. And yes, there are more things in our camp that should be automated; but overall the 43 of us had really good quality of life on a modest solar system.

The whole camp over at Dante's Inferno supposedly runs all their big(ish) sound and lighting at a miniscule 1000W. They have a bigger solar rig but they use their electricity wisely.

So remember, when you seem to need a shit-ton of electricity, there is often a more elegant solution than applying bruit force and ignorance, sometimes.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:14 am

Brute force and ignorance?
I’m glad it worked for your applications and sounds pretty cool but people who use generators at Burning Man aren’t ignorant. They just want what works, and solar that actually matches generator output is prohibitively expensive, large and heavy. Your setup did not come remotely close to matching the performance of even the tiniest little portable Honda.
65 watts wouldn’t begin to run my gear, much less the whole camp of about ten people.
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XPTom
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by XPTom » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:31 am

solar, generator, or small scale anything has a bad dollar/kwh ratio. My 160W panel + MPPT charge controller + 2 deep cycle batteries produce about 15 cents of electricity per day.... 300 more burns and I'll break even on costs.

Added consideration is I'm retired and use it more than just during burn, and often in National Parks that have generator restrictions. Folks don't go to Jellystone to listen to generators. Adequate to cool 20+ beers a day in my DC fridge. Break even point is still over 100 years, but quietly turning hot sun into cold beer earns "cool points" redeemable in many locations
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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unjonharley
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by unjonharley » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:36 am

I need power to charge the mobility scooter .. Can not think of another thing that uses power.. Always bring a pack of batteries to share .. One yard solar spot light, to light the shelter when coming in late nite/early morning .. quote Shutter Slut " It's a camping trip.. Not the redemption"..
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

flyingron
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Re: Sharing Large Generator

Post by flyingron » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:52 am

By the way while there's some good info in Brad's page linked, there's some inaccuracies (scary and otherwise). I would recommend anybody thinking of messing with large power distribution spend some time to learn (or have competent advice) on what they plan to do lest someone gets hurt.

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