Lag screws vs everything else...

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FIGJAM
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Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:21 pm

The place I originally got my lag screws are now charging 10X what I paid for them.

Here is a new source that I haven't tried, but for a buck a piece, they're cheaper than tent stakes! 8)

[edit: link pulled. An unsolicited link to an unasked question falls under commerce, no matter how good the intention. Please remember the basic rule - if someone asks a question, you are free to refer away, as long as you don't personally profit from the sites you refer to. If there is no question, it's like walking into someones camp & shouting about the great deal you found, without anyone asking. The thread can stand, since it's moved away from discussing the link. -Eric]
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Canoe
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Canoe » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:56 pm

And since virgins coming along might be wondering what this is about, and to promote something that can meaningfully reduce injuries on playa, I'm going to post as per the Thread Topic.

Tent Pegs/Stakes

Some have a favorite tent peg that is Playa-Tested©)'( with success.
Rebar has a high track record of:
  • success in doing the job (some failures, learn where/how to use it),
  • being difficult to remove (technique helps a lot), and
  • injuring people - you can take measures, but there are alternatives that are easier, safer and low cost.
My favourite to date is Figjam's Lag Bolt & Chain-link solution. https://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?f=277&t=63610&p=919139#p919139
(yup. same guy as the swamp-cooler)
Great solution if a cordless hand drill is within your means, or you don't mind using a ratchet.

Regarding rebar and other stakes
when you pound them completely flush there's slightly less of a tripping hazard (except for guy lines, which you should still mark or illuminate)...

It's not just the tripping hazard, but the severity of injuries.
  • Cuts & wounds from rebar/tent-pegs tend to be one of, if not the highest, cause of injuries at BRC.
    (And it certainly seems that every time I've been near medical, there's someone else being brought in with a torn foot. I shudder just remembering the looks on their faces.)
  • Those who trip and land on raised parts can get rather horrific tearing and/or puncture injuries, including to the face.
  • Things like tennis balls over protruding parts doesn't do much for reducing tripping (some might notice them in time), but it does greatly reduce the severity of injuries to those body parts hitting or landing on them.
    The goal is bruises and scrapes - instead of tearing and puncture wounds.

  • When rebar, stakes & tent pegs are flush to the ground (not even an inch sticking up, like the rebar-candycane and others),
    • the likelihood of a puncture or tearing injury goes way down.
    • The chance of a brain case puncture is reduced to near zero. This is NOT the case with a piece of rebar or metal stake sticking above the ground.

So you can see that Figjam's lagbolts are flush except for a low-profile hex-head, and two smooth/round links of chain.
Best balance I've seen yet for safety, strength, resistance to wind/vibration loosening, easy of install and ease of removal.


Only problem is they're too cheap to bother trying to patent. :D
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FIGJAM
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:03 pm

One site stated that the breaking strength of one of my bolts is 5000 pounds, so I think everything else will break before the bolt does. 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FossaFerox » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:05 pm

Out of curiosity, what did you originally pay for yours? And break strength isn't the same as pull-out strength, but I'm sure you knew that. :P
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:18 pm

A buck a piece if I bought 10 at a time.

That was 3 years ago!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:33 am

FIGJAM wrote:One site stated that the breaking strength of one of my bolts is 5000 pounds, so I think everything else will break before the bolt does. 8)

Damn, they should have used those one the bridge!
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elorrum » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:25 am

12" galvanized spike 70 cents. galvanized washer, can't remember. better than a tent stake, cheaper than one that size, and mixed with rebar (#4 x 24") good value. I've got a heavy bundle I add to each year. (Getting close to being able to hold down a circus tent.) Not having a power tool and charger on playa, or a welder off playa, the super fig-lag is an accessory I can only dream about.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby TT120 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:45 am

These things work perfectly.......

We staked down a hippie just outside our camp last year, (think Lilliputians) and he didn't move the whole week. :lol:
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Joeln » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:54 am

TT120 wrote:These things work perfectly.......

We staked down a hippie just outside our camp last year, (think Lilliputians) and he didn't move the whole week. :lol:

How many of those days was he still breathing? The rest don't count.
Only one hippie? I'd think you'd have no problem finding hundreds at BM.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:44 am

Joeln wrote:
TT120 wrote:These things work perfectly.......

We staked down a hippie just outside our camp last year, (think Lilliputians) and he didn't move the whole week. :lol:

How many of those days was he still breathing? The rest don't count.
Only one hippie? I'd think you'd have no problem finding hundreds at BM.

The rest were covered with water truck residue. No one wanted to touch them.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Canoe » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:48 am

Elorrum wrote:...Not having a power tool and charger on playa, or a welder off playa, the super fig-lag is an accessory I can only dream about.

O.K., I'll bite.
What's the welder for?

p.s. you can use a socket and ratchet to put a Super-Fig-Lag in and out
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby ygmir » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:53 am

Elorrum wrote:12" galvanized spike 70 cents. galvanized washer, can't remember. better than a tent stake, cheaper than one that size, and mixed with rebar (#4 x 24") good value. I've got a heavy bundle I add to each year. (Getting close to being able to hold down a circus tent.) Not having a power tool and charger on playa, or a welder off playa, the super fig-lag is an accessory I can only dream about.


it happens you have a friend (probably more than one) out there, who brings an electric impact and EU2K gennie, that you'd be welcome to borrow.
Just sayin................
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elorrum » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:17 pm

doesn't he weld two links of chain to the bolt?
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby ygmir » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:33 pm

Elorrum wrote:doesn't he weld two links of chain to the bolt?


can. or make a washer with links on it, for easier spinning if installing with an impact driver.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:03 pm

I just put the bolt through the link.

No welding! 8)

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Sunbeam56 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:26 pm

Our local hardware store doesn't carry lags big enuff. So I ordered a packet. Thanks for the source. :)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby GreyCoyote » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:38 pm

Hey Figgy: got a link or reference for those cheap lag bolts? :roll: :mrgreen: I sure would like to vet a cheaper source. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:59 pm

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby GreyCoyote » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:02 pm

Figgy, you are THE Man! (wait.. I domt mean that in a bad way... Just a really cool guy. Not someone I want to stuff with parafin-soaked burlap and burn some summer night while a bunch of drunken revelers cheer and hoot.) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:04 pm

Sunbeam56 wrote:Our local hardware store doesn't carry lags big enuff. So I ordered a packet. Thanks for the source. :)


I found that to be true of all the hardware stores here too.

I wonder if they can order longer ones?

Might still be pricier than some online sources. 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:05 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:Figgy, you are THE Man! (wait.. I domt mean that in a bad way... Just a really cool guy. Not someone I want to stuff with parafin-soaked burlap and burn some summer night while a bunch of drunken revelers cheer and hoot.) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



Been there, done that, burnt the tee shirt!!! :lol:
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FossaFerox » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:29 pm

Fig, are yours 14"? For some reason I had it in my head that the ones you use (and used for the pull-out test using your truck) are longer...
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:30 pm

Yup, mine are 18", but I can't find those anywhere now unless I go to a larger diameter bolt.

Then you can get them 24"s long, but they won't fit through a grommet. 8)
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FossaFerox » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:09 pm

I'm super hesitant to entrust the safety of my camp and my neighbors to a mere 14". I know the threading makes the pull-out strength significantly higher than rebar, but still...

I don't suppose anyone with a winch, tension scale, 14" bolt, and some free time could repeat the test for this new batch of bolts? :|
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Canoe » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:04 pm

FossaFerox wrote:... to a mere 14". I know the threading makes the pull-out strength significantly higher than rebar, but still...|

You're counting on inline pull-out strength? That's not how you should be using pegs/stakes/rebar/etc..
  1. that's pretty hard to do on a Super-Fig-Lag with the pulling load offset by the link. For normal use of the Super-Fig-Lag, the threading is only for easy of getting it into and out of the playa. It also has strength for inline purposes too, but that's not the "normal" use of "pegs".
  2. A tent peg, stake, rebar, Super-Fig-Lag, etc., should be put into to the ground as far as possible, and the rope/load attached as close the the ground as possible; the load on it can't get any meaningful leverage from an above ground portion against a below ground portion if the whole "peg" is below the ground.
    Big hint there. There's no leverage for an inline load. So why their concern? Because you should be installing the peg/stake/rebar/Super-Fig-Lag at an angle against the load. The load shouldn't pull it up out of the ground, but be pulling on it sideways.
In the image below, consider only the first peg. Pretty good angle and good line position. But the portion above would not be providing any holding strength. (and if the line wasn't next to the ground, the load would have leverage for pulling it out of the ground.)
In the second example, there's more strength as there's more peg in the ground.
The third is a technique for use in soft ground, or very large loads, to stop the pivoting of the peg and it tearing out of the ground. (The idea is illustrated, but the amount of peg in the ground and the placement of the rope is not optimum) (and at the top, the rope will want to slide down, at the bottom, it will want to slide up, which is really bad in the next example, but these are old examples just illustration purposes,)
Of course the last example makes better use of the strength of the last peg.
pegs.png
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:53 pm

This is awesome. After 4 years of pounding and pulling and sweating I'm finally going to buy a bunch of lag bolts.

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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby FossaFerox » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:10 am

I'm no stranger to how pegs work, but this isn't an open camp site and triple stacking results in a tripping hazard. On top of that, it wastes a ton of material and introduces more potential failure points. Using a single bolt long enough to support the load is a much more elegant solution, I'm just curious what the failure load on the shorter bolts is.

We have people here on the forums that have done first hand testing in the past, it didn't strike me as an unreasonable hope that someone might test out the shorter bolts as well.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Joeln » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:28 am

Ok So I don't have drill worth a shit otherwise I'd go with lag bolts for sure.
If I put my tent where it has substantial wind protection from nearby structures shouldn't the 12 inch 3/8 nail be sufficient?
I've done tons of backpacking in sometimes heavy winds so my gut says I'll be fine.
But I guess if the top 4 inches of playa is loose dust then i'd be concerned.
Someone tell me it's not that bad.
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby Elorrum » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:02 am

Joeln wrote:Ok So I don't have drill worth a shit otherwise I'd go with lag bolts for sure.
If I put my tent where it has substantial wind protection from nearby structures shouldn't the 12 inch 3/8 nail be sufficient?
I've done tons of backpacking in sometimes heavy winds so my gut says I'll be fine.
But I guess if the top 4 inches of playa is loose dust then i'd be concerned.
Someone tell me it's not that bad.

There are spots with deep drifts, and spots that have clearer harder pack. Your common sense and experience does count for something. It's an unusual place to camp, but it's not out of this world. Stake all the stake out points, and guy out all the guy out lines. Once you've seen some wind on your set up, and you've gone back to see how it is faring, adjust, add more stakes and ropes, etc, you'll be more comfortable when you head out. That's not to say that there are no whammies waiting. With 24" rebar, I usually don't have the entire thing sunk into the ground. I put solar landscape lights on these bits. With the nail, it's all the way in.

Alternative Energy Zone is a good website with lots of playa tested info. I tried the candy can rebar, and built one giant spring, and gave up on that.
http://ae-zone.org/
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Re: Lag screws vs everything else...

Postby ygmir » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:52 am

heavy stuff inside the tent can help, too.

there are multiple threads dealing with this..........I know we had long discussions on stakes vs auger anchors ( I use the anchors with an auger on the end, and they hold super).

a little searching will reveal what you've not seen here.
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