Radical Exclusion

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jhimbo
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Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:08 am

Hi
Would love to join you folks, but no ticket. I am imagining that the $11,000 I earned last year was far to much to be awarded a low-income ticket :cry:
How that works is anybody's guess. Suspect at best.

Here is what I don't get:
- "No prerequisites exist for participation in our community"
Really? I can show up without a ticket and be included in your community? Somehow I don't think so.

-Gifting. The Grateful Dead crowd knew a thing or two about gifting. BM, not so much, in my experience.

-Decommodification. Right. Available at $400 a pop.

Sour grapes? Sure. I attempted to join last year too, but the ticket farce was absurd, as you know.
But I am a big fan of practicing what one preaches.
And I am not seeing that here.
Feel free to enlighten me....

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lemur
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by lemur » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:10 am

nice try!
Don't link to anything here!

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:22 am

jhimbo wrote:Hi
Would love to join you folks, but no ticket. I am imagining that the $11,000 I earned last year was far to much to be awarded a low-income ticket :cry:
How that works is anybody's guess. Suspect at best.

Here is what I don't get:
- "No prerequisites exist for participation in our community"
Really? I can show up without a ticket and be included in your community? Somehow I don't think so.

-Gifting. The Grateful Dead crowd knew a thing or two about gifting. BM, not so much, in my experience.

-Decommodification. Right. Available at $400 a pop.

Sour grapes? Sure. I attempted to join last year too, but the ticket farce was absurd, as you know.
But I am a big fan of practicing what one preaches.
And I am not seeing that here.
Feel free to enlighten me....

Here is also what you don't get:

"Radical self reliance"


Enjoy that sour grape whine and keep assuming, imagining and badmouthing.

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TT120
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by TT120 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:27 am

Obvious troll is obvious.
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jhimbo
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:04 am

I am a human being asking pretty relevant questions. Haven't seen an answer worth a darn yet.

If you need to call someone a troll, look in the mirror.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by TT120 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:22 am

jhimbo wrote:.....If you need to call someone a troll, look in the mirror.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by ygmir » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:23 am

ah, but you don't need a ticket, to participate in the Burning Man community, as a whole.........only to attend this event.

this is not rainbow. "Radical self reliance" is the big key.
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theCryptofishist
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:38 am

Not radical in the least. Plain old ordinary gatekeeper exclusion stuff. The demand is bigger than supply. Some are going to be left outside.
I don't know if the 11 thousand is too much. I do know that there is some sort of essay component to the process, and judging from the two, admittedly small, samples of your writing in this thread, I can see that you might not have been as sparkling as you might. A little groany and defensive.
There is also an entire long thread about the existence of low-income tickets. Maybe if you read the damn thing, did a little self-educating, you might do a little better here. Or maybe not.
Low-income closed months ago. Have you been just holding that resentment in for all that time? No, don't answer that question. Purely rhetorical.
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by mudpuppy000 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:44 am

ygmir wrote:ah, but you don't need a ticket, to participate in the Burning Man community, as a whole.........only to attend this event.

this is not rainbow. "Radical self reliance" is the big key.
True, there's tons of low cost/free events going on all the time, depending on where you're at. There's also a lot of projects that need help off playa that you can get involved in.

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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:51 am

Ok Mr. Freeloader, I guess you expect ME to pay for you to come to a party, right?
No one ever said Burning Man was free. It isn't.
Who is supposed to pay for the infrastructure for your free party? Where is the high-six-figure money for the land use permit supposed to come from? How about the porta potties... the law enforcement (sorry but it's required for a gathering this size) etc. etc. etc.
Well let's see... I know, advertising revenue would make it free for you! Oh wait, that decommodification you mentioned - except you confused it with "hand-out".
Perhaps the vendors' profit would make your ticket free. Oh... decommodification...
The years I don't have the disposable income to go to a rather expensive party, I DON'T GO.
Burning Man isn't a "right". It's not even necessary. It's a party you opt to attend if YOU have the means or resourcefulness to make happen for yourself.

Grow up.
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by stew » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:01 am

Wait till thursday before the man burns, I'm sure you'll find a $70 ticket on eplaya then. :wink:
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Zhust » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:18 am

jhimbo wrote:-Decommodification. Right. Available at $400 a pop.
Let's work on definitions, okay? Decommodification is like "acting to oppose commodification." Commodification is like "taking something and treating it like a commodity". A commodity is like "something that is interchangeable and treated identical for trade." So putting it all together, decommodification is like "acting to oppose taking something and treating like it is interchangeable/identical for trade."

Burning Man is the only event I've ever known where you can say, "hey, I'm an individual and I don't have a lot of money, so can I get a cheaper ticket?" Head on over to Ticketbastards.com (oh please, Internet, make that a thing<amen />) and try that one. See how far it gets you. To them, you are a commodity: an interchangeable dispenser of money. Your money is just as good as anybody else's and that's all that matters to them.

The stepping stone to understanding decommodification for me was how I treated people standing on the liquor-side of a bar. In the default world, the bartender is a commodity — a means to exchange money for drink. Anybody can do it. Some are better than others, but the interactions with a bartender are typically of the form, "I'd like a ..." (or "gimme ..." depending on how you were raised) no matter which bartender it is. To decommodify that interaction is to see a unique individual and treat jem as such. Chat with jem for a while. Jee may eventually ask if you'd like something to drink. You are a guest in jeir home, so-to-speak — does it not seem crass to walk into someone's home and say, "gimme two Irish car-bombs"? for to do so would commodify that relationship.

From there, it's about everything. Interactions with people, art, food, drink — decommodify it all (except PBR, apparently.)
May your deeds return to you tenfold,
---Zhust, Curiosityist

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Sundial » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:18 am

jhimbo wrote:I am a human being asking pretty relevant questions. Haven't seen an answer worth a darn yet.

If you need to call someone a troll, look in the mirror.
Translation: NO U!!!1
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by FIGJAM » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:44 am

jhimbo wrote:- "No prerequisites exist for participation in our community"
Really? I can show up without a ticket and be included in your community? Somehow I don't think so.
You showed up here without a ticket didn't you?

This is part of the community!!! :roll:
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:14 am

Thanks, ygmir, I always appreciate a mindful response.
I get the radical self-reliance; and of course if I were to find a ticket, that is just the beginning of the journey, there is a lot more to survival in that environment than just showing up, and I do understand that it is going to cost a lot more and require significant participation...
That point is well taken, tho I do not believe "radical self-reliance" trumps or negates "radical inclusion" nor "gifting" nor "decommodification."

In any event, seems the 10 Principles should be more than a self-congratulatory pat on the back, to be ignored when the questions get tough.
Anyone into mindfully discussing the aforementioned topics, I am all ears.

ygmir, this event IS Burning Man, the very essence of the concept, and everything else the community does outside of the event is peripheral. Valid yes, peripheral for sure. One should experience the event, to really be part of the community, no? Otherwise, it is like saying you can't be a Senator cause you don't have enough money, but you CAN be part of the "Senator's Community" if you watch from afar. Seems a tad silly. We don't want to pretend to be part of the BM community, or live vicariously through forums and chats; we actually seek inclusion to the main BM event. Not too radical a concept imho.
We want to go to BM, the event, not meet up later and celebrate the event which we were restricted from.

Maybe BM should be free for everyone, and a radical new method of funding the event discussed. Now THAT would be radical inclusion.
Maybe there should be some transparency with low-income tix, as that system clearly failed me (and I am sure many others).
Maybe, just maybe, we can actually have a dialogue about it all, without me being called a troll. I am sorry if my quest for understanding is interpreted by you as flaming; sorry for the karma you are dealing with, not for my questions.
Please don't bother calling me names or babbling about "sour grapes." I am seeking mindful conversation and understanding (trolling is something else entirely, look it up if you don't understand); and as I said in my first post ever, that this is also sour grapes, sure. We all get that. No need to keep saying it, or you might risk appearing to be a redundant individual, and I am sure that is not the case.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:17 am

jhimbo wrote:I am seeking mindful conversation


Not from the look of your opening post :wink:

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:24 am

DrewDubious wrote:
jhimbo wrote:I am seeking mindful conversation


Not from the look of your opening post :wink:
Well then, you are invited to keep on readin... :wink:

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by Sundial » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:28 am

I personally think radical inclusion is more about not turning a person away just because they're a certain colour or have different political views or are too old or whatever. Radical inclusion can't negate practical reality, and the practical reality is this thing costs money to organize and maintain. A lot of money. The only way you could possibly make it free for everyone would be to DRASTICALLY reduce the population size to a point where the necessary annual expenses could be reliably secured via fundraisers and donations alone, and then you end up excluding a bunch of people anyway because you have a much much smaller population limit.

As for transparency, sure. Nothing wrong with more transparency. But frankly I think you want that transparency because you feel there was some sinister reason for your exclusion, and you don't even acknowledge the possibility that maybe they just didn't like your essay or something. Demand exceeds supply, so they've gotta draw the line somewhere.

jhimbo wrote:Thanks, ygmir, I always appreciate a mindful response.
I get the radical self-reliance; and of course if I were to find a ticket, that is just the beginning of the journey, there is a lot more to survival in that environment than just showing up, and I do understand that it is going to cost a lot more and require significant participation...
That point is well taken, tho I do not believe "radical self-reliance" trumps or negates "radical inclusion" nor "gifting" nor "decommodification."

In any event, seems the 10 Principles should be more than a self-congratulatory pat on the back, to be ignored when the questions get tough.
Anyone into mindfully discussing the aforementioned topics, I am all ears.

ygmir, this event IS Burning Man, the very essence of the concept, and everything else the community does outside of the event is peripheral. Valid yes, peripheral for sure. One should experience the event, to really be part of the community, no? Otherwise, it is like saying you can't be a Senator cause you don't have enough money, but you CAN be part of the "Senator's Community" if you watch from afar. Seems a tad silly. We don't want to pretend to be part of the BM community, or live vicariously through forums and chats; we actually seek inclusion to the main BM event. Not too radical a concept imho.
We want to go to BM, the event, not meet up later and celebrate the event which we were restricted from.

Maybe BM should be free for everyone, and a radical new method of funding the event discussed. Now THAT would be radical inclusion.
Maybe there should be some transparency with low-income tix, as that system clearly failed me (and I am sure many others).
Maybe, just maybe, we can actually have a dialogue about it all, without me being called a troll. I am sorry if my quest for understanding is interpreted by you as flaming; sorry for the karma you are dealing with, not for my questions.
Please don't bother calling me names or babbling about "sour grapes." I am seeking mindful conversation and understanding (trolling is something else entirely, look it up if you don't understand); and as I said in my first post ever, that this is also sour grapes, sure. We all get that. No need to keep saying it, or you might risk appearing to be a redundant individual, and I am sure that is not the case.
Last edited by Sundial on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:29 am

jhimbo wrote:
DrewDubious wrote:
jhimbo wrote:I am seeking mindful conversation


Not from the look of your opening post :wink:
Well then, you are invited to keep on readin... :wink:


Oh, I see... so it's /OUR/ fault... :roll:

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:30 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:Ok Mr. Freeloader, I guess you expect ME to pay for you to come to a party, right?
...
Grow up.
I did not ask anyone to pay for me. I simply pointed at the 10 Principles and related my experience, and opened the floor to conversation.
You might want to check your attitude at the door...

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:32 am

DrewDubious wrote: Oh, I see... so it's /OUR/ fault... :roll:
What I MEANT was keep reading my posts. And I meant it in the most respectful of ways. Geez. You people sure are ready for a fight.
Not me, I'm a lover.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:34 am

jhimbo wrote: I did not ask anyone to pay for me.

Well, not directly... But when you try to get a low income ticket, I am sure you realize those are only available because the rest of the people pay full price... it's not like the low income tickets holders cost the event planners any less...

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:36 am

jhimbo wrote:
DrewDubious wrote: Oh, I see... so it's /OUR/ fault... :roll:
What I MEANT was keep reading my posts. And I meant it in the most respectful of ways. Geez. You people sure are ready for a fight.
Not me, I'm a lover.

What I meant was you came off in a particular way with the tone of your post. Also, what do you mean "YOU PEOPLE?" :evil:

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:38 am

You might want to check yours as well.
Like it or not, you approached a board full of people who have heard all sorts of whining about unfairness on ticketing, have or have not come to terms with the way the llc lets us know about things, have little to no direct power over how things are done, and who are stressed by putting in their final days of prep. And, apparently, you want us to stop all that and cosset you until you feel better. Ship has essentially sailed for this year, so you could have left it until November...

Plus in the way you are putting forth your argument, you seem to be carrying a grudge about it all. You started this conversation. This is an internet board. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
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theCryptofishist
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:39 am

DrewDubious wrote:
jhimbo wrote:
DrewDubious wrote: Oh, I see... so it's /OUR/ fault... :roll:
What I MEANT was keep reading my posts. And I meant it in the most respectful of ways. Geez. You people sure are ready for a fight.
Not me, I'm a lover.

What I meant was you came off in a particular way with the tone of your post. Also, what do you mean "YOU PEOPLE?" :evil:
Ditto: I'M A LOVER. Actually, here you're going to be judged by actions, not the labels you put on yourself. We're kinda assholes, that way.
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by DrewDubious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:41 am

to be perfectly honest, for all everyone here knows I could be a troll also! :mrgreen:


also, on that note. for all the blatant trolling I have done here, I never once got called a troll. You must be doing something wrong if you actually aren't trolling and people are calling you one.





just sayin! :D
Last edited by DrewDubious on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by CornMan » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:41 am

If anybody didn't have to buy tickets, then nobody would buy them. The resulting lack of funds would probably make the event suck. I advise to save up and buy a ticket next year.
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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:58 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
DrewDubious wrote:

What I meant was you came off in a particular way with the tone of your post. Also, what do you mean "YOU PEOPLE?" :evil:
Ditto: I'M A LOVER. Actually, here you're going to be judged by actions, not the labels you put on yourself. We're kinda assholes, that way.
By you people, I mean you people who are responding to this thread. Wow.

Actually, I am not going to be judged (thanks for judging me, btw) by my actions, clearly I am going to be judged by the way you interpret my words.
That's on you, not me.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:02 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: Like it or not, you approached a board full of people who have heard all sorts of whining about unfairness on ticketing, have or have not come to terms with the way the llc lets us know about things, have little to no direct power over how things are done, and who are stressed by putting in their final days of prep. And, apparently, you want us to stop all that and cosset you until you feel better. Ship has essentially sailed for this year, so you could have left it until November...

Plus in the way you are putting forth your argument, you seem to be carrying a grudge about it all. You started this conversation. This is an internet board. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Can you direct me to a more positive place to have this discussion? Why don't you get back to your essential prep and leave this conversation for someone who cares? Ship has not sailed yet, that is the whole point.

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Re: Radical Exclusion

Post by jhimbo » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:04 pm

DrewDubious wrote: Well, not directly... But when you try to get a low income ticket, I am sure you realize those are only available because the rest of the people pay full price... it's not like the low income tickets holders cost the event planners any less...
Are you under the impression that this is a non-profit event? Hardly.

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