Countering blue flag abuse?

[Simon of the Playa]

i'll be gifting my services out as an asshole, or a prick, or just plain nasty to anyone who needs some east coast in their life.

these types of situations are perfect.


why get your knickers in a twist? Just come find me and i will deal with the 'flaggers'.....


consider it "performance art" since it is indeed, the one week of the year i can fly into temporary psychosis and call it that.

[AntiM]

Our Knight in Shining Snark. Pointy shiny snark.

[Ratty]

I love this thread it makes me relive the close proximity of my neighbors on different years. Sojourn and I use tents and art to keep the exhaust spewing, teeth jarring , wa shattering generator/RV from parking tailpipe to tailpipe with us.

[EspressoDude]

one potato, two potato......

sounds of silence

[Sunbeam56]

My vote is Super Soakers at 20 paces....

[Joeln]

My vote is Super Soakers at 20 paces....

Ahhhh, but what fluid shall we fill them with?

[Lonesomebri]

Going with the OP: This isn't about placed camps or the color of flag markings, or whatever. It's about people claiming big chunks of real-estate and holding them for people who are not there, while people who have made the effort to actually be there are denied the space. And it's using flimsy bs markings to claim turf. If it's a tent, or a trailer, an actual flag pole, or even chairs, ok. But plastic ribbons or plastic survey flags saving space for people who won't be here for days, bullshit. Yeah, this happened to me and I was not very happy about it. But at least for me it wasn't a commercial enterprise running me off, and they had a group of people there putting stuff up, but they had a whole outer blocked yellow ribboned off, open space, and people drifting in all week. That was the thing last year, I edged my truck into the yellow taped off block where there was a gap...turned out they had simply run out of ribbon there. And they have nothing to lose, cheap ribbon to rope off all the space in the world, claim people are going to show up sometime, and just have the org add additional outer streets.... I really don't see a solution, other than being a champ like the OP and standing ground, hell, let the other guy go get the ranger while you set up camp. Of course last year I folded after freaking out my newby burner craigslist respondent by mocking the land grabbers chillness. Where was the love? Got to set up near better people anyway..... Reading the other experiences here, I had it easy.

As an art project, removing yellow ribbons and plastic survey flags by moonlight has an appeal. Maybe while out trying to find my dog.

[Major Krash]

Look at the map before you set-up to avoid theme camp areas, and if anyone is nearby (and awake/sober) consider asking them about the neighborhood (not just "reservations" for friends, but sound camp plans and nearest potties). Best to avoid poaching theme camp spaces after monday unless the neighbor camps say it is OK (they sometimes know why the space is empty, like their truck broke down but they are arriving later that day). But sooner or later SOMEONE will fill that space, likely an RV, so better a real camp with SOMETHING to offer (that can often work when talking to the neighbors).

After that, and you are set-up, avoid the hassle of moving unless a Placer or Ranger asks you to move. Put the onus of locating the Placer or Ranger on them, if they want you to move. Sit back and enjoy a beverage while you chat with the neighbors about the supposed land grab and continue to enjoy your Burn.

[unjonharley]

I pull up in an open space to figure where I was.. AntieM and Larry were on me.. Like a duck on a junebug.. I had turn around in the theme camp..

[maladroit]

During setup, it's funny how every other burner is a filthy loud claim-jumping drunk asshole NON PARTICIPANT with some shitty-ass camping rig they got from Wal-Mart in Reno and will just leave it all on the playa after running a $50 Harbor Freight generator 24/7 for the week. Usually after you talk to them a couple minutes they're cool.

[Lonesomebri]

During setup, it's funny how every other burner is a filthy loud claim-jumping drunk asshole NON PARTICIPANT with some shitty-ass camping rig they got from Wal-Mart in Reno and will just leave it all on the playa after running a $50 Harbor Freight generator 24/7 for the week. Usually after you talk to them a couple minutes they're cool.

Yes, when they tell you to make yourself comfortable setting up your camp and offer you a beer from their generator cooled rig when finished, yes, they are not assholes. But back to the original post....

[AntiM]

I pull up in an open space to figure where I was.. AntieM and Larry were on me.. Like a duck on a junebug.. I had turn around in the theme camp..

Just me, Larry is quiet backup. Hushville is a big village, we look so open and inviting early in the week, we really do have people on the hoof for when the gate opens. Back when the opening was at midnight, we actually had to assign a perimeter watch with a clipboard of registered Hushers. Insane. Most folks are fine with moving, but one guy one year was very combative, told us we were bad burners for not sharing our village space with his RV. I literally hugged it out, my arms around him as we talked him down, because he was going to take swings any moment. He really had been awake a few too many hours behind the wheel.

[Captain Goddammit]

The only real problem with doing what I consider the right thing and telling people who insist you move out of "their" un-officially-placed space to fuck off is that you don't want to be their neighbors anyway. It's a problem that I dunno what to do about because allowing it to happen sucks too.

[maladroit]

The only real problem with doing what I consider the right thing and telling people who insist you move out of "their" un-officially-placed space to fuck off is that you don't want to be their neighbors anyway. It's a problem that I dunno what to do about because allowing it to happen sucks too.

It depends how far you've gotten into your camp setup, in my opinion. If you did the best you could to verify you weren't stepping on anyone's toes, it's after Gate opens, and it's not a theme camp area...if you're more than 50% done with your setup, tell them to go find someone from placement. Optionally offer them a cold beverage and some help with their setup, too. One neighbor with a case of the Mondays might be worth not devoting another 5 percent of your week to camp setup. If you have barely parked and someone comes rushing up to chase you off, then yeah...move along and forget it happened.

In the reverse situation, if there was an open unmarked space and I came back to find it occupied...C'est la vie. Marking the space with stuff will usually be enough to encourage people to find another space. If you need to reserve a totally unmarked space for someone coming in later, then you need to have someone there guarding the claim at all times.

[*Kat*]

During my first year me and my friend just wanted to park the car in a huge open space (not theme camp territory) to just sleep and find a good spot in the morning. This guy came and was really rude demanding we leave immediately. We left (no point in arguing with jerks) and ended up crushing next to some really awesome people (as we found out next morning). They are now our playa family and we reunite every year. I'm so glad that idiot chased us off or that might have been my first and only year on the playa.

I would not want to camp next to people who are asshats when you meet them already. Not that I don't think one should not cut everybody some slack - Sunday and Monday are stressful days after all. If you can't solve the problem while sitting down, having a beer and talking it through, you don't want to camp next to that person. Unless, of course, you are far along in your setup already.

[Token]

Why would you ever let a perfectly good crisis go to waste?

So much fun can be had with the clueless.

[DrYes]

We had someone blatantly plop down in our theme camp space last year on Tuesday (we had some people not arriving until Thursday), at night. Dad and his two daughters from Israel. No way was I going to make them pack their shit up again and move. Unless you're literally wall-to-wall in your camp and seriously don't have the room (rare - in many of the camps I've been in, there's at least some extra room), it's just the decent thing to do.

[maladroit]

I think the discussion above has condensed to the following rule: Don't be an asshole unless you're dealing with assholes.

[theCryptofishist]

All rules condense to that. But there are a billion ways of being an asshole that you end up having to add as addenda...

[maladroit]

Never thought of it that way, but you're right. I guess laws pretty much describe the various possible types of assholery and prescribe how much of an asshole you have to be in response.

[MyDearFriend]

During my first year me and my friend just wanted to park the car in a huge open space (not theme camp territory) to just sleep and find a good spot in the morning. This guy came and was really rude demanding we leave immediately. We left (no point in arguing with jerks) and ended up crushing next to some really awesome people (as we found out next morning). They are now our playa family and we reunite every year. I'm so glad that idiot chased us off or that might have been my first and only year on the playa.

I would not want to camp next to people who are asshats when you meet them already. Not that I don't think one should not cut everybody some slack - Sunday and Monday are stressful days after all. If you can't solve the problem while sitting down, having a beer and talking it through, you don't want to camp next to that person. Unless, of course, you are far along in your setup already.

This. It can usually wait until morning. I found an RV in our village access road late one Monday night; figured it could wait until morning. I was right. I brought them coffee, showed them where they were on the map, pointed out they were blocking our access, waved them goodbye. No issues.

We had someone blatantly plop down in our theme camp space last year on Tuesday (we had some people not arriving until Thursday), at night. Dad and his two daughters from Israel. No way was I going to make them pack their shit up again and move. Unless you're literally wall-to-wall in your camp and seriously don't have the room (rare - in many of the camps I've been in, there's at least some extra room), it's just the decent thing to do.

Hahahahaha if folks can find an empty space in our Village and want to hand over camp dues in cash, I am sure Doc & Felony would welcome them. But I would feel really weird about taking money like that.

[Dr. Pyro]

Hahahahaha if folks can find an empty space in our Village and want to hand over camp dues in cash, I am sure Doc & Felony would welcome them. But I would feel really weird about taking money like that.

I certainly wouldn't.

[ygmir]

Hahahahaha if folks can find an empty space in our Village and want to hand over camp dues in cash, I am sure Doc & Felony would welcome them. But I would feel really weird about taking money like that.

I certainly wouldn't.

seems that might hinge on the "office in back of RV interview and application process". yes?

[melodiousdirge]

Alright, so I hear the "official" message loud and clear, that if it's really an issue, go find a ranger/placer. If it comes to this, obviously you're already deep into PITA territory unfortunately.

I want to hear some more about the idea that once the gate opens, there are no more reserved spots. This makes a great deal of sense to me, and I'd love to see it be this way for my own selfish reasons. Of course I doubt this is how things are in reality; I can think of many scenarios in which one might take this approach and then wind up having to move camp. So how much weight is there to this? Are rangers sympathetic to this? Last year at 7:30 and K the guys with the BAAAHS/Woolbus had blocked out half of the space between J and K until halfway through the week, empty (and they were total dicks to us too, while they were at it). The guys from Sharkys were cool and let us encroach on their space a little bit when we asked, but there was about 40 minutes of debate while we figured out where to put our shit, and this was even with early entry. I would have loved some clarity on how exactly someone proves they have a claim and how this holds up with rangers and placers when it's dark and you can't see the flags, the map isn't the final word, and there's a lone douchebag is running everyone off who tries to camp on half a block of empty space.

[unjonharley]

all reserved spaces are clearly marked on the map you will receive at the gate... After the gate is opened the spaces marked on your map are still reserved for the likes of theme camps.. After to reserved marked spaces (on your map)..The rest are open to first come.. Try to be polite if you see a camp site marked by or for a private
party..That is still open ground but do not start a fight over a little dirt..

[maladroit]

there's a lone douchebag is running everyone off who tries to camp on half a block of empty space.

Just one guy guarding an acre of land? I have a hilarious vision of him running frazzled from one side to the other while claim-jumpers slowly encroach from all the borders. Can't stop watching, can't sleep for even one minute...that guy's burn sucked.

[melodiousdirge]

there's a lone douchebag is running everyone off who tries to camp on half a block of empty space.

Just one guy guarding an acre of land? I have a hilarious vision of him running frazzled from one side to the other while claim-jumpers slowly encroach from all the borders. Can't stop watching, can't sleep for even one minute...that guy's burn sucked.

Hahahaha, well, it was more or less the case from Sunday when we got to our spot around 9pm most of the way through Monday. I don't know if the people who finally took the space were actually part of the camp or if they just told them to fuck off.

[Eric]

I would have loved some clarity on how exactly someone proves they have a claim and how this holds up with rangers and placers when it's dark and you can't see the flags, the map isn't the final word, and there's a lone douchebag is running everyone off who tries to camp on half a block of empty space.

The Placer is the final word - find someone with a walkie-talkie (the Rangers are great for this), ask them to call your Placer so they know you have an issue. Have one person from your camp work with the Placer & the other camp - the Placer knows who's supposed to be where, and what the actual boundaries are. We've had to call our Placer the last two years, one about a boundary issue, one about another issue, they've been great, and as long as the person on your side has a cool head (regardless of how much of a "douchebag" the other camp is being) you should generally get a good resolution.

If it's night-time & the Placer isn't around, cool your jets until the morning (sleep in your vehicle, set up a tent in a "safe area", whatever), then deal with the problem.

[melodiousdirge]

all reserved spaces are clearly marked on the map you will receive at the gate.

That's a nice thought, but not always the case. I've had space conflicts on two separate occasions with theme camps that were not shown on the map to be using the space they claimed was theirs. I've also wound up camping in a spot that was marked as reserved on the map, but was not in fact flagged out or claimed by anyone. The nature of the event is just that the map isn't perfect; even the "final" one they give you at the gate.

[melodiousdirge]

cool your jets until the morning

Personally I think if it came to this I'd find another spot, but I guess in extreme cases this makes sense.