So why do you volunteer for the BMorg?

[Eric]

you also can't pretend it's misuse without also proving the stereotype of the American arrogant in his own ignorance.

There is no pretending going on - it's a willful misuse of the language we took from the English. Besides, you forget that as an American I don't think most other Americans speak the language correctly either. The only problem with the stereotype you have of us is that it doesn't go far enough.

[Jovankat]

That doesn't make any sense, you didn't *take* the language from the English, they still have it, so do a bunch of other countries. You can't say that your way is correct and anything that varies from that is misuse, that's just straight up not how language works. I mean if I were to come and study in the US I'd use US spelling in my essays because in that situation there is a right way to do it but when you're talking about the internet which is a global phenomenon or how a person expresses themselves in their own native language you can't tell them they're misusing your language because they're clearly not using your version of the language and it's in a context where you as a casual reader have no authority over how they express themselves. Seriously if you met someone from Northern Europe called Erik would you really be so bold as to tell them they spell their own name wrong?

[Eric]

aaaaaaand, Jovankat is missing the snark.

[Jovankat]

OH! Well that's ok then. I thought you were just stupid

[Eric]

OH! Well that's ok then. I thought you were just stupid

That's covered by being American.

[Jovankat]

Nah you guys don't have a monopoly that either. There's a very real danger when being snarky or sarcastic that people won't realise that's your intent and will just assume you're an idiot. It's happened to me a number of times. I'm not sure if it's because I don't telegraph the snark well enough or if it has to do with what my baseline is. A good friend told me once that my neutral expression was one of disdain....

[BBadger]

I think "maths" is really an abomination. It should have never been created. It's an affront to the language itself, not just to Americans. People use the word as if it's a plural of "math", but "math" means "mathematics" and "mathematics" is not a plural word (there is no such word as "mathematic") or a word that can be made plural (oh look at all those cute mathematicses!). So there is no point in saying something like "I know maths" rather than "I know math." Some people use "maths" to talk about math classes or mathematical studies, but that's like saying "I'm signed up for lots of genes" instead of "I'm signed up for lots of genetics courses." That highlights another problem with "maths": the ambiguity of the term. Does it mean "math courses"? "Math topics" such as algebra and calculus? The word "math" itself because an "s" was abused? What is that "s" doing there? Will people start using an apostrophe with it? Maybe then it'd be slightly more clear that it's a contraction and that they really mean "mathematics" and not some unfortunate false plural word.

So to me, using "maths" gives the impression that the person just doesn't know the word "mathematics" or how to use the word. He thinks that it's a plural word for something and yet doesn't know what specifically. It sounds like a word a hillbilly or caveman would use: "He know maths good!"

While we're on language-related pet-peeves: I can't stand it when people incorrectly pronounce words like "mature" with a pure "t" sound or "ty" sound, not a "tch" (t͡ʃ) sound. I suspect the practice has spread because people would hear some other hipster-doofus pronounce the word like that and adopt it themselves out of imitation, thinking it would make them sound sophisticated, rather than idiotic.

[Jovankat]

I feel similarly about the use of "math" BBadger, it sounds like an abomination to me, mathematics ends with an s therefore it makes complete sense that maths should too. It just sounds right to me. In countries that use maths it's used exactly the same way math is. So yes we say maths classes and that is completely acceptable and correct.

While you're totally entitled to assume that anyone using maths doesn't know how to use it outside of the US and Canada you would most likely be wrong.

As for the ty/tch sound in mature you're quite right but there's a very big difference between someone using incorrect pronunciation and someone using perfectly a correct (for their part of the world) word that you just happen to dislike.

[gaminwench]

I volunteer because I *likes* it.

[BBadger]

The "s" was probably dropped because the "s" doesn't roll off the tongue very well after the "th" in the word "math." "Maths" sounds like someone has a speech impediment. Try putting that before the word "is" such as "maths is hard". It sounds like Kaa the Python is talking.

[Jovankat]

Nope, sounds exactly like every single person I've ever had a conversation about maths with. Seriously, things get done differently in some places and that is ok. Don't make me tell you to calm down and then pat you on the head.

[FIGJAM]

I thought math was like fish.

The singular and the plural are the same.

Or maybe I'm just snarksish!!!

[Roundabout]

It is arrogent to think that language norms are or should be static. Language is in motion, always evolving. We can barely understand Shakespearian language, and that was the norm just a few hundred years ago.

BTW, epic thread drift.

[Aurelia]

yes, some smarts at last

[Jovankat]

It is arrogent to think that language norms are or should be static. Language is in motion, always evolving. We can barely understand Shakespearian language, and that was the norm just a few hundred years ago.

BTW, epic thread drift.

Yep.

[BoyScoutGirl]

I thought math was like fish.

The singular and the plural are the same.

"Fish" as a plural refers to multiple individuals of the same species of fish. "Fishes" refers to multiple species of fish collectively.

[Jovankat]

Fish is also both a noun and a verb

[Captain Goddammit]

It is arrogent to think that language norms are or should be static. Language is in motion, always evolving. We can barely understand Shakespearian language, and that was the norm just a few hundred years ago.

Yes but that perfectly illustrates why some uniformity is a good thing. WTF was Willy talking about?
Having order to words and patterns is what constitutes language, as opposed to random gibberish.

By the way, was the misspelling of "arrogant" seems comically ironic...

Language does need to evolve with the times, there are always new things in newer times. Shakespeare had no way to say "Someone on the internet just posted on an eplaya thread about solar panels on his RV feeding a charge controller that won't handle the electric load of his DVD player". New words like burning man's "do-ocracy" or "burgin" (actually I hate that one) come along.
Evolution is here to stay but we can't let these damn foreigners come outta nowhere and mess up proper American English.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

and the survey says:

[TT120]

Groupies.

[Eric]

Just as an FYI on language evolution, I highly recommend The Power of Babel; A Natural History of Language by John McWhorter. It's a fascinating look into languages in general, and how they grow & how words evolve & change (personal favorite: "silly" originally meant innocent, and there are 13th century poems to "the silly Virgin Mary"). It's a little out of date (published in 2000, so it doesn't cover how the internet is speeding up the changes in languages, or how it's speeding up the death of smaller ones), but a great place to dip your toes and learn more about how language works and the variations - like the use of "genders" for nouns, the use of required actions to go with verbs (rare, but in some languages you have to say specifically how you did an action "I cut the wood with an axe" or "I cut the wood with a saw" - but the action word become part of the verb - "I axecut the wood", "I sawcut the wood" - and there's a limited number of action words! ). It's actually written pretty breezy for its subject.


Sorry to crush your stereotypes Jovankat, but some American's are not only interested in the world around us, but we study it for fun

[BoyScoutGirl]

Here I was thinking the internet would stabilize language use, not cause it to evolve more rapidly. Didn't the invention and spread of moveable type greatly slow down the rate of change of written language (not pronunciation)? I'm not certain how the internet might be different. If I can communicate simultaneously with a Singaporean, an Indian, and a Kiwi, I imagine we're going to settle on some common linguistic grounds fairly quickly. That's why less frequently used languages are threatened by things like press and internet.

Of course new words are added with new technology, but I mean more the use of words.

[Eric]

Here I was thinking the internet would stabilize language use, not cause it to evolve more rapidly. Didn't the invention and spread of moveable type greatly slow down the rate of change of written language (not pronunciation)? I'm not certain how the internet might be different.

Word changes are literally happening as we speak, we just don't notice as much because we're all on the same page with the internet. (see what I did there? Bueller?).

Moveable type and dictionaries have frozen the spelling of words, but their pronunciation has gone on changing (laughter, aspirin, Wednesday: think how you really say them as opposed to how they're spelled: laf/ter, as/prin, Wens/day) - French is even worst than English on this. The modern pronunciation of French is pretty unhinged from the spelling: Joie de vivre is pronounced "jwa di veev" or "n'est-ce pas", pronounced "nes pa". The language will continue to change, just like it has with printed books all around (otherwise we'd still be speaking Jacobin English with new terms for more modern items)

[GreyCoyote]

"...I'll take BOOBS for $300, Alex..."

[theCryptofishist]

Besides, I don't think they were trying to do anything more than sound as pompous as possible to give their speculation weight it doesn't have.

Whatever else was going on, this certainly was. Which just gets me back to burners.meh. I used to be so pretentious in my youth... (yes! I was once even worse!) Now, seeing others trying to dazzle with pretention just makes me shudder--it looks so shoddy and pathetic. Ironically, this is how I feel about Larry Harvey's prose as well. I wonder how much being put in the same category with Larry would make the author feel...

[FIGJAM]

You're just like Larry!!!

How does that feel???

[Aurelia]

every time I think you are all pissers

it gets good again

[some seeing eye]

The entire event is based on volunteering on a variety of levels. The OP information is well known. I have received much more than I have spent for volunteering. I receive personal fulfillment by trying to improve the event as well.

[ygmir]

Here I was thinking the internet would stabilize language use, not cause it to evolve more rapidly. Didn't the invention and spread of moveable type greatly slow down the rate of change of written language (not pronunciation)? I'm not certain how the internet might be different.

Word changes are literally happening as we speak, we just don't notice as much because we're all on the same page with the internet. (see what I did there? Bueller?).

Moveable type and dictionaries have frozen the spelling of words, but their pronunciation has gone on changing (laughter, aspirin, Wednesday: think how you really say them as opposed to how they're spelled: laf/ter, as/prin, Wens/day) - French is even worst than English on this. The modern pronunciation of French is pretty unhinged from the spelling: Joie de vivre is pronounced "jwa di veev" or "n'est-ce pas", pronounced "nes pa". The language will continue to change, just like it has with printed books all around (otherwise we'd still be speaking Jacobin English with new terms for more modern items)

those dang French.........

[Captain Goddammit]

Ygmir you should try volunteering for the Org sometime