Very Very Large Monkey Hut Plans....

[Nefariis]

As a preface, we built a small one of these the last two years and the design worked great with no issues - however, this year we have twice the amount of people in our camp and we want to expand into something bigger (more epic). I had the design double checked with a structural engineer and he said in theory it should take anything the desert could throw at it, but he has never been to burningman. So, I want to get a second opinion from some actual burners who have possibly seen or built something this actual size.

The overall plan is 60' x 80' using 1.25" conduit (Attached is the plan).

The Plan has 3 guide ropes that run the length of the structures and secured to central points with ratchet straps.

It also has 8 ropes that run from one side to the other to secure the tarp between PVC ribs.

The idea behind the joints are that the 1.25" conduit fits into the coupling like normal, but then there is a piece of 1" pvc (8-10") that runs between them so solidify the joint. The 1" PVC would be cemented in on the opposite side of the coupling. From there, to keep the joints together, the rope that runs the length of the structure would go through a hole that was drilled through the coupling/1"PVC combo and then wrapped around the pipe and tied in a knot.

Not pictured are the tarp flaps that go on either end during dust storms.

In total the supply list would be:
20 - Rebar Stakes
54 - 1.25" Conduit
7 - 100" Ropes
22 - Ratchet Straps
2 - 40'x60' tarps

The only thing I can think of to make the structure stronger is to use 1.5" conduit instead, but I'm not sure if it would bend enough to create the arch. The arch itself is going to be less concave then 1" PVC structures because of the lack of flex (more like a contact lens than a dome). Also, I toyed with the idea of 5 guide ropes running the length of the structure (one for each joint).

Also, we are aware of the wind sail effect and to combat that we are actually lining up RV's on both sides of the structure (we have 6 RV's in our camp this year).

So tell me what you guys think - Has anyone built one this large before and is this safe enough for the playa?

[Drawingablank]

I recall reading about a similar sized MH that was PVC and anchored with large T posts. During a heavy wind one or more of the T posts sheared off at ground level (and those things are pretty tough) leaving the pipe to flail around.

I wish I could remember where I read it - probably in one of the older Monkey Hut threads.

[BBadger]

There comes a point where the gains made by utilizing cheap, makeshift materials are outweighed by other factors such as time, effort, and durability of materials (and of course safety). So I ask you: if you're going to put all this time and money into such a structure, why not invest in something a bit more durable and worthwhile like a dome or metal structure?

It's one thing to have a little shade structure made of PVC, tarps, and bungees for your tent. It's another to make that your construction medium of choice. A giant PVC hangar is about as "epic" as a giant shanty town or cardboard village for homeless people. Neat what people can do with so little, but ultimately a sad reflection of the lack of resources people have.

If you're hell-bent on monkey huts, why don't you just give people their own private monkey huts? Sometimes having walls is a good thing, and at least the individual monkey huts won't have the potential to collapse on the people inside. You can get creative with how they're laid out in the camp if you want it to look more interesting.

[Nefariis]

wait, where was the T-Post located?

@BBadger - I honestly don't view this as a make shift shade structure, I wouldn't have gone through the lengths to design, consult engineers, and double check with the BM community if it was. First and foremost I want this to be as safe as possible (hence the overkill on ropes and ratchet straps), and to be perfectly frank with you, I actually like the look of these more than geo-domes (I think geo-domes are both a waste of effort and money - also, the space they require is ridiculous - also, I think they are a pain in the ass to get in and out of - also, they are a giant pain in the ass to assemble and disassemble). Secondly, a shanty town with cardboard? - come on dude, that's kind of a stretch and a low blow - you have neither seen my previous hut's nor did I mention any of the decor that goes into them - please be helpful and not a jerk. Thirdly, not that it's any of your business, but my camp and I are doing fine in life and the resources going into the camp are not the issue - we just honestly like these (and think this will fit our purpose) better than a geo-dome. Lastly (and thank you for a suggestion), we did consider making individual hut's for people - but that would of increased the dues significantly and at that point we agreed that the camp would feel like a turn key camp - and that's exactly everything we don't want our camp to feel like. Anyways, sorry to rant - and I don't want this to come off harsh, I just wanted to better explain the reasoning why we are going with this particular shade structure.

[some seeing eye]

This is not advice, I am not a structural engineer, you have to take full responsibility for your decisions alone.

There is a good argument that your structure would fall under category 2 or 3 - 3 because of flying debris in a densely populated area. In Washoe the building code for those categories is 130 and 140 mph wind load. 60x80 feet could have as much force as over 41,000 pounds and over 48,000 pounds. Think of the largest sailboat in existence with that sail area. It does not use tarp sails or pvc pipe masts. The sails can be furled in high winds. You have a crew to immediately furl your tarps throughout the event, right? So have to agree with the excellent advice you are getting here: do not do.

Most larger shade structures on the playa use this type structure with shade cloth:


They have prices on their website.

[gaminwench]

I'm going to go counter to the wisdom...

This should work fine, (as long as you've strapped/staked it all down accordingly)
Oregon Country Fair fielded a BM camp for many years and they had 4 monster monkey huts that were this size, if not bigger.
Just check your points often and make certain, when the wind comes up the first time, to have someone knowledgeable check the entire structure for soundness.

[maladroit]

The amount of tie downs, ropes, and ratchet straps doesn't look like overkill AT ALL to me.

Especially if we're talking 100 foot ropes from Home Depot that are rated to no more than 250 pounds...and the orange ratchet straps from Home Depot rated to that-oughtta-hold-er.

What's your rebar rated to hold? How deep are you burying your tie down anchors? Etc.

The thing to keep in mind is this: You can't simply scale up the size of a monkeyhut and use all the same materials and methods. Each time you double the dimensions over a typical monkeyhut, you're SQUARING the wind load.

There are plenty of monkeyhut that have failed out there. Rebar ripped out of the ground, PVC snapped, ropes broken, and so on. If this happens to little 10'x10' monkeyhuts, why the confidence over something that will need to withstand 48 times more wind loading?

[maladroit]

And I'll make another comment to point out that you came in here asking for opinions on safety, and you're getting them. If you don't want to hear an answer you don't like, then don't ask the question and just go do whatever inside your RV fortress.

[Nefariis]

And I'll make another comment to point out that you came in here asking for opinions on safety, and you're getting them. If you don't want to hear an answer you don't like, then don't ask the question and just go do whatever inside your RV fortress.

Of course I came here for safety and advice, that's what I said in my original post and that's why I contacted a structural engineer - why else would I be here? The only comment that I knocked was the one that likened a monkey hut to a shanty town filled with cardboard which is obviously neither helpful nor constructive.

The stakes on the sides will be 2.5ft 5/8" rebar - so into the ground 2ft total. The stakes at the end will be 3ft 3/4" rebar.
The 1.25" conduit will have a 1" PVC sleeve for support - and that will slide over the 6" of rebar sticking out.
The rope will be 1/2" Diamond Braid which has a break load of about 1000 lbs
The ratchet straps have a break load of 1400 lbs

So here is the Old Plan

New Bitmap Image (2).png

Would this plan be better?

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It's more than doubling the strength of each rib.

Obviously this is stronger, but does it seem a little excessive? With 5 ropes running length wise and tied in a knot at each joint, I don't think the conduit could flex in the wind even if it wanted too.

[Token]

When you get to this kind if scale, PVC just doesn't cut it.

But, there is great news on alternatives. Agriculture has been using this design for decades and they call it a high-tunnel or hoop house. Google it.

Because it is a high-volume industry, prices for the steel version of the hut you want are rather affordable.

These are proven designs with actual structural engineers producing them!

If you have the means of transporting, go with a proven product.

What is your worst case scenario: you spend a mountain of cash on something that fails on day 1 after it's built and you have ZERO shade.

What's that worth to you?

[Drawingablank]

wait, where was the T-Post located?

The T post was located at the base of one of the ribs anchoring it to the ground in place of rebar.

I would be very reluctant to trust 3/4" rebar stakes on a structure that large. I've had several bend from the wind on my standard 10 x 12 monkey hut which catches a lot less air.

[VultureChow]

What about doing a more modular system with "bays" or wings. Say 4 10x20" monkeys as the north south east and west wings with a central social shade structure.

[misfit]

a few years ago i witnessed a 12' x 25' hut, that was tied, guyed, staked and with 1.5 PVC catch a wind at an angle that corkscrewed and flipped it. good luck on your design. imagine building such a structure in the high heat of day with prevailing winds. seriously, have fun with your camp, you'll do fine......

[Nefariis]

a few years ago i witnessed a 12' x 25' hut, that was tied, guyed, staked and with 1.5 PVC .

Couldnt of been 1.5" PVC, even with 6 sections (60ft) we couldnt get it to arc enough. Also any insight as to what he was staking it down with? the fact the the PVC didn't snap is actually fairly promising - thicker/longer rebar stakes is easy enough to change in the plans. Also, another thing to remember there will be RV's lining both sides of the hut, the hut will be lower then the RVs, the camp will also not be at the edges of the city, and there will be slits in the tarpaulin. What ever winds get past the city will just hit the RV's like it did the last 2 years we built these huts.

Also, I've decided I'm just going to hire a 3rd party structural engineer. I'll have him actually do the math with the materials I am planning on using to find the failure point of the structure - I've never been a fan of speculation. After this week there will be definitive plans on the internet for a working large scale hut.

[skippy3k]

Also, I've decided I'm just going to hire a 3rd party structural engineer.

Really? Wow. And I thought I was going overboard this year.

[Eric]

After this week there will be definitive plans on the internet for a working large scale hut.

Fixed that.

Until it's actually held up to a week of real playa conditions, I wouldn't grant it the "working" appellation. After all, structural engineers designed this, and it didn't work quite as planned:

[media]

[misfit]

>>>>Couldnt of been 1.5" PVC<<<<

yea, it was 1.5 pvc, staked with 16" cement stakes and held with climbers rope. covered with a single piece of pink fabric tied to frame with bungees. i suppose their biggest fault was tieing the fabric to the frame. sounds like you have put alot of thought into your camp, nice work. see you on playa...........

[theCryptofishist]

My physicist father was the first person to tell me about Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
... and it will fall into the same river.

[Nefariis]

After this week there will be definitive plans on the internet for a working large scale hut.

Fixed that.

Until it's actually held up to a week of real playa conditions, I wouldn't grant it the "working" appellation. After all, structural engineers designed this, and it didn't work quite as planned:
Video

Haha, I actually live pretty close to that bridge (while you are at it, you should look up the I-90 floating bridge).

But - for every one video you post of an engineering mishap I could post a 1000 of an engineering marvel... skyscrapers themselves are mostly sorcery : )

yea, it was 1.5 pvc, staked with 16" cement stakes and held with climbers rope. covered with a single piece of pink fabric tied to frame with bungees. i suppose their biggest fault was tieing the fabric to the frame.

Thank you, this is actually really useful information.

What about doing a more modular system with "bays" or wings. Say 4 10x20" monkeys as the north south east and west wings with a central social shade structure.

We designed a couple of these as well, we just thought that we could build a stronger structure with less material and more habitable sq footage with one long half cylinder.

Really? Wow. And I thought I was going overboard this year.

.

Like everyone said, its about safety - also it would suck to not have shade for the last 3-4 days ..... (also, I would rather pay $300 than to hear "I told you so")

[BBadger]

@BBadger - I honestly don't view this as a make shift shade structure, I wouldn't have gone through the lengths to design, consult engineers, and double check with the BM community if it was.

Secondly, a shanty town with cardboard? - come on dude, that's kind of a stretch and a low blow - you have neither seen my previous hut's nor did I mention any of the decor that goes into them - please be helpful and not a jerk.

I applaud your attention to safety, but yes, a shanty. This is the difference between an old farm shed, and a home made from the same materials. Don't get me wrong, I think the monkey hut itself is a great idea (I've made and used them myself) -- but what you're making is not a monkey hut anymore. Instead, you're making a large hangar-like structure from plastic water piping, straps and tarps. It is akin to making a mansion from corrugated roofing and scrap lumber -- great for a shed, but if you're making a home out of this stuff you're creating a shanty.

You're also forgetting the whole reason a monkey hut works: it's relying on the fact that PVC piping is not a structural material, but rather a bendy piece of plastic that will remain anchored enough to not break and blow away. Here you are treating the PVC as some sort of cheap structural material. That's a recipe for disaster. You're entirely missing the point of PVC's usage in a monkey hut -- and why people aren't building everything out of PVC piping instead of real building materials.

Again, you're putting all this work into some great big structure, but at the end of the day what you have is a rickety extrapolation of a monkey hut. Spend your time, effort, money, and future safety on something worthwhile.

[FIGJAM]

[Nefariis]

That's awesome figjam.

The 2x4's on the side is genius

Can you tell me about the stakes you used? if you used ropes on the side like in my plans?

It looks like you used 4-10ft sections of PVC - Did you run the rope through the cross sections of pvc?

[FIGJAM]

Not my elephant!!!

I don't wanna work that hard to set up.

I knew I'd seen pics of some oversized huts somewhere, so I google it.

There's one without the 2x4s, with blue tarp, and 4 tents abreast inside.

Couldn't find it.