Health Department Permits

[remi]

Hi, I was browsing through the Jackrabbit speaks newsletter, and I'm just curious about one thing:

Were permits always needed for any camp/person gifting food? I've helped create meals for large groups on the playa, and I've gifted food and drink on the playa without even considering obtaining one of these permits. Is this required even if I plan on gifting freshly cooked bacon? What about if I bring a shit tonne of Ketchup Chips (typically not available in the USA.)??? Do I need to show people my permit if I plan to gift candy, or a beer? I went to the Barbie Death Camp and gifted a yukaflux.. is everyone at this potluck suppose to have a permit, or is just the event holder (dr.pyro,) suppose to have one? Or is this something we all just ignore? (Add "I'm just kidding, we would never ignore a rule like this" disclaimer here.)

This is a copy/paste from the newsletter:

If you are planning to make and give away food or drinks to the public on the playa including fresh squeezed juice, coffee with dairy, or even snow cones, you need a permit. Here's the scoop from Ellen Kunz, Environmental Health Specialist with the Nevada State Health Divisions Public Health and Clinical Services Environmental Health Program:

"In order to fight the threat of food-borne illness on the playa, the Nevada State Health Division (NSHD) has requirements for camps preparing food including the need of a health permit and an inspection. You must apply for and be permitted as a Temporary Food Establishment by the NSHD if:
1. You will be cooking or serving food to large groups of more than 125 FELLOW CAMPERS of your camp on a consistent basis. (If you have a communal kitchen shared by 125 or more campers, but meals are prepared individually, or in smaller quantities than for 125 persons, a permit is not required, however we highly recommend you research and review safe food handling practices, starting with the Nevada State Division of Health information.)
2. You wish to share, cook or serve food or non-alcoholic beverages to the general Burning Man population (gifting food).

[BoyScoutGirl]

I believe the key word is if you make and give away food. So if I pour you a soda, that needs no permit. But if I want to slice a lemon to put in that soda, then I need a permit because I'm handling and preparing food. Under my interpretation, giving out candy or chips is fine because they're pre-packaged and you didn't prepare them. If you make bacon and gift it to people outside your camp (or in your camp if it's >125 campers), then you need a permit.

At a guess, the meet 'n' greet is not serving the public; it's a private potluck.

Also, note that while a person's name is on the permit, the permitting process involves an inspection of a particular space. You can't get a permit if they can't inspect the space the food is/will be prepared in.

[Eric]

I believe the key word is if you make and give away food. So if I pour you a soda, that needs no permit. But if I want to slice a lemon to put in that soda, then I need a permit because I'm handling and preparing food. Under my interpretation, giving out candy or chips is fine because they're pre-packaged and you didn't prepare them. If you make bacon and gift it to people outside your camp (or in your camp if it's >125 campers), then you need a permit.

At a guess, the meet 'n' greet is not serving the public; it's a private potluck.

Also, note that while a person's name is on the permit, the permitting process involves an inspection of a particular space. You can't get a permit if they can't inspect the space the food is/will be prepared in.

This sums it up pretty much dead on - except that you would need a permit to pour that soda you used in your example. You wouldn't need one to just give someone the can. I think it's geared more towards fruit juices, but the way it's written I would err on the side of caution.

2. You wish to share, cook or serve food or non-alcoholic beverages to the general Burning Man population (gifting food).

Gifting someone a bag of ketchup chips (wtf are those??) wouldn't need a permit - opening the bag to gift smaller portions would.

[BoyScoutGirl]

Thanks for the correction, Eric. I wondered about the "non-alcoholic beverages" part, but I assumed that meant making beverages (smoothies, fruit juices) or things that can spoil (anything with milk). I shouldn't have assumed, and now I know better!

[FossaFerox]

There was something in the JRS that ran counter to what I remember reading in the past. I was under the impression that once a drink was alcoholic where it came from was irrelevant. I thought it was a blanket policy that bars (so long as they exclusively serve alcoholic drinks) are exempt from the health department permits. However, the JRS specifically mentioned using fresh fruit juice in alcoholic drinks as being a permit-requiring activity. Anyone know where the truth lies?

This is extremely relevant as my camp is serving hard lemonade and we planned to use fresh lemon slices for people we liked those first few days.

[Jackass]

Dude..,sounds as though you'll be needing a permit then.

[Eric]

There was something in the JRS that ran counter to what I remember reading in the past. I was under the impression that once a drink was alcoholic where it came from was irrelevant. I thought it was a blanket policy that bars (so long as they exclusively serve alcoholic drinks) are exempt from the health department permits. However, the JRS specifically mentioned using fresh fruit juice in alcoholic drinks as being a permit-requiring activity. Anyone know where the truth lies?

This is extremely relevant as my camp is serving hard lemonade and we planned to use fresh lemon slices for people we liked those first few days.

Fresh juice (as opposed to coming in a can or bottle) requires a Health Permit, and the fresh lemon slices absolutely require a permit. You're going to be squeezing the lemons to make the juice, right? Needs a permit. Cutting the lemons to make the slices? Needs a permit. You need to show that you have a sanitary set-up, and that you're doing due-diligence to keep the general population from getting food poisoning.

The only way your bar can get around it is bottled/canned lemonade with your bottled booze, no fresh slices of anything served with it. If a bar even wants to toss a lime wedge in a cocktail they need a food permit (and cutting/ prepping the fruit off-playa isn't allowed, because the Nevada Dep't of Health has no way to know if it was done in a sanitary manner)

[Eric]

Oh - vodka lemonade & limeade are my favorite drinks out there. If you choose to go the bottled route, "Santa Cruz" brand makes really good lemonade & limeade.

[FossaFerox]

We'll likely be looking at lemon concentrate, vodka, water, and sugar then. If you care to help us experiment with the ratio on Sunday please stop by! E@9:15.

[Eric]

We'll likely be looking at lemon concentrate, vodka, water, and sugar then. If you care to help us experiment with the ratio on Sunday please stop by! E@9:15.

The googlebox strikes again:
Pour 3/4 cup of sugar or granulated sugar substitute into your 2 qt. pitcher. You can always add more later if it is too tart, but start with 3/4 cup.
Shake the container of lemon juice concentrate before using. Pour 1 cup of juice into the pitcher.
Add 6 1/2 cups cold water and mix thoroughly. Taste. If necessary, add up to 1/4 cup sugar (or more, depending on your preference).
Add your cold vodka, to taste & strength preference. Keep the vodka on ice in a cooler to keep the lemonade tasting better - you can do it with warm vodka, but... yeah. It's definitely a playa drink then. Buy the best vodka your bar can afford - the Kirkland vodka from CostCo is surprisingly good - I use it at home & on the playa. At least equal to Svedka, but much, much cheaper.


I use the Santa Cruz lemonade I mentioned (probably too expensive for a bar, even on sale) & just mix that & vodka (25%(ish) vodka/ 75% (ish) lemonade during the day, as high as 50/50 at night, but I only bring about 16oz with me for the night)

[FossaFerox]

... I'm well aware I can google a recipe. That was a sly way of inviting you to stop by. Or it was supposed to be, anyway.

[Jovankat]

As far as I can see remi didn't get an answer to the question of how long health department permits have been required. I've seen a quite a few people talk about them as if they were a new thing this year, which I know isn't the case, but I only know they were around last year not when they first became a requirement

[FossaFerox]

There was something in the JRS that ran counter to what I remember reading in the past. I was under the impression that once a drink was alcoholic where it came from was irrelevant. I thought it was a blanket policy that bars (so long as they exclusively serve alcoholic drinks) are exempt from the health department permits. However, the JRS specifically mentioned using fresh fruit juice in alcoholic drinks as being a permit-requiring activity. Anyone know where the truth lies?

This is extremely relevant as my camp is serving hard lemonade and we planned to use fresh lemon slices for people we liked those first few days.

Fresh juice (as opposed to coming in a can or bottle) requires a Health Permit, and the fresh lemon slices absolutely require a permit. You're going to be squeezing the lemons to make the juice, right? Needs a permit. Cutting the lemons to make the slices? Needs a permit. You need to show that you have a sanitary set-up, and that you're doing due-diligence to keep the general population from getting food poisoning.

The only way your bar can get around it is bottled/canned lemonade with your bottled booze, no fresh slices of anything served with it. If a bar even wants to toss a lime wedge in a cocktail they need a food permit (and cutting/ prepping the fruit off-playa isn't allowed, because the Nevada Dep't of Health has no way to know if it was done in a sanitary manner)

Jumping back though, the state of Nevada says differently.

http://health.nv.gov/PDFs/BFHS/BM/Burni ... ervice.pdf

We do not require permitting for bars serving only alcoholic beverages.

So an alcoholic beverage made with fresh fruit juice shouldn't be an issue by their standards...

[Eric]

Jumping back though, the state of Nevada says differently.

http://health.nv.gov/PDFs/BFHS/BM/Burni ... ervice.pdf

We do not require permitting for bars serving only alcoholic beverages.

So an alcoholic beverage made with fresh fruit juice shouldn't be an issue by their standards...

If you're squeezing the juice, yes, it is an issue. The alcohol isn't, it's the fresh juice part - note how non-alcoholic part is emphasized on the Burning Man site, and that the quote you use above says "only alcoholic beverages":

2. You wish to share, cook or serve food or non-alcoholic beverages to the general Burning Man population (gifting food).

emphasis mine

Your fresh juice is non-alcoholic, it's just being combined with alcohol.

You best go to the source to make sure. This is from the Burning Blog Health & Safety release:

ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Please contact Ellen Kunz (775) 623-6588 or email her at [email protected].

The critical part will be if you're making the lemonade from scratch (real lemons being squeezed), but I would even ask about making it in quantity from concentrate. There is mixing, multiple measuring devises being used, containers that need to be cleaned between batches... that might qualify as needing a permit. It's a fairly painless process, and everyone I know who's worked with them has had little to no trouble - it's common sense & basic rules.

Also, I'll look you up if I make it over to that side of the city - like I said, lemonade & booze are my favorite drinks out there. One day I'm going to get a nice, high quality rum and make something a little fancier than the vodka lemonades.

[Sunbeam56]

Getting a permit isnt hard. If you initial app is faulty, ms Kunz, head if the opp will let you correct it.
I got confirmation for mine - will pick it up when i arrive!
Bacon tamales!!!

[Jovankat]

It's not about being hard it's about FREEDOM!!!

This was the beginnings of a very long and very silly thread in the Burning Man Facebook group the other day

Read something recently in the Jackrabbit that if you're giving away food on the playa you have to apply for a permit. However, if government (you know, by the people and for the people) insists on treating a us as a festival city, perhaps we should respond with our "citizenry" effectively voting and passing a resolution that does away with bureaucracy and permits where they don't need to be. We aren't changing Nevada state code, just amending it to reduce government intrusion where it's not necessary. Thoughts on this one? We are, after all, Nevada's third largest city.

[chuckularone]

Yeah, um... That's gonna work...

[GreyCoyote]

BRC may be a really big "city" (for all of 10 days a year), but there is no voter base. Just as a guess, I'll say maybe 5% of the BRC "population" is a Nevada resident with voting rights, and all the rest come from all points of the compass. (Warning: Wild assed guess. I could look at the census, but I really don't care enough at the moment).

No votes = no voice = little ability to change those pesky government codes and regulations. This is the way politics works.

The other way politics works, is you put a face on an organization and have the lawyers write letters, attend meetings, cut a few backroom deals, and grease the occasional palm. This is what the BMOrg is for, and IMHO, it handles this aspect pretty well. TTITD still happens every year, and all those little tin-hat dictators get dealt with either very quietly, or not-so-quietly. But they DO get dealt with.

So depending on how you look at it, BM is either a powerless victim of the corrupt and unjust system, or it's the 800-lb gorilla that successfully carved-out a nice niche in the desert.

[remi]

At a guess, the meet 'n' greet is not serving the public; it's a private potluck.

So, permits are required when cooking food for the general public (radically inclusive meals,) but not for private meals like the radically exclusive meet n great for all of us super burners.. even tho the meet n greet can have more people attending it then the inclusive meats?

Gifting someone a bag of ketchup chips (wtf are those??) wouldn't need a permit - opening the bag to gift smaller portions would.

So I'll make sure to gift you a bag if I see you Eric.. you better eat them all or you'll need a permit to gift the rest away!



I just didn't know there were these types of regulations at burning man. I love not getting sick, but I don't want someone to have to pay more money for a permit gift food. Perhaps we can start our own 'in-playa' health committee camp that could be in charge of this.. thus waving the fees. Hell.. I'll join. I'll go around and make sure all the food places are clean.. Hell. I'll even taste test ALL THE BACON!!!!

[FIGJAM]

It's BLMs yard, so they make the rules.

I don't think it's entirely up to the sate or county.

[Just_Joe]

I'm extremely wary of Playa prepared foods, even in my own camp.
The last thing I want to do out there is spend two days in the JOTS because someone offered me a Quesadilla.
Requiring Food Permits are may not make everything rainbows and unicorns, but at least they help the camps that are generously gifting food to become more aware of the risks and help them formulate a plan to minimize them.

[remi]

Yeah, I totally get that. I hope I didn't come off as someone who is opposed to this. I think it's extremely important to raise awareness to food safety. I think that's the same reason they're allowing feathers on the playa now.. because they can raise awareness to how they should be properly used to minimize moop, where as before it was just a "no feathers."... that's it.

I was more/less curious, by the way it's worded out, technically they could ask you for a permit for anyone gifting any amount of food that has been prepared in some way. I'm betting it's directed towards larger events.

I'm extremely wary of Playa prepared foods, even in my own camp.
The last thing I want to do out there is spend two days in the JOTS because someone offered me a Quesadilla....

That's terrible! You only have a week-ish on the playa. I'd hate to spend over a quarter of that time ill over poorly made food.

[VultureChow]

Full on food poisoning is pretty rare. I've only had it once and it was truly a miserable experience.

I tailgate and camp, and I don't think I've ever turned anything down for fear of food poisoning. Nor have I ever gotten sick from them. Given the past few years of outbreaks, you are more likely to get sick from fresh, uncooked vegetables than meats, cheeses or any processed foods.

[Eric]

I was more/less curious, by the way it's worded out, technically they could ask you for a permit for anyone gifting any amount of food that has been prepared in some way. I'm betting it's directed towards larger events.

70,000 people isn't large enough?
They give us plenty of leeway around the permits - if you're only cooking for your camp, and it's 124 people or less, no need for a permit (though it's a good idea to know what they require just for general food safety); if you're serving alcohol with mixers that come out of a can or a jar, no need for a permit; if it's pre-packaged, no need for a permit. It only comes into play when there is actual food prep going on, and the food that is being made is for a camp of 125 or more, or being served to the general public, or if a bar wants to serve a fresh mixer or slices of limes (etc) with the drinks.

I tailgate and camp, and I don't think I've ever turned anything down for fear of food poisoning. Nor have I ever gotten sick from them. Given the past few years of outbreaks, you are more likely to get sick from fresh, uncooked vegetables than meats, cheeses or any processed foods.

With tailgating the food is generally kept at home, in a fridge or freezer with full power, until used. With camping, you're dealing with the same situation as the "less than 125 people" situation - the permits take that into account. I've visited friends who cooked in their camp & shared with me, they didn't have a permit - but they weren't making enough to hand it out to dozens or hundreds of people either.

People can scream "government intrusion into my daily life" all they want - like JustJoe said, that "intrusion" is the thing that keeps us from wasting part of our week with the runs. I've had full-blown food poisoning a couple of times in the comfort of my own home, and it was miserable - I can't imagine going through that suffering in a blue room.

[VultureChow]

My reaction was to Just_Joe's comment about being wary of gifted food. I'm totally fine with the Dept of Health regulations.

If the camp next door is making food for themselves and offer you some, it's probably fine. But feel free to turn it down. I might pass on the oysters, but a packaged tortilla grilled with processed cheese inside might give you a heart attack, but it's unlikely to give you food poisoning.

[theCryptofishist]

It's BLMs yard, so they make the rules.

I don't think it's entirely up to the sate or county.

BLM doesn't "make up" the rules. They are the same as apply to other federally owned land.
And the county does get to enforce their health code. Has been able to for years that I know of.

[GreyCoyote]

I got roofied this year at Flipside. Talk about a neurological smackdown. So out of an abundance of caution this year at TTITD I will likely pass on any food or drink that isnt from my own camp or from someone I know.

Once bitten = Twice wiser.

Yeah, this is an extreme reaction, but its sort of like having the trots: you just dont need to repeat the experience for a while.

There are reasons for the health codes. Good reasons. And I for one will not be in line to ridicule them.

[theCryptofishist]

You are free to die of dysentary...