LED strips; IP65 vs IP67 vs IP68

[melodiousdirge]

Hello all. There is a daunting variety of LED strips available online, with an inexplicable variation in price points (from $20 to $200 for something with the same specs). Wattage, SMD chip type, PCB color, RGB, RGBW, RGBWW... blah blah blah. What I want to ask though is about the common physical configurations available. There are 4 commonly available levels of water/dustproofing available:

• Non-Waterproof - Bare PCB with an adhesive back
• IP65 - splash/weather resistant, basically just a silicone bead protecting the PCB and components from the elements.
• IP67 - Waterproof, not to be submerged - the bare pcb inside a rectangular silicone tube, fully encapsulating the strip.
• IP68 - Suitable for operation continuously submerged - Silicone tube encapsulating the strip, also filled with silicone sealant for the strength and protection of both the ip65 and ip67 methods.

Now anything better than IP65 will work for me, but I'm more interested in physical durability. I want to sew the strips into a garment, and so they will have to put up with a lot of flexing and pulling. I'm wondering if anyone has worked with these varieties a lot, and whether you can comment on how rugged the various types of strips are. Last year my gf used an IP65 strip in her jacket and it worked great (though the connector broke after one day), but I used IP65 strips inset into my boots and they broke where the boots flexed. IP67 or 68 seem like better options for sewing into a garment but I don't want it to be so rigid that the flexing breaks the copper traces in the strips.

Does anyone have input on these?

[melodiousdirge]

For Reference:

[Gazmatron]

I have a few strips attached to my coat. Breakages are inevitable so I take a gas soldering iron and plenty of spares, but I have had relatively good results with the IP65 gel coat stuff. I glue 10mm velcro to the back of the strip, and then fix the other side of the velcro to my coat. This makes it easier to work with and to replace small sections of strip when it gets damaged.

I've used IP67 (silicone tube) before and had more breakages than with IP65. That said, most of my breakage issues with IP67 were with the joints at the ends of the strips. When I switched to IP65 I fixed this by running the velcro slightly longer than the strip and putting a blob of epoxy over the solder and wires at each end to give it some strain-relief. The change in design did more to help than the change of type of strip.

Remember that LED strip isn't designed for constant flexing. The PCB cracks fairly easily irrespective of the type of coating. You need to attach it in such a way as to minimise the amount of flexing and strain on it.

[melodiousdirge]

I have a few strips attached to my coat. Breakages are inevitable so I take a gas soldering iron and plenty of spares, but I have had relatively good results with the IP65 gel coat stuff. I glue 10mm velcro to the back of the strip, and then fix the other side of the velcro to my coat. This makes it easier to work with and to replace small sections of strip when it gets damaged.

I've used IP67 (silicone tube) before and had more breakages than with IP65. That said, most of my breakage issues with IP67 were with the joints at the ends of the strips. When I switched to IP65 I fixed this by running the velcro slightly longer than the strip and putting a blob of epoxy over the solder and wires at each end to give it some strain-relief. The change in design did more to help than the change of type of strip.

Remember that LED strip isn't designed for constant flexing. The PCB cracks fairly easily irrespective of the type of coating. You need to attach it in such a way as to minimise the amount of flexing and strain on it.

That's great info, thanks. Yeah I know the constant flexing is not the intended design for it. I was thinking the tube might work better just because it can move without necessarily pulling and stretching on the PCB part. I like the velcro idea; I might have to do that actually. I've been kind of struggling with how to put the stuff into the coat and not completely lose the ability to ever wash the coat. Velcro would help with that. Did you find the velcro was enough to make it stay put, or did you have to adjust and re-stick frequently?

[Gazmatron]

No worries! ...As you say, the silicone tube is a loose fit, so it does have a bit more give with a tight bend radius and/or movement. With my particular design I think I get more benefit from having the strip fully supported and bonded directly to the velcro, as I run the strips vertically and the PCB gradually used to slide down inside the tube as I moved around, but then they are quite long lengths, so weight is a factor.

If you go with the silicone and velcro you will discover silicone is a bitch to glue. You'll need an activator to wipe onto the silicone first. When using IP67+velcro I used cyanoacrylate+activator kit, which is obviously not a flexible glue, but I found using a dot every few inches worked fine so it could flex between the joins. The velcro is very strong - never had any issues with it.

[melodiousdirge]

No worries! ...As you say, the silicone tube is a loose fit, so it does have a bit more give with a tight bend radius and/or movement. With my particular design I think I get more benefit from having the strip fully supported and bonded directly to the velcro, as I run the strips vertically and the PCB gradually used to slide down inside the tube as I moved around, but then they are quite long lengths, so weight is a factor.

If you go with the silicone and velcro you will discover silicone is a bitch to glue. You'll need an activator to wipe onto the silicone first. When using IP67+velcro I used cyanoacrylate+activator kit, which is obviously not a flexible glue, but I found using a dot every few inches worked fine so it could flex between the joins. The velcro is very strong - never had any issues with it.

Cool, well I'm thinking IP65 now. I like the IP68 strips best but they are considerably more expensive. The IP65 strips come with a 3M double sided adhesive on them already, but I think I'll also sew the strip to the velcro so there's some mechanical support. Thanks again for the input! no substitute for some personal experience.

[oscillator]

I have found the 1P65 RGB 5050 strips are prone to breaking one or more colors in 3-LED sections, even with gentle handling. Annoying to find that your otherwise perfect strip of colors has 3 Red LEDs out somewhere in the middle.

Also, the "adhesive" is really only suitable for positioning the strips on your material, don't expect it to hold up in the hot sun.

Use E6000 adhesive or other means to attach the strips to your host material.

HtHs,

-OSC

[melodiousdirge]

Yeah I'm a little worried about that issue... I know myself and it would annoy me as well. I don't want to spend my days soldering. I was planning on using the adhesive as you say, just to position the lights, and then sewing them in place with loops over the LED strip.

Kind of surprised that there's not just as many round rope style LED strings available. I'm envisioning two of the IP65 strips stuck back to back with stranded conductors instead of printed copper traces. I guess most people use them for accent lighting, and not making light up furry coats.

[melodiousdirge]

Anyone know if the IP68 strips come with adhesive backing? The more I look at these the more I think the adhesive backing is just going to present a pain in the arse.

[melodiousdirge]

You'll need an activator to wipe onto the silicone first.

Hi again. On the off chance you're still watching this thread... I went with the IP68 (because fuck it all anyway, it's only money, right?). I decided that your velcro idea was pretty damn skippy, so I'm going that way. Right now I'm debating between:

• Stitching the strip to the velcro (loops only, no holes poked through the strip of course)
• Using a CA type glue with activator. Unfortunately the only firm data I could find was for Loctite 401 (around $30 a bottle) plus activator 770 (another $30). Is there a cheaper alternative? I don't feel like dropping $60 on a tiny bottle of glue with a short shelf life.
• Using an RTV silicone with good bonding rating to other cured silicone products. The cheapest option I could find is Loctite Superflex or Loctite 5900. I think superflex is available at the hardware store, I'll have to look.

A couple of people have mentioned E6000, which should work, based on it being a CA glue, though it would work better with a surface activator (does such a thing exist for this stuff)? I'm reluctant to use it just based on it's craft store lack of actual information (I'm a nerd, I like data sheets or at least anecdotal evidence of it working well for someone else).

[Gazmatron]

You'll need an activator to wipe onto the silicone first.

Hi again. On the off chance you're still watching this thread... I went with the IP68 (because fuck it all anyway, it's only money, right?). I decided that your velcro idea was pretty damn skippy, so I'm going that way. Right now I'm debating between:

• Stitching the strip to the velcro (loops only, no holes poked through the strip of course)
• Using a CA type glue with activator. Unfortunately the only firm data I could find was for Loctite 401 (around $30 a bottle) plus activator 770 (another $30). Is there a cheaper alternative? I don't feel like dropping $60 on a tiny bottle of glue with a short shelf life.
• Using an RTV silicone with good bonding rating to other cured silicone products. The cheapest option I could find is Loctite Superflex or Loctite 5900. I think superflex is available at the hardware store, I'll have to look.

A couple of people have mentioned E6000, which should work, based on it being a CA glue, though it would work better with a surface activator (does such a thing exist for this stuff)? I'm reluctant to use it just based on it's craft store lack of actual information (I'm a nerd, I like data sheets or at least anecdotal evidence of it working well for someone else).

Hey dude, note - there are two very different materials in use depending on the type of strip. In your earlier photo, the IP67 is encased in a silicone rubber tube. The tube is not actually bonded to the strip. This type of rubber will almost certainly need an activator.

However, you say you went the IP68. I've not used that type before, but I'm guessing it's similar to the IP65 in that it uses an soft, flexible, epoxy gel (not silicone rubber) that is actually bonded to the strip. If this is the case, you probably won't need an activator (that's just if using the silicone rubber tube). I think the gel-coated strip will bond relatively easily using a variety of glues. I know CA will because I've glued my fingers to it before

As I use the IP65 I've not deliberately tried gluing anything directly to the gel-coat before. The gel doesn't seem particularly difficult to bond so I think most decent glues will be ok, To be clear, is the strip you have gel-coated back and front?

[melodiousdirge]

It's hard to say what the material is. All the ads for this stuff say the tubing is silicone, and that the IP68 is placed inside a tube and then filled with silicone, though I really can't imagine them actually making it that way (why not just extrude it all together as one piece? It definitely has a clear, rectangular rubber encasement that covers all sides of the strip. Anyway I'm going to run some tests tonight. It certainly FEELS like silicone rubber but that's hardly scientific now is it :p

[Gazmatron]

My bad. I just googled it and you are correct, the IP68 does indeed look like silicone! ...it just looked like gel in the photo

[Gazmatron]

You will almost certainly need an activator to bond the silicone. RTV sealant stuff probably won't work - it didn't for me anyway, but might be worth a test as it's cheap and plentiful.

I will try and find the brand I used. However, you could try something like this that I just found:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-Plas ... /100371829

You'd only need a dab every couple of inches, so it wouldn't be expensive to just test it and a tube would go a long way

[melodiousdirge]

You will almost certainly need an activator to bond the silicone. RTV sealant stuff probably won't work - it didn't for me anyway, but might be worth a test as it's cheap and plentiful.

I will try and find the brand I used. However, you could try something like this that I just found:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-Plas ... /100371829

You'd only need a dab every couple of inches, so it wouldn't be expensive to just test it and a tube would go a long way

Well I found a silicone (DAP kitchen and bath, white) that bonds quite well to the silicone strip, buuuuuuut doesn't stick to my velcro. *facepalm*

I decided I was going to cut 2" strips of the hook side of the velcro and wrap it around the LED strip and hot glue it to itself. This works really well actually, except when I got to thinking about it, it leaves a bunch of "hook" velcro exposed to hook onto other things, like other parts of the loop velcro, parts of my liner, etc. So that's not going to work.

I'm considering three options with various pros and cons currently:

• Running a zig zag stitch down the velcro that hopefully the silicone would stick to, and just gluing little squares of velcro to the light strip every few inches. This would be extremely time consuming, and given the time I have left, probably isn't a good option.
• Buying a few hundred velcro hook "dots" with 3M adhesive backing that will hopefully stick to the strip. I really don't like this option because if the adhesive doesn't stick, or sticks a little bit but then comes off, it'll be a big mess.
• Cutting the 2" strips of velcro hooks, and shaving/cutting/melting off most of the hooks, then wrapping around the LED strip and hot gluing. This also sounds pretty time consuming, unless I can come up with a quick, repeatable, reliable way to remove the hooks from a few hundred strips of velcro. Anyone got any ideas? I was thinking a personal groomer might do the trick, but it might leave sharp plastic stubble that's not much better than the hooks. Maybe melting? Doesn't seem very repeatable though. Argh!

[Gazmatron]

doh!
hmmm, interesting challenge...
if you wrap it, won't that cover up some of the LEDs?
I don't think the 3M adhesive backing will stick to silicone rubber as I tried a similar option myself a few years ago.

I honestly think the 'plastic bonding system' I sent you the link to has a good chance of working. I can't speak from experience of that exact product, but I've used equivalent products, and in theory it should be ok. At $3.77 at least it's not too much of a loss if the test fails. Just try with the activator on the silicone side of the bond first, but if the glue doesn't bond to the velco either then use the activator on the velcro side of the bond as well.

Other than that, I'm scratching my head... but will give it some more thought!

[melodiousdirge]

doh!
hmmm, interesting challenge...
if you wrap it, won't that cover up some of the LEDs?
I don't think the 3M adhesive backing will stick to silicone rubber as I tried a similar option myself a few years ago.

I honestly think the 'plastic bonding system' I sent you the link to has a good chance of working. I can't speak from experience of that exact product, but I've used equivalent products, and in theory it should be ok. At $3.77 at least it's not too much of a loss if the test fails. Just try with the activator on the silicone side of the bond first, but if the glue doesn't bond to the velco either then use the activator on the velcro side of the bond as well.

Other than that, I'm scratching my head... but will give it some more thought!

Well I've determined that the velcro is nylon. That plastic bonding system caught my eye as well but the loctite website does not recommend using it for silicone. There are quite a few adhesives that will work, I'm just low on time for experimentation and so I'm thinking maybe a mechanical fastener is the way to go (like wrapping the velcro around the strip, or smallish safety pins through the velcro but looped around the strip). I ordered some velcro with a "high strength rubber adhesive backing" from mcmaster. I'm reluctant to trust any non-curing contact adhesive for this but if it gets here soon enough I'll surely give it a try. Tonight I'll try shaving some velcro.

[melodiousdirge]

Well I solved the problem, and I was very pleased with myself but I think I might need to shelf or at least re-think this project for 2014. The good news, pertinent to this topic is that I found a good way to attach the strips to velcro: I just stitched some 1" clear heat shrink tubing to the back of the velcro, and slid the heat shrink over the light strip. I was going to then heat shrink it in place but it holds it snugly enough just the way it is.

The bad news is I built a battery belt to power this thing. The belt is put together with 40 lithium cells and should be able to provide somewhere around 26Ah at 12v. Unfortunately, the salvaged cells that I used are not anywhere near their nameplate capacity, and I'm finding at higher drain rates, their capacity is even lower (more like 4-5Ah). The lights in this coat will pull somewhere around 6 amps continuous, giving me a battery life of like 45 minutes. **sigh** so I'm not sure what to do. I'm stuck halfway between pulling all the lights out of the coat and just finishing it up like a normal non-light coat should be, or else throwing time and money at the battery problem (both of which are running short at this late date). I think removing the lights is by far the most sensible alternative but it gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my gut to abandon ship on something I put so much time into.

[Gazmatron]

Just a quick note as I'm about to catch my flight to SFO!
Good to hear one problem is solved!

Do your strips/controller have an option to adjust the brightness? I run mine at about 30% brightness and they are still more than bright enough at night - makes a huge difference to the power draw. Hobbyking.com should be able to do express delivery of a LiPo pack if you make sure you order from their USA warehouse. If you can wind the brightness down you might get away with a couple of 5000Mah 3S packs in parallel? I saw another thread on here recently about battery ideas... maybe check that one also

Good luck! See you in the dust!

[BBadger]

LED strips are pretty darn bright. If you want to dim them, look into buying or making your own PWM-based LED dimmer.

On Amazon they're about $7 each, but come with a nice knob and case.

If you want to make your own, you can build one for very cheap. Just replace the motor with your LEDs. The MOSFET in there (the IRFZ46N) can be any power MOSFET and you can get the parts at Mouser or Sparkfun or some place like that. Buy in bulk and you can build them for a couple bucks each.

[melodiousdirge]

LED strips are pretty darn bright. If you want to dim them, look into buying or making your own PWM-based LED dimmer.

On Amazon they're about $7 each, but come with a nice knob and case.

If you want to make your own, you can build one for very cheap. Just replace the motor with your LEDs. The MOSFET in there (the IRFZ46N) can be any power MOSFET and you can get the parts at Mouser or Sparkfun or some place like that. Buy in bulk and you can build them for a couple bucks each.

Thanks for the info. You're right - they are hella bright. I think I've solved the battery issue. I decided I couldn't bear to abandon this project. Here's hoping there's no more roadblocks... I don't have f'n time for any!

[melodiousdirge]

Happy endings!