Large Sound Camp DJ Line-ups.

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:12 am

Rashid Sardarov, a businessman from Dagestan, is a remarkable figure both in business and high life. He was first to buy Rolls-Royce in Moscow. He has also bought an entire mountain in Lower Austria and fenced it.

Jovankat · Post by **Jovankat** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:18 am

That's really sad. Mountains should be able to roam free as nature intended

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:44 pm

Nicely phrased, Jovenkat.

jneilvindy · Post by **jneilvindy** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:59 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:Rashid Sardarov, a businessman from Dagestan, is a remarkable figure both in business and high life. He was first to buy Rolls-Royce in Moscow. He has also bought an entire mountain in Lower Austria and fenced it.

But will he be throwing down a killer set this year at Burning Man is what I need to know!

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:27 am

Jovankat wrote:That's really sad. Mountains should be able to roam free as nature intended

theCryptofishist wrote:Nicely phrased, Jovenkat.

yes, i thought that was hilarious, well done.

Slug · Post by **Slug** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:03 pm

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here because I'm feeling saucy. Prepare your torches and pitchforks accordingly.

1. If a big sound camp promotes/advertises/posts their lineups AFTER the bulk of ticket sales are over (ie pre-OMG but post STEP closing) then that would be OK because the lineup most likely wasn't what drove the person to buy their ticket. Instead they're just sharing what they plan to put out on the playa like other camps. Pre-ticket sale promotion is less acceptable to me because it tells me they're using the lineup to encourage people to buy tickets in order to attend their sets. [Insert rabble about non-participation/sparkle ponies being stupid/festival-ness/etc here.]

2. I do take issue with the language White Ocean used in their "flyer". And the whole thing looks exactly like an advertisement... not cool. Including the name dropping. All for reasons previously discussed.

--and double high five to Jovankat for that comment.

H.G.Crosby · Post by **H.G.Crosby** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:11 pm

to their credit, white ocean has removed the line-up from their facebook page.

Jovankat · Post by **Jovankat** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:40 pm

Slug wrote:I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here because I'm feeling saucy. Prepare your torches and pitchforks accordingly.

1. If a big sound camp promotes/advertises/posts their lineups AFTER the bulk of ticket sales are over (ie pre-OMG but post STEP closing) then that would be OK because the lineup most likely wasn't what drove the person to buy their ticket. Instead they're just sharing what they plan to put out on the playa like other camps. Pre-ticket sale promotion is less acceptable to me because it tells me they're using the lineup to encourage people to buy tickets in order to attend their sets. [Insert rabble about non-participation/sparkle ponies being stupid/festival-ness/etc here.]

2. I do take issue with the language White Ocean used in their "flyer". And the whole thing looks exactly like an advertisement... not cool. Including the name dropping. All for reasons previously discussed.

--and double high five to Jovankat for that comment.

Why thank you

I think you're right that things that look like traditional advertising are a little off putting. I totally understand that there are bigger issues at play here when it comes to the large sound camps but the other day a theme camp posted somewhere else on the board something that looked VERY MUCH like a gig poster. Sure there were no logos or ticket info but it was a gig poster for their theme camp. There shouldn't really be anything wrong with that, it's just a pretty graphic presentation of the info that every camp is posting in their threads but it made me feel icky cause it seemed so out of place.

I dunno if that's just me being silly or not though

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:34 am

theme camps have always hyped themselves. I have no problem with that...

this thread was about LARGE SOUND camps that are using Burning Man as a Venue to show off their talent to promote said talent in Defaultia.

they are riding the man's back to profit and fame, and leveraging their playa cred into "festy" dollars...

regular theme camps advertising their "gifts" and "services" and shows is nothing new, or "wrong"...PROMOTING your defaultia business via the burn is.

so, yes, you are being silly.

666isMONEY · Post by **666isMONEY** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:38 am

: White Ocean, Sunday, 1 September 2013, 6:25 am

Not sure why I took this pic, maybe it was because none of the large sound camps had very large crowds in the morning -- a lot less than Robot Heart's playa parties.

Ano · Post by **Ano** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:00 am

I know this is really petty of me, but a part of me always laughs when I'm riding past the major 10 and 2 camps and see one of them totally empty. Or, when it hits 12am/2am/4am and mysteriously thousands of people switch camps to chase their next favorite DJ across the playa.

Me, personally - to each their own. If they want to waste their experience on chasing the next big drop, more power to them. I dig art car parties, if I'm going to go to one - it feels a lot more "real," whatever the fuck that means.

666isMONEY · Post by **666isMONEY** » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:52 am

: Robot Heart, Sunday 1 September 2013, 8:21 am

DJ lists don't matter to me but I deliberately camp near 10:00 'cause I like the music and camping close to deep-playa.

Interesting thread!

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 am

"no, really, i'm soft and fluffy, i swear to god"

________ · Post by **________** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:08 pm

So, I've lurked these forums on and off since my first burn in '09. I'm by no means a regular so forgive me if I am in error, but I'm just trying to get an understanding of the situation and contribute to the discussion.

Simon*, you have strong ties to Root Society, correct? Maybe even one of the camp leaders? How do you reconcile that with your aggressive anti-lineup and anti-commercial positions in this thread?

Root Society is essentially the poster child for everything you are railing against. Even now their Facebook is previewing their on-playa lineup by promoting artists like Griz and FreQ Nasty just as any other "Defaultia" club event or festival would, and in recent years they have 100% "leverag[ed] their playa cred into 'festy' dollars" (see Ultra, etc). They are following The Do LaB's seminal text, "How to Use Burning Man to Start Your Commercial Festival Empire", to a T.**

For the record, I love the Do LaB and LiB, and I really appreciate what RS brings to the playa (though I tend to prefer other camps). At the same time I also identify with the non-commercial ideals of Burning Man. But, it is not wholly separate form the rest of the world, and it never will be as long as the same people inhabit both.** Did Bassnectar shamefully ride the man's back to profit and fame? Or did he just gain popularity there and then it spread elsewhere? Especially in this day and age, all of these lines are blurred. The claim seems especially odd to level against Paul Oakenfold (since White Ocean seems to be the current face of evil sound camps), he obviously does not need to use the man for profit and fame. Where do you draw the line between what is acceptable promotion of your camp and what isn't? "No lineups that look like ads"? "No promotion of artists that are X popular already"? I suspect the degree to which someone is an "insider" or "outsider" plays a big role, which is somewhat understandable for maintaining certain aspects of the culture, but it's very easy for bias and double standards to creep in. There's a really interesting discussion to be had here on the limits of "radical inclusion." History shows that people are extremely ex-clusive and "cliquey" by nature and even in an environment that consciously and purposefully preaches the opposite, the divisions still form.

Burning Man is huge, it's become a worldwide enterprise and phenomenon. There is a lot of money involved, and inevitably people are going to flock to something that gains so much visibility and acclaim, and "ruin" it, just like anything else. And I lament that pattern - and the people who appropriate things and pay no attention to the culture and what came before - just as much as anyone else. But don't misappropriate that frustration by condemning the entire concept of a sound camp posting a lineup. Some people like to get really excited about the music and who they will be seeing. It's not *just* sparkle ponies shuffling like cattle between the world's hottest DJs. I have definitely made an effort at times to see artists that I liked, and have been really glad that I did. Does that make me a terrible slave to corporate consumerist whatever? I also enjoyed wandering in random directions and seeing tons of unexpected stuff.

Anyway, no hard feelings toward anyone, I just like thinking about these things and provoking interesting conversation. I do sincerely hope that everyone gets to enjoy their burn however they want.

* I don't mean to single you out, this is a response to the whole thread, but you did start it and do function as a ringleader of sorts.

** Not to mention that Burning Man in an entirely non-self-sustained event, the only thing that makes it possible is success in real-world commercial ventures that allows people to afford such luxuries. So there's a symbiosis there, and it just seems somewhat myopic or deluded to outright condemn all of the external structure that makes this possible.

GreyCoyote · Post by **GreyCoyote** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:20 pm

(-hands the poster above a lightning rod, pats him on the shoulder, and disappears rapidly down the mountainside-)

Gunslinger · Post by **Gunslinger** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:56 pm

Personally, I like seeing a DJ lineup. Here's why;
I've unfortunately missed seeing Simon/Shpongle somehow every time I'm out there and have heard afterwards how great of a show it was, or similar with Dubtribe. It would've been nice to join the few hundred who were at the art car at the right time for me.

Yes, the top-10-DJs will always have their followers and that's great, that party is for them and they love what they have. It also means I don't have to stand around at one sound camp listening intently to figure out which flavor of the month on the charts DJ is up there and then bail because that's not my thing. But I do like seeing old talent show up that were in the scene from the beginning (Crystal Method, Daft Punk, etc) and it's nice to know when/where they're going to be on. I also love hearing new talent that I've never heard before and checking the line-up to see who that guy/girl was that rocked a wicked set. There is nothing wrong with giving props or promoting (on playa for playa) something these artists have worked so hard to perfect for all of our enjoyment as long as their gifting their talent without compensation. It's similar to seeing an incredible work of art say by a famous kinetic sculpturist and looking to see their work on playa and tugging your friends out of their tents to witness the spectacle.
Then again, I realize this is just my opinion and others have different and maybe even better ones, this is one of the things that makes BM so great!

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:23 pm

lucky420 wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:i'd like to clarify something.

i am not against Big Name DJ's. I am not against Big Sound….i love the shit, you know that. some of my good friends are objects of cults of personality, i don't begrudge them success or fame.

think of it this way…..what is better, suddenly coming across one of your favorite "acts" out of nowhere on some random venue VS. showing up at an appointed "time & Place" to see a prefab set, exactly one hour long, because you know, there's a fucking schedule to adhere to…

hell it was ADVERTISED….

one is serendipitous bliss, the other is defaultia expectations.

and you know what happens when you have expectations.

and…..whats to stop Pershing County or any other Official Agency from trying to designate BM as a "music festival" vs. an "art festival", because , you know, the fuck you fees and taxes almost double in Nevada for that shit, and look…... we have Music Line-ups being ADVERTISED, way in advance of the event.

just warning'...
Spot on! We already have a congresswoman down in Vegas who wants to start taxing/new fee this event because it's not just a party in the desert. She sees it as a venue, etc and should be subject to fees/taxes in accordance with other concerts, events.

does this clarify things for you?
and for the record, i am not with root society any more, not since 2012....

also for the record....we CHANGED OUR NAME to the BAO dome in Ultra to avoid the whole outside branding issue....i was at the forefront of pushing that as to not cross certain lines in the sand.....and to their credit, The Management at RS listened to my suggestions almost all of the time as far as how could they become better citizens of black rock...say what you want to about them, they are my friends, and they love the burn...

not everyone is as marxist (im a groucho) as i am....my ideas about big business invading "EDM" and butt raping it are not popular with some of my friends.

so be it. it is what it is.

i am particularly disgusted with SFX entertainment and Bob Sillerman and the shit show they have brought down upon the "scene"...

and one more thng, if i were to guess, i would have to say that you are either pasquale rotella, or possibly timur, and thats cool...

also for the record......Juno Reactor?....SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:26 pm

[media]

H.G.Crosby · Post by **H.G.Crosby** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:46 pm

.Juno Reactor?....SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?

old school mammy jammy.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:44 pm

Not to mention that Burning Man in an entirely non-self-sustained event, the only thing that makes it possible is success in real-world commercial ventures that allows people to afford such luxuries. So there's a symbiosis there, and it just seems somewhat myopic or deluded to outright condemn all of the external structure that makes this possible.

one last thing.

we didnt have the massive fucking stages in 1996....we didnt need them then, and we dont need them now...

you wanna bring it? BRING IT AS A FUCKING GIFT.....NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

and don't ask BRAF for a fucking grant either.

ITS AN ART FESTIVAL........always has been, hopefully always will be.

H.G.Crosby · Post by **H.G.Crosby** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:47 pm

and get off of his damn lawn...

damn punks.

when i was raving we didnt have AFrojack Limited edition Bentleys.....

fuck that champagne and caviar vip bottle service noise......

seriously.

some seeing eye · Post by **some seeing eye** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:03 pm

Times have changed. How BMORG has to manage Trademark is more aggressive. Then there is Electric Daisyland et al.

I'm proud of Dream and what she has done. And I support it 100%. Loren has always had an organic fan base. His success is not due to TFITD. It is due to the relationship he has built with his audience. Though I love Kate dearly, I don't think we need a published schedule. Soon there will be enough mobile connectivity at the event that people can message the whereabouts of specific acts (shut your ears) using WiFi and the right app.

I'm all for a handwritten sign day-of with "special guest" slots. The camp people will tell some people and word will get around.

I like to dance, but I think the dance emphasis should be dialed back. Too many people coming for a dance festival - just read the ticket threads, and too much bad club behavior. That in itself endangers the event.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:45 pm

^this^

and as far as kate goes, White Ocean didnt even bother to wait and go through her, as is the tradition, one that all of the other sound camps follow.

seriously...releasing the fucking line-up on july 2nd..and into the "wild" no less...all over the interwebz.......what...the....fuck.

if they are the "Face" of the evil sound camps it's because of their own goddamn actions, not mine, i merely pointed out the obvious.

H.G.Crosby · Post by **H.G.Crosby** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:31 am

some seeing eye wrote:Times have changed. How BMORG has to manage Trademark is more aggressive. Then there is Electric Daisyland et al.

I'm proud of Dream and what she has done. And I support it 100%. Loren has always had an organic fan base. His success is not due to TFITD. It is due to the relationship he has built with his audience. Though I love Kate dearly, I don't think we need a published schedule. Soon there will be enough mobile connectivity at the event that people can message the whereabouts of specific acts (shut your ears) using WiFi and the right app.

I'm all for a handwritten sign day-of with "special guest" slots. The camp people will tell some people and word will get around.

I like to dance, but I think the dance emphasis should be dialed back. Too many people coming for a dance festival - just read the ticket threads, and too much bad club behavior. That in itself endangers the event.

This little lovely showed up on white ocean's FB page today.

she's totally serious and sincere about her question, it's not trolling.

g*d help us.

remi · Post by **remi** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:47 am

I saw roots society posted that they will be having Griz, Freqnasty and Seven Lions playing there this year. I wasn't upset when I read that. I love those dj's. I like hearing what DJ's are on the playa, but typically won't schedule to see one because I'm too busy looking for the Daft Punk set every year by the trash fence. I never find it .. but I will one day!

Slug · Post by **Slug** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:19 pm

It's very un-radically inclusive of me but I'd love to knock Jenna off the pre-decorated bike that she got at her plug 'n play camp on Friday night.

Sorry not sorry I'm elitist/imperfect.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:50 am

Roberto Dobbisano · Post by **Roberto Dobbisano** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:55 am

[media]

Bless · Post by **Bless** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:10 am

Looks like they got Simon's memo:

Dear Burners,

As you know, a few weeks ago the entire White Ocean line up went public, in a relatively big way. To add insult to injury, it also listed "Presenting" parties in the most un-Burner like fashion! We know that this greatly upset each and everyone of you, and for good reason! We agree, this is a huge failure, on our part! There's no excuse!!! We apologize unreservedly and beg your forgiveness. Everything, that has to do with the original post and can be taken down, has been! We're continuing efforts to clean up as much as possible, but the damage is done. Once again, we are deeply, deeply sorry!

We would like you to know, that this was not a deliberate, malicious act, on behalf of White Ocean camp. This action was taken by an outside party, non burner, who's well meaning attempt to help out, ended up as this massive fuck up, by us at White Ocean. This gentleman, who was assisting us with artists, also took on doing some of the graphic design. As far as we were concerned, this material was to go on our website and Facebook, at the respectable 7-10 days before the Burn, and only to express our excitement of the impending musical experience we've been preparing as our gift. The gift from all of 120+ of us, who make up White Ocean 2014, without anyone "presenting" anything! When it was done, he proceeded to create and implement a full promotions campaign, as if he was working for some music festival, in Europe. That was his perception of Burning Man, an elaborately modified festival in the desert, that doesn't sell beer. And what does every successful stage, at a festival, need?! The best promotions team possible! He happens to be part of such a team, and decided we really need a favor, to get the word out about the wonderful collection of artists, we have this year. Of course, we did educate him, in great detail, on the BM philosophy, principals and community. Seemingly he grasped the concept, especially the gifting economy. He did all the work, for us, over this year, absolutely free. He was trying to do us a solid, oblivious to the fact that he's doing exactly the opposite. The fault is completely ours, at White Ocean, however! We take full responsibility! We did not understand what was happening until after! We were too busy building cool Playa stuff, and did not pay attention to the details! We did not ask the right questions or even properly review the final copy! The people that were billed as "Presenting", had no idea they were doing anything of the kind, and are horrified. There's absolutely no legitimate reason we allowed this to happen!

Once again, words cannot express the remorse, guilt and sorrow, we feel for offending and possibly damaging Burning Man and the Burner community, both of whom we love and cherish more than anything else!

We will do everything in our power, in the dust and beyond, to try to make things right. We know this will take a very long time, but we hope the community will give us a second chance, someday.

Thank you, very much!

Sincerely yours,
Everyone at White Ocean

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