Yasir Arafat dies, world peace has a chance....

[Simply Joel]

nope, he isn't dead yet...

however, i do find it ironic that Yasir Arafat is going to die of natural causes (old age) while hundreds if not thousands have died due to his leadership (for the lack of a better word).


November 9, 2004
Arafat's Health Worsens as Delegation Arrives
By STEVEN ERLANGER
and ELAINE SCIOLINO

ERUSALEM, Nov. 9 - The condition of the Palestinian leader, Yasir Arafat, has worsened overnight, just before a group of Mr. Arafat's likely political heirs arrived today at the French hospital where he is being treated in the latest stage of a confrontation brewing between the delegation and Mr. Arafat's wife, Suha.

"The comatose state that led to his admission into intensive care has become deeper this morning," Christian Estripeau, the chief doctor, said today of the 75-year-old Mr. Arafat's condition. "This marks a significant step towards an evolution whose prognosis cannot be determined."

The Palestinian delegation, which arrived at the French hospital in the Paris suburbs today, consists of all the institutional successors to Mr. Arafat's many titles - as the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization; as head of its largest faction, Fatah; and as president of the Palestinian Authority.

The group consists of Mahmoud Abbas, secretary general and No. 2 of the P.L.O.; Ahmed Qurei, the prime minister of the Palestinian Authority; Nabil Shaath, the Authority's foreign minister; and Rawhi Fattouh, the speaker of the parliament, an Arafat loyalist who would become president of the Authority upon Mr. Arafat's death for 60 days until new elections could be held.

Mrs. Arafat, sophisticated, stylish and 34 years younger than her revolutionary icon husband, has used French privacy laws to keep the state of her husband's health a mystery to the world - and even to the Palestinians who were closest to him, not to speak of those ordinary people who claim him as the father of their nation.

Exasperated and worried, senior Palestinian leaders arrived in Paris on Monday night to find out for themselves the state of Mr. Arafat's health. They had scheduled meetings today with the French president, Jacques Chirac, and Foreign Minister Michel Barnier.

Some senior French officials, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, have said they are fed up with Mrs. Arafat's maneuvering. So are the Palestinian leaders trying to keep their people calm and establish a legitimate line of succession to Mr. Arafat, who has kept all positions of real power to himself.

The Palestinians abruptly canceled and then rescheduled the trip to France on Monday after Mrs. Arafat accused them, in what she called "an appeal to the Palestinian people" from Mr. Arafat's bedside, of trying to bury her husband alive and take over his powers.

"You have to realize the size of the conspiracy," she told Al Jazeera television in a telephone call she initiated. "I tell you that a number of contenders to the throne are coming to Paris and they are trying to bury Abu Ammar alive," she said, using Mr. Arafat's nom de guerre. "He is all right and he is going home. God is great."

French officials, themselves impatient with the mystery surrounding the condition of Mr. Arafat, had urged the Palestinian leaders to come to try to break Mrs. Arafat's hold. They also urged the Palestinians to reschedule the trip to Paris after they had canceled it in anger over Mrs. Arafat's remarks, Palestinian officials said.

Under French law, Mrs. Arafat has the right to control information about her husband and decisions about his treatment and perhaps his eventual death, French officials said.

Doctors at the Percy military hospital outside Paris have told Élysée Palace that "the coma is technically reversible although it is unlikely," one French official said, but that Mr. Arafat could linger for some time.

On Monday evening, General Estripeau, the hospital spokesman, said his condition was stable but it "forces us to limit visits." In her appeal, Mrs. Arafat also shouted, "It is revolution until victory!" one of Mr. Arafat's most famous slogans from his long revolutionary past, dropped only when he agreed to recognize the existence of the state of Israel. She was appealing to young Palestinian militants not to let his institutional inheritors win, suggested Eran Lerman, an Arabic-speaking former Israeli intelligence officer who is the regional director of the American Jewish Committee.

Her appeal was widely scorned Monday, however. Mr. Arafat's national security adviser, Jibril Rajoub, said to reporters: "About the chairman's wife, he chose her to be his wife. We respected this and continue to respect this. She was not part of the Palestinian leadership."

Sufian Abu Zaida, a deputy cabinet minister, told Israeli radio: "For a woman who did not see her husband for three years, it is very strange that at the end of his days, his wife decides who will enter and who will not enter.

"This is an absurd situation," he said, raising his voice, "for Suha to sit there and decide when and how and who."

Mrs. Arafat, 41, who has been living comfortably - some say luxuriously - in Paris, had not seen her husband in more than three years. But she re-emerged as a fiercely protective wife when she traveled to the West Bank city of Ramallah to accompany her ailing husband as he was flown to the French military hospital on Oct. 29.

Palestinian resentment toward Mrs. Arafat has grown since she left the Palestinian areas for Paris with the couple's daughter, Zahwa, now 9, shortly after the Palestinian uprising began four years ago.

Mrs. Arafat was raised in the West Bank by her father, a banker, and her mother, Raymonda Tawil, a prominent journalist considered a driving force in her daughter's life.

After university studies in France in the mid-1980's, Mrs. Arafat worked in public relations for the Palestinian leadership in Tunis, Mr. Arafat's base at the time.

Born Christian, she converted to Islam and married Mr. Arafat secretly in 1990. The union did not become public until two years later. "I married a myth," she said in an interview five years ago with The New York Times. "But the marriage helped him step down from his pedestal and become a human being."

The couple's only child was born in 1995, at a French hospital. In remarks that alienated many Palestinians, Mrs. Arafat said the girl was conceived in Gaza, but she chose to give birth in France because the sanitary conditions at Gaza hospitals were "terrible."

On Monday, Yasir Abed Rabbo, a senior P.L.O. figure, accused Mrs. Arafat of "hysteria" over her handling of her husband's illness.

Hanan Ashrawi, a Palestinian legislator, said Mr. Arafat was a head of state, not just a husband and father. "This is their right to go to Paris - to dispel all these misconceptions and rumors," she said, calling Mrs. Arafat's comments "provocative and divisive."

Mr. Qurei, at the beginning of a cabinet meeting, was more gentle, saying, "We express our utmost regret at the comments made by sister Suha," adding that Mr. Arafat "belongs to the Palestinian people."

In Nablus, Palestinians finishing their shopping for the evening meal, to break the Ramadan fast, sharply criticized Mrs. Arafat.

"All of us are worried about the president's health," said Umm Khalil, 58, pausing with three bulging plastic bags in her hands. "She has no right to say, 'Don't come.' They are his comrades, his colleagues, his friends."

The Israeli press suggested Monday that Mr. Arafat might have a main burial service in Egypt, where Arab leaders would not have to pass through Israeli border controls, and then be buried in the Gaza Strip, where his father and sister are interred. But Egypt denied the account.

Elaine Sciolino reported from Paris for this article. Greg Myre contributed from Jerusalem, James Bennet from Nablus and Taghreed el-Khodary from Gaza.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

[DVD Burner]

nope, he isn't dead yet...

however, i do find it ironic that Yasir Arafat is going to die of natural causes (old age) while hundreds if not thousands have died due to his leadership (for the lack of a better word).

Well you and I dont know that he is die-ing of natural causes. Sharone has killed more people than Arafat has.

You're gonna have to do better than that.

[Rian Jackson]

a-ight, dude, you're right - we don't technically know if he really is dying of natural causes or not. but i believe it. he's no young man. the bit that cracks me up is that they're saying he's got liver failure. don't it just reek of drinking to much? bad muslim. bad muslim.

dude. barghouti for president. everyone else is either a sellout, doesn't come out strongly on human rights for everybody, or doesn't have the grassroots support. i'm all for a dude who can get the militants to do a unilateral ceasefire. damn, he's even got a crowd of israeli friends. JAILBREAK!

in my recent conversation with a friend:
Me: I have to call back over there at the Eid. What's that thing that people say to each other on the Eid?
Him: Well, by that time Arafat will be dead...
Me: So, hamdilallah?
Him: That's right. hamdilallah!

[cowboyangel]

Arafat dies, so his corrupt leadership dies perhaps, but the struggle still goes on for Palestinian rights, does anybody here doubt that? As far as killing goes, both sides are expert at that grim accomplishment with Israel taking the dramatic lead...any doubts about that? Your right about Barghouti Rian. Just remember, Nelson Mandela spent alot of time in jail too.

[cowboyangel]

Arafat dies....world peace has a chance? Joel? Come on get real man.....

[Simply Joel]

Arafat dies....world peace has a chance? Joel? Come on get real man.....

i am still allowed to hope, am i not?

[DVD Burner]

The other thing is, was this thread really necessary. I mean couldn’t you have just put this in the politics thread? There are enough politic threads being spun nowa days. This is supposed to be a Burningman message board after all isn’t it?

[Rian Jackson]

CBA, there's some extent to which engaging in that conversation is flogging the proverbial dead horse.

Joel is trying to push some buttons, and you're letting him do it. I'm all for discussing the issue, don't get me wrong. Last night at the bar i kept being pulled aside to discuss it. And i would like to be able to toss around ideas here (thanks for making the thread, Joel!)

The fact is, my conversations with Jewish friends who grew up in Israel are far more productive than, say, arguments with Joel on the matter. It's telling.

Let's talk about it if we're gonna get somewhere. But not just to let the whup-ass out....

So here's part of what we were talking about last night.

Israel is basically making this big old stink about not allowing Arafat to be buried in Al-Quds/Yerushalayim/Jerusalem. It's silly, really... i mean, there are separate burial areas for the different religions. God knows the corrupt motherfucker has enough money to buy a plot. But the Israeli government KNOWS that this could be the next major flash point. Besides the bit about how most people don't have that much faith in Arafat, he's still symbolically important. To not allow his burial in Al-Quds - which makes sense for a Muslim and a long-time Palestinian leader - is not only to disrespect Arafat but to disrespect Palestinians as a whole. The Israeli government knows this.

So what happens if they continue to refuse? The way i see it, is you get more clashes. Probably another one at the Haram Al- Sharif/ Al Aqsa/ Western Wall area. Probably all over Gaza and the West Bank. and then, of course, the military response will be over the top, which will make it that much harder to organise an effective leadership in the post arafat era. it'll kill a lot of 'ragheads' while they're at it, too.

So already we are looking at a situation of severe chaos. Palestinian communities are extremely concerned about the coming weeks and how this transition of power can happen. So as the occupier you raise the stakes and make it more likely that the intelligent organisation and care that IS happening will be crippled.

It's a tactic the Israeli government has been using for a long time, in one form or another.

Part of what makes me sad about that is when the Israeli government tries to provoke the Palestinian population (sometimes with success, sometimes without; and yes, this happens daily) they know that a decently small percentage of the time the backlash effect is violence against Israelis. And the Israeli governement does not fucking care.

I do not believe that the Israeli govenement has the best interests of Israelis at heart. The peace and justice groups on both sides - even those who work against Israel - are doing far more for the Israeli people's survival and safety than the damn Knesset is. It makes me sick.

[Simply Joel]

The other thing is, was this thread really necessary. I mean couldn’t you have just put this in the politics thread? There are enough politic threads being spun nowa days. This is supposed to be a Burningman message board after all isn’t it?

whoa... i have begun 6 or so political threads (politics 24/7, self-destruct on 3 nov and i voted on the first page and three others on further pages)...

this is an early obituary, not politics.

and yes, Rian, i am pushing buttons, but not unlike those of mine that have been pushed.

the shoe is on the other foot?

[Rian Jackson]

no, Joel, don't get me wrong, i'm not angry or anything.
but there is productive conversation and then there's energy wastage...
it's not as if i'm going to change your point of view so why would i try?

i do think, though, that even though we see different sides of things we may be able to enrich each other's knowledge.

meet me at the bar sometime, i want to buy you a drink still.

[Rob the Wop]

no, Joel, don't get me wrong, i'm not angry or anything.
but there is productive conversation and then there's energy wastage...
it's not as if i'm going to change your point of view so why would i try?

i do think, though, that even though we see different sides of things we may be able to enrich each other's knowledge.

meet me at the bar sometime, i want to buy you a drink still.

Hey now, if I argue with you- would you buy me drinkies?
I'm all for resolving conflicts with alcohol.

[Rian Jackson]

no, Joel, don't get me wrong, i'm not angry or anything.
but there is productive conversation and then there's energy wastage...
it's not as if i'm going to change your point of view so why would i try?

i do think, though, that even though we see different sides of things we may be able to enrich each other's knowledge.

meet me at the bar sometime, i want to buy you a drink still.

Hey now, if I argue with you- would you buy me drinkies?
I'm all for resolving conflicts with alcohol.

only if the fight is about something banal and there's a bullhorn involved.

[samtzu]

no, Joel, don't get me wrong, i'm not angry or anything.
but there is productive conversation and then there's energy wastage...
it's not as if i'm going to change your point of view so why would i try?

i do think, though, that even though we see different sides of things we may be able to enrich each other's knowledge.

meet me at the bar sometime, i want to buy you a drink still.

Hey now, if I argue with you- would you buy me drinkies?
I'm all for resolving conflicts with alcohol.

Like the unscheduled appearence of Woodrow?

only if the fight is about something banal and there's a bullhorn involved.

[Rian Jackson]

Hey now, if I argue with you- would you buy me drinkies?
I'm all for resolving conflicts with alcohol.

Like the unscheduled appearence of Woodrow?

only if the fight is about something banal and there's a bullhorn involved.

i didn't know there were scheduled ones.
i suppose he has a palm pilot and a secretary, too?

[samtzu]

Like the unscheduled appearence of Woodrow?

only if the fight is about something banal and there's a bullhorn involved.

i didn't know there were scheduled ones.
i suppose he has a palm pilot and a secretary, too?

Yes he does... and he's looking for a publicist. Are you interested?

[Rian Jackson]

i didn't know there were scheduled ones.
i suppose he has a palm pilot and a secretary, too?

Yes he does... and he's looking for a publicist. Are you interested?

how involved is the interview process?

[samtzu]

i didn't know there were scheduled ones.
i suppose he has a palm pilot and a secretary, too?

Yes he does... and he's looking for a publicist. Are you interested?

how involved is the interview process?

Very 'in depth'.... and that doesn't include the oral exam.

[Rian Jackson]

Interesting.

I'm reading about the role of Hamas in a post-Arafat world...
i would have assumed that, considering the anti PA activism of Hamas in Gaza, they'd be problematic for this coming period.

However, there have been some very strong statements from Hamas about not causing problems and not trying to replace Fateh. Fateh isn't perfect, but i really am not up for a religious government of any sort.

I guess the talk is that with Arafat's death or disability (speaking of, he just had a brain haemorrhage), Hamas will gain more political power anyway. The talk as that since hamas is becoming less radical (hey, not my words) they won't want to be seen as the 'troublesome' ones in continuing negotiations.

There's a lot of talik about some kind of collectivist government emerging, which is a really intriguing concept.

I have a hard time seeing Israel and the US accepting it, though. I mean, the Qassam Brigades are only one wing of Hamas, which does plenty of important social and charitable work, just as Jihad Islami does. I imagine, though, that because people think of militants only when they think of Hamas, there's high chance for immediate assassination of anyone who steps up to be a governmental representative of Hamas.

Interesting thought to me, though i don't know if history bears this out. My guess is that including the Islamist movements in a collective government would make radicalisation and fundamentalist lawmaking less likely. Including such factions could potentially take wind out of their sails. Conversely, in response to being marginalised, a group that isn't included can become fundamentalist in the fanatical sense. I guess that's less about Palestine than about the issue in general, but I think it has some worth in these thoughts, also.

[Simply Joel]

November 10, 2004
After Arafat, Hope
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

WASHINGTON — The only lifelong terrorist to win a Nobel Peace Prize lies comatose in Paris, with his well-heeled wife - for years unwilling to share his privations in Ramallah - screaming at Palestinian leaders on Al Jazeera television that "they're trying to bury [him] alive!" More likely, they may be trying to learn in what secret accounts he buried millions of dollars.

Israelis should remember Arafat's one "good deed": four years ago, a soon-to-be ousted Israeli prime minister and a Nobel-hungry U.S. president made the Palestinian Authority an incredibly generous and dangerous offer: dividing Jerusalem, handing over almost all of the West Bank, and even partially establishing a "right of return" for some Palestinians who fled an Arab invasion of the new Jewish state a half-century ago.

Arafat's "good deed" was to reject this sweeping offer and to launch another wave of suicidal homicide. In a macabre diplomatic sense, his refusal to take "yes" for an answer was a lucky thing for Israel's image: if those huge concessions had later been presented to Israelis in a promised referendum, Jewish voters would surely have turned down the Clinton-brokered deal. Proof of that was in the avalanche that then ousted the desperate Ehud Barak and elected the determined Ariel Sharon.

In that case, world opprobrium would have been aimed at Israelis for their concern about defensible borders rather than at Arafat for revealing his goal of driving out the Jews.

That blame did not fall on Israel. Thanks to worldwide disgust at Arafat's all-or-nothing demand and his refusal to stop the killing of innocents on school buses, Sharon was able to freeze him out of civilized diplomacy. Plain prudence required the isolation of the Palestinian dedicated to the war process until new leadership emerged to show that the Arabs were ready to create a peaceful neighboring state.

President Bush, especially after terrorism reached us on 9/11, saw the wisdom in Sharon's approach. Arafat, squelching all Palestinian leaders who wanted to disarm Hamas and other jihadists, abruptly ceased to be the most frequent foreign visitor to the White House. Bush did not object, as France and the U.N. bureaucracy did, to the security fence designed to save Israeli lives.

Sharon, with no Palestinian empowered to end the violence, then made his historic disengagement move, stunning fellow Jews who saw him as the defender of the Gaza settlers. He insisted the Palestinians take "yes" for an answer and began the painful business of withdrawal (a word he avoids).

Despite the uproar from his religious right, Sharon - with the Israeli majority and his American ally firmly behind him - faced down his Likud Party and members of his cabinet and marched implacably ahead.

Now here comes Tony Blair to Washington. In Iraq, the gutsy Brit stands shoulder to shoulder with the U.S., at considerable political cost at home; Bush owes him plenty. Blair needs a big favor to get the Bush-haters in Britain off his back, so welcomed Bush's re-election with "the need to revitalize the Middle East peace process is the single most pressing political challenge in our world today."

Translated into undiplomatic English, that means: Let's you, me, Vladimir Putin and Kofi Annan get together and tell Sharon to re-offer the old Barak-Clinton deal to whichever Palestinian will listen. Then the Muslim violence will stop all over the world. Step 1: appoint a big-name special envoy to deliver the ultimatum.

Just imagine: this suggests that if there had been no stiff-necked Israel, we would never have had the bombing of Pan Am 103 by Qaddafi, no massacre of 10,000 Sunnis at Hama by Hafez al-Assad, no poison-gassing of 5,000 Kurds at Halabja by Saddam, no continued unpleasantness in Chechnya, or that incident in Lower Manhattan. Just lean on Israel and we'll solve "the most pressing political challenge in the world today."

C'mon, Tony; we don't thank one big ally by selling out a smaller one. There's an honorable way.

Let Arafat pass from the scene. Let the Palestinians show they are ready to be a nation and not a bunch of warring factions. Let them register voters, including women, as the Afghans did, hold their first competitive election, and eschew violence.

Then let us invite the elected Palestinian and Israeli leaders to Camp David to work out their final settlement.


Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

[DVD Burner]

Amazing how you highlight:

Let the Palestinians show they are ready to be a nation and not a bunch of warring factions. Let them register voters, including women, as the Afghans did, hold their first competitive election, and eschew violence.

Then let us invite the elected Palestinian and Israeli leaders to Camp David to work out their final settlement.

But you don’t highlight:

The only lifelong terrorist to win a Nobel Peace Prize lies comatose in Paris

despite the fact the statement includes Arafat portrayed as a lifelong terrorist .

The other reason I feel (my opinion now. ) SAFIRE has no credibility is he has left out the fact ( and so has Joel in this and many other related threads.) that Sharon is a Convicted War Criminal. Convicted.

For someone that is always asking for bipartisanships Joel, you are sure showing a bigoted side to each story you make.

[DVD Burner]

mind you,

Safire seems to be a nice guy to have a few beers with. I see him all the time on meet the press.

Seems alright.

[Rian Jackson]

So I was curious enough to look though some record of mine, to find out what I was doing exactly one year ago. It's funny; I was only a few days there so there were a lot of things i had yet to sort out that I figured out in time. But there November 10:

10 November 2003

This morning when I went to hang my wash on the roof there was a jepp at the end of the street. I didn't think too much of it right at first. By 8 am the shebab were throwing stones (there is no way to hurt the soldiers with stones, contrary to popular belief in America), but we thought it wasn't bad enought to warrent intervention. When the IOF started with the sound grenades we ventured out. There was tons of tear gas, smoke bombs, and sound bombs, but I don't remember any firing. It was cat and mouse, almost like a game retreat and advance, both with the shebab and the soldiers. They've done this many times before - the IOF trying to intimidate, the shebab to defend. I watched several mothers come yelling for their boys, leading them away by the necks, scolding as the other shebab laughed. We stopped the jeep from moving into the camp, and I believe we offered good protection for the children. No one was hurt.


When the jeeps finally left, we went to see about the clash four blocks away at the other end of the camp. Other ISMers had been present there as we confronted the military at our end, but Sameh had seen a tank heading their direction. Things had just calmed down when we arrived, but in a few minutes two jeeps and a tank approached from Askar Refugee Camp, just next door. We tried to stop the jeeps, but were being hit by the stones from the shebab every time we got close enough to push against it, so we backed off. We also tried to stop the tank. It was frightening - it should have slowed down, but it continued at speed. Joey was within a foot of being run over when he jumped out of the way.


Shebab were throwing stones from every corner, mostly from the rooftops. We stationed ourselves just out into the street, trying to keep the soldiers from firing while staying out of the way of the full cinder blocks which the children were dropping on the tanks. The soldiers were shooting live rounds from the jeeps.


At one point, a female ISMer was in the center of the plaza right next to the soldiers' guns. Rocks flew in the area, but the only injuries from that instance were minor injuries to two or three ISMers from shrapnel when the soldiers fired at the ground.


ISMers escorted children and women across the firing, and we stayed near (but not in front of) the shebab. I was hit by what i believe to be shattering rock when the soldiers fired at the children. They were firing something new when they aimed at us - some sort of slow moving, large ballistic. One ISMer's injury from this only made a bruise and a cut.


Eventually the army left, vehicles slightly battered and covered in paint. No one was seriously injured, though Mane was bleeding from the face and most of us were mildly bruised. The whole thing took about 3.5 hours.


I think it was this morning that the IOF put up some new, very formidable roadblocks. There is now only one useable road in Balata, making cab prices incredibly high for this poor camp. We are still picking up rubber bullets, though I think that most of the rounds were live.


It is surprising how calm it seems, almost as if this is normal for everyday life, even for me. Of course, it is normal here.


This may have been an arrest attempt, or it could be retaliation for last night. I'm still trying to piece it all together. There was a shootout around 3 am, originally rumoured to be Palestinian infighting, but now I don't think so. There were 9 arrests in the night here in Balata, 3 in the Old City of Nablus.


However, I believe it all began when they went to find Omar's cousin at his home in Balata. The house is riddled with bullet holes. The IOF came in the night, aound 2:30 am,and ordered the family to leave. In the rain and the cold, the family had to stand outside for 3 hours; all but one were women and children. They were looking for 20 year old that had done nothing wrong and had not been at the house for many months.


Bullet holes are everywhere - in the propane tank, which started a fire in the house as it filled the air with gas, in the clothes washer, in the closets and the clothes. Every water tank has been punctured, the television smashed. The few belongings they have are strewn everywhere, even the sugar and rice were dragged out and shot. Olive oil was poured all over the floor, and grenades went off right next to the children's beds. Shells are everywhere - in every room, stairwell,and corner. All this for the sake of terror. The children were terrified. I'm worried that they will be back tonight, but even more worried about another family here in Balata. In this family, they shot a 17 year old in the stomach last night and left him for 30 minutes with no medical attention. They never called an ambulance, and I don't know if he is still alive or if he to has become a shahiid. The army promised that if the boys brother, who they came for, doesn't turn himself in today they will be back in the night to bomb the house. But this, it seems, is Israeli justice. Terrorize, kill at will.

[Simply Joel]

For someone that is always asking for bipartisanships Joel, you are sure showing a bigoted side to each story you make.

sooooo, i am entitled to an opinion, and if it doesn't meet with your approval, then it gets titled "bigoted"

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

sorry, my opinions don't meet the requirements of the defintion.

and... using a hot button adjective has little or no effect on me, or my opinions, thank you very much.

[Simply Joel]

Yet another olive branch....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 10, 2004
Israel Agrees to Ramallah Burial Site for Arafat
By ELAINE SCIOLINO and TERENCE NEILAN

PARIS, Nov. 10 - The Israeli government agreed today to a Palestinian request that Yasir Arafat, who is clinging to life in a military hospital near Paris, be buried in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

A statement issued by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office said, "It is our intention to allow the funeral and burial in Ramallah.''

Once Mr. Arafat is dead, his body will be flown first to Cairo, where a government official was quoted as saying today that funeral services would be held at the airport. Mr. Arafat's body will then be taken to Jordan on its way to Ramallah, where Mr. Arafat was holed up in his battered compound by the Israelis for close to three years.

"We will hold the funeral in Egypt and after that we will take President Arafat, after his long life, to Ramallah,'' an Egyptian presidential spokesman, Maged Abdel-Fatah, told reporters, Reuters said. He said the services would be "limited in scope,'' Agence-France Presse reported.

In another indication of Mr. Arafat's impending death, a senior Muslim cleric, Taissir Dayut Tamimi, arrived today at the Palestinian leader's bedside. Mr. Tamimi, the head of the Islamic court in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said his trip to Paris was intended "to be near President Arafat at this crucial time." He is likely to be asked to wash the body, and would also provide another credible witness to Mr. Arafat's demise.

Today Mr. Tamimi told reporters after seeing Mr. Arafat and reading Koranic verses at his bedside: "He is sick and his condition is very difficult, but he remains alive. As long as there is a manifestation of life present, from movement to temperature in the body, then he is alive.''

The choice of Ramallah as a burial site seemed to be a concession to Israel, which has steadfastly refused to allow Mr. Arafat's own preference for burial in Jerusalem.

The issue grew more critical as the condition of the 75-year-old Palestinian leader has worsened. But the apparent pragmatism driving the Palestinians offers a hint that their coming leadership may be more open to compromise.

In Ramallah, the cabinet secretary, Tayeb Abdel Rahim, said the Palestinian leadership had decided that Mr. Arafat would be buried there, in his headquarters, the Muqata. "If the fate of God comes, all the arrangements will be made here in the Muqata, which is considered a symbol of Palestinian steadfastness," he said.

The Israelis favored Gaza, since it is isolated and Mr. Arafat's father and sister are buried there. But Israeli officials do not want to give any unnecessary reason for unrest in the Palestinian territories, officials say.

On Tuesday a four-man delegation of Mr. Arafat's top aides and potential heirs visited the hospital where he has been treated since Oct. 29. One of the aides, Nabil Shaath, described Mr. Arafat's condition as "critical," but said that his brain, heart and lungs were still functioning and that his removal from life support systems had been ruled out.

"He is alive," Mr. Shaath, the Palestinian foreign minister, said of Mr. Arafat, the guerrilla fighter and Nobel Prize winner who has symbolized the Palestinian struggle for statehood for four decades. "He will live or die on the ability of his body to resist - and on the will of God."

Speaking at a news conference in a Paris hotel, Mr. Shaath also said doctors treating Mr. Arafat had excluded cancer and poisoning as a cause of his illness, but still had not been able to pinpoint the precise cause.

"We don't have a full understanding of why his state has deteriorated, which means we don't really have a full diagnosis," Mr. Shaath said. But he said doctors blamed in part Mr. Arafat's age and his long confinement in his unsanitary and cramped headquarters in Ramallah by Israeli forces for his declining health.

On a day flooded with unconfirmed reports and official denials that Mr. Arafat was dead, Mr. Shaath said, "I don't see any reason to make rumors precipitating his death or hoping for a quick recovery," adding: "I want to rule out any question of euthanasia. People talk like his life is plugged in and plugged out."

Mr. Shaath's appearance on Tuesday was the first time that the Palestinians have been able to report with authority on Mr. Arafat's condition.

It follows an angry, unseemly battle with Mr. Arafat's 41-year-old wife, Suha, who has used the protection of French law to forbid the Palestinian leadership access to her husband and his doctors and to bar the release of any detailed information about his health.

The four-man delegation of Mr. Arafat's potential heirs, which included Mr. Shaath, visited the the hospital where he has been treated since Oct. 29.

Of the four Palestinian leaders, only Ahmed Qurei, the prime minister of the Palestinian Authority, was allowed to see Mr. Arafat, Mr. Shaath said. Mr. Qurei spent about two hours by his bedside.

The other members of the Palestinian delegation included Mahmoud Abbas, secretary general and No..2 in the Palestine Liberation Organization, and Rawhi Fattouh, the speaker of the Parliament. , an Arafat loyalist. Palestinian law says that in the event of Mr. Arafat's death, the speaker becomes president of the Palestinian Authority for 60 days, and elections must be held for a successor.

Mr. Abbas is the most likely successor, to Mr. Arafat, and he has made common cause with Mr. Qurei. Neither is especially popular among Palestinians, with little of the street credibility and aura that surrounded Mr. Arafat.

The delegation was warmly received in separate meetings on Tuesday with President Jacques Chirac and Foreign Minister Michel Barnier, an important political gesture giving more weight to the emerging leadership now gathered in Paris.

Both official meetings were largely ceremonial rather than substantive, French officials said. The Palestinian delegation warmly thanked Mr. Chirac for arranging Mr. Arafat's transfer to Paris and medical care.

Mr. Chirac called Mr. Arafat "a friend" and pledged his commitment to mobilize the Europeans to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian crisis, Palestinian officials said. The two sides also spoke about the need for a structured, disciplined transfer of power under the Palestinians' constitution in the event of Mr. Arafat's death.

In the news conference, on Tuesday, Mr. Shaath struggled tried to minimize differences with Mrs. Arafat, dismissing angry remarks she made Monday as an "accident of psychological tensions."

He described Mrs. Arafat at the hospital on Tuesday as a weeping woman under stress, who embraced the members of the delegation.

"We assured her of our love and sympathy," he said. "We never talked about money." He was alluding to rumors that Mrs. Arafat was demanding more money from the Palestinians.

The first report that Mr. Arafat's health had deteriorated further came Tuesday morning, when Gen. Christian Estripeau, the hospital spokesman, told journalists that Mr. Arafat's health had "worsened during the night" and that "the comatose state that led to his admission into intensive care" had deepened.

After Reuters, citing unidentified Palestinian officials, reported that Mr. Arafat had died, General Estripeau told Agence France-Presse, "Mr. Arafat is not dead."

In Gaza on Tuesday night, about 300 armed members of Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades marched through the streets, firing guns and shouting their devotion to Mr. Arafat. Despite a Palestinian legislative council request that all factions refrain from displaying or using firearms, the militants shot freely in the air. Using Mr. Arafat's nom de guerre, they chanted, "Israel bears responsibility for all that happens to Abu Ammar!"

In Rafah, near the Egyptian border, there was another march through the streets by Palestinians displaying support for Mr. Arafat.

In the West Bank, meanwhile, Saeb Erakat, Palestinian negotiations minister, was quoted as saying doctors were trying to stop Mr. Arafat's brain from hemorrhaging.

In Paris, the Palestinian delegation, which was departing for home on Tuesday night, struggled to give the impression that there was a possibility that its leader might recover.

After their meeting at Élysée Palace with Mr. Chirac, Mr. Abbas told reporters: "President Arafat is in a very difficult situation. We wish him a swift recovery."The first report that Mr. Arafat's health had deteriorated further came Tuesday morning, when Gen. Christian Estripeau, the hospital spokesman, told journalists that Mr. Arafat's health had "worsened during the night" and that "the comatose state that led to his admission into intensive care" had deepened.

After Reuters, citing unidentified Palestinian officials, reported that Mr. Arafat had died, General Estripeau told Agence France-Presse, "Mr. Arafat is not dead."

In Gaza on Tuesday night, about 300 armed members of Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades marched through the streets, firing guns and shouting their devotion to Mr. Arafat. Despite a Palestinian legislative council request that all factions refrain from displaying or using firearms, the militants shot freely in the air. Using Mr. Arafat's nom de guerre, they chanted, "Israel bears responsibility for all that happens to Abu Ammar!"

In Rafah, near the Egyptian border, there was another march through the streets by Palestinians displaying support for Mr. Arafat.

In the West Bank, meanwhile, Saeb Erakat, Palestinian negotiations minister, was quoted as saying doctors were trying to stop Mr. Arafat's brain from hemorrhaging.

In Paris, the Palestinian delegation, which was departing for home on Tuesday night, struggled to give the impression that there was a possibility that its leader might recover.

After their meeting at Élysée Palace with Mr. Chirac, Mr. Abbas told reporters: "President Arafat is in a very difficult situation. We wish him a swift recovery."

Elaine Sciolino reported from Paris for this article and Terence Neilan reported from New York. Steven Erlanger and Greg Myre contributed reporting from Jerusalem.


Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

[Apollonaris Zeus]

Lets not kid ourselves. There will be no peace until the Isrealis agree (as close as can be) to the Oslo Agreement!

That is the sharing, known as the partitioning of of Jerusalem!

Without that sharing, the terrorism will continue!

The Israelis just don't know how well off they are and will be. How many kindoms of ancient times rise out of the ashes to exist once again?

The Palistinians should never give up that right that the United Nations had given them.

But the fight should be done in a peaceful maner with lots of demostrations and no death. This will show the Isrealis that they can be a partner that will allow all faiths to move back and forth without harm.

But I have doubts that the children of Abraham can be so kind to each other. Their history is full internal sibling infighting.

A II Z

[mycillion]

nope, he isn't dead yet...

however, i do find it ironic that Yasir Arafat is going to die of natural causes (old age) while hundreds if not thousands have died due to his leadership (for the lack of a better word).

Are you really that stupid..? Or this is performance art maybe...

[Simply Joel]

nope, he isn't dead yet...

however, i do find it ironic that Yasir Arafat is going to die of natural causes (old age) while hundreds if not thousands have died due to his leadership (for the lack of a better word).

Are you really that stupid..? Or this is performance art maybe...

your opinion is duly noted, and deservedly ignored.


The End of the Right of Self-Defense? Israel, the World Court, and the War on Terror by Andrew C. McCarthy

use link below...
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/artic ... 11804019_1

[Simply Joel]

good riddance... next.

[shitmouse]

one less cockroach in the kitchen. yay! maybe castro will follow his lead.
i want to visit cuba damnit.
-b

[cowboyangel]

good riddance... next.

ok...uncle dick, w, wolffie, pearly, carl, elliot, donald, ......