Just to be able to get a decent cigar!!shitmouse wrote:one less cockroach in the kitchen. yay! maybe castro will follow his lead.
i want to visit cuba damnit.
-b
Yasir Arafat dies, world peace has a chance....
- samtzu
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The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer
hey, no offense to dominican cigars, but yes. i would like to fill my humidor with some romeo and julietas, what the heck.samtzu wrote:Just to be able to get a decent cigar!!shitmouse wrote:one less cockroach in the kitchen. yay! maybe castro will follow his lead.
i want to visit cuba damnit.
-b
-b
=-=-= \<>/ =-=-=
- samtzu
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Bingo! Dominicans are the next best thing, but I have yet to find anything that could match a real cuban... cuban seed tobacco is good, if grown in the right place, but real cuban tobacco is the best.
check out this place in Vegas... they hand roll cuban seed tobacco on the premises... great cigars at a great price...
http://www.donpablocigars.com/
check out this place in Vegas... they hand roll cuban seed tobacco on the premises... great cigars at a great price...
http://www.donpablocigars.com/
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer
must be some loop holes there in vegas. --(it IS vegas anyhoo)...
considering how close (the) dominican rep. and cuba are to each other, with cuban seed you'd think they would be the same. but in the end, the best ciggies i've had were indeed from cuba. supposing one could get an equally great cigar from miami being it's closer to havana/cuba than the dominican is.
and hairyfat is dead.
-b
considering how close (the) dominican rep. and cuba are to each other, with cuban seed you'd think they would be the same. but in the end, the best ciggies i've had were indeed from cuba. supposing one could get an equally great cigar from miami being it's closer to havana/cuba than the dominican is.
and hairyfat is dead.
-b
=-=-= \<>/ =-=-=
- samtzu
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Tobacco takes on the quality of the soil it is grown in, to the point where it becomes a different type of plant depending on the soil. Don't know what it is about the soil in Cuba, but it is a different tobacco. Cuban seed tobacco is simple the seeds transported to a different place and planted there. I'm curious to see what Cuban seed planted in Oregon would taste like... mushrooms is my guess...
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer
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Rian Jackson
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looking back, again:
11 November 2003
Today three of us were heading for the salon. It's supposed to be quite the experience, very much a women's place. I didn't need or want anything done to me, but it seemed worth it just to experience it. On the way, of course, the jeysh - military - foiled our plans. There was a hummer at the end of Balata camp, between Balata and Askar. We called the other ISMers out of their meeting to come and join us.
It was hard to find a good place to put ourselves. The shebab kept getting behind us and surrounding us, and we have a policy of not becoming human shields. Also, we needed to stay in view of the jeysh to be at all effective. We decided to cross the plaza in the pouring rain to be nearer to the vehicle. The street was covered in rubble from yesterday's confrontation and from the roadblocks. It was turning to mud in the rain that had started the night before and had not relented.
The soldiers were trying to flirt, think. They stuck a loadspeaker out of the hummer window and piped the radio through it. Not funny. Not cool. But hard not to laugh all the same, I'm not sure with exasperation or what. There was something comical about it... a reminder that they are just children, younger than us. I kept my camera pointed at them as a deterrent, and for a while they did nothing but sit there.
However, our attention was soon drawn to the street next to it, which heads toward the bottom of Balata. There three vehicles - one jeep close by and another jeep, along with a tank, stationed down the road. Shebab were everywhere, but doing little. It seemed that if the jeysh didn't challenge the camp itself - if they didn't try to enter - the shebab would merely watch. However, as always, the jeysh pushed the limits, just to show their power.
Two of us followed the hummer as if disappeared down a narrow, muddy alley and drove out onto the street with the tank, on the other side of their own roadblock. A few of us stayed on that end to watch for movement from the tank and monitor the jeeps.
From atop the roadblock, I kept my camera readied at an angle in line with the opening when the back door of the jeep swung open. The soldier clearly saw the camera, and shut it quickly every time. He did not was to be photographed.
All in all, it wasn't nearly as bad as yesterday, except for one moment when the jeysh shot live rounds at a brave shebab on a roof. We organised some ISMers to head up there - to sit at the edge with cameras pointed downward.
We did have one injury, from a rock to the head. She is ok, but has been sleeping most of the afternoon since then. She doesn't seem to be in any real danger, but i certainly don't envy the headache she must have.
The vehicles were much more mobile today, and much less threatening than yesterday. I can't tell what their agenda was.
Of course, this is also just one of three attacks today. They came as early as seven am, and then again later in the afternoon. The jeysh seem always to be there. I heard that they also came last night and made more arrests, though we weren't called at all.
The shahiid house (Sabiih, the martyr, was only 16 years old) visit was intense. Sabiih's mother told a story that would drive anyone to martyrdom. The family was kicked from one camp to another, one house after another destroyed.
From what I understand, the boy's father was also shahiid, but because the IOF killed him. Because of him, the uncle also became a shahiid. It sounds like Sameh was with the UPMRC and dragged the uncle 100 meters after he was shot by the jeysh in April of 2002. The moment of recognition when Sameh realized that this was the family was absolutely stunning, heartwrenching... all of a sudden he was family to these people. It was in this uncle's name that Sabiih became a shahiid himself.
Three months before his suicide, the family was terrorized by the police, probably because of the uncle's actions. Sabiih couldn't show his young sisters a good time on holy days, couldn't cross checkpoints to see his sisters in neighboring villages. It sounds like they were under heavy curfew, so he couldn't go outside at 15 years of age. With the soldiers' activities, he couldn't even do what he wanted inside his own home.
And then one day he did it. How long had he planned it? Was he afraid? I hope that is mother is right and he is paradise, insha'allah. He just looks like any 16 year old kid...
I think that she might be right. Everyone that knew Sabiih has two main choices - to forget him or to become shahiid themselves. How many martyrs must there be? How many young, smart, kind people, how many family members, how many pillars of the community, how many grieving people before there need not be shahiid any longer?
Intifada's on. And we count it in children lost, in roadblocks built and removed, in stones thrown, and in shahiid posters. We count it in punctured water tanks, in crying mothers, in razor wire clipped. Or maybe we don't count at all, because there are far too many to count.
11 November 2003
Three shots fired in the streets tonight before breakfast at 5. Apparently, they were avenging Ghassan's murder from a few nights ago. When Mani and I went to dinner at the family's house down the street, two men armed with automatic weapons were striding toward us. What kind of a place is this that the state of Israel has forced onto us? When you bomb the PA justice center, all that is left is vigilante justice.
There is so much sorrow here. And I, too, am melancholy tonight. It's exhausting to be in the middle of it all the time, never knowing when you'll have an hour or two of peace. I can understand why so many Palestinians are depressed... every day there are new reports of people arrested, killed, everyday they jeysh destroying one house or tear gassing another. Who would even want to bear sons, when you know that they will only be imprisoned or killed?
I am tired. The days move slowly, so wrought with danger and anger and fear and indignation, slow as the conversations we have as we struggle to understand across our language barriers.
surlier than thou
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Simply Joel
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sparkletarte
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~
Oh great. One of the things that I love about Cuba is that it hasn't been Americanized, except, of course, for Guantanamo Bay. I want to go there before the US lifts the embargo. Long live Castro!
There are some postive aspects to the embargo. Cuba'a agriculture industry is largely organic, and their health care system has returned to using a large percentage of natural and traditional remedies. Both of these are much better than what we do in North America.
There are some postive aspects to the embargo. Cuba'a agriculture industry is largely organic, and their health care system has returned to using a large percentage of natural and traditional remedies. Both of these are much better than what we do in North America.
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sparkletarte
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~
I'm really sad to hear that Arafat died. The title of this thread is ironic considering that he won a Noble peace prize. I don't recall Sharon and Bush winning one of those. I fear that now that Arafat is gone, Sharon will steamroll right over Palastine, with Bush's help no doubt.
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Simply Joel
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you can't take it with you...
November 11, 2004
Mystery Lingers: Whereabouts of His Hidden Fortune
By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM, Thursday, Nov. 11 - As Yasir Arafat lay dying in Paris, the battle over his legacy involved an unstated but widely acknowledged concern: He personally controlled several billion dollars, and no one else knew where it all was.
The extent and whereabouts of this fortune, which relied on different aides and advisers as co-signers, had been a hidden part of the disputes at his bedside, Israeli and Palestinian officials said, giving the final days of this revolutionary figure the elements of a Victorian novel.
Mr. Arafat, who died early Thursday morning, kept knowledge of the accounts compartmentalized, and only he knew all the details, well-informed Israeli officials said, in assertions confirmed reluctantly by Palestinian officials who did not want to harm Mr. Arafat's legacy.
Much about the financing of the Palestinian movement in the last four decades has been shrouded in secrecy, and its details are hard to pin down. But Palestinians said Mr. Arafat used the money to finance the Palestinian movement and administration, to pay salaries, bestow gifts, ensure loyalty, establish embassies, buy arms and pay groups ranging from charities to young fighters like Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.
Mr. Arafat, abstemious, spent very little money on himself, living like a soldier with a narrow bed and a few uniforms in his closet. But the pattern of his revolutionary days in exile - financing the Palestine Liberation Organization through secret contributions, the black market and extortion, and being ready to run at a moment's notice - persisted most obviously in his refusal to trust others and his desire to keep large amounts of cash available in case of emergency.
There has been much speculation about how much money went to support the lavish living of his wife, Suha, in Paris, with reports from her enemies in the Palestinian Authority of subsidies of some $100,000 a month. But the sums were relatively small compared with Mr. Arafat's total holdings.
But the way he managed money, and the secrecy and corruption surrounding the administration of the Palestinian Authority, have tainted his legacy with ordinary Palestinians and left a burden for his political heirs.
"Some of it will be buried with him," a senior Israeli official said. "He had many special sources, and no one knows the full sum of money in these accounts. Even Suha doesn't know. He had several financial advisers, and each of them knows part of the story. No one knows it all, except Arafat."
Last year, an audit of Palestinian Authority finances by the International Monetary Fund disclosed that Mr. Arafat had diverted $900 million in public funds to a bank account he controlled from 1995 to 2002. Most of the cash, diverted from budget revenues, went to a variety of commercial ventures.
Last February, the French government opened a tax and money-laundering investigation into the deposit of about 11.5 million euros, nearly $15 million at today's rates, into the accounts of Mrs. Arafat between July 2002 and July 2003.
To try to bring some transparency and efficiency to the accounts of the Palestinian Authority, the United States and European Union pressed Mr. Arafat to appoint a former official of the International Monetary Fund, Salam Fayyad, as finance minister. Mr. Fayyad has made efforts to rationalize spending and to account for international aid, and discovered some $600 million in authority funds invested in about 79 commercial ventures for products including Canadian biopharmaceuticals to Algerian cellphones.
But Mr. Fayyad, who has not returned many calls for comment, has in the past acknowledged that he knows only part of the picture.
Many of the sources of the money are now a matter of public record. Money came to the Palestine Liberation Organization from Arab and other governments, the European Union and international aid agencies, as well as from monopolies on the sale of oil, gas, cement and other goods in the West Bank and Gaza.
Through various financial advisers, like Fuad Shubaki, Mr. Arafat and the Palestinians made millions of dollars through special export licenses to sell Iraqi oil that were granted by Saddam Hussein, who was sworn to Israel's destruction and valued Mr. Arafat's support in the 1991 Persian Gulf war, a senior Israeli official said.
Mr. Arafat also granted monopolies to top aides. Mr. Shubaki, now in a Palestinian jail in Jericho, had the monopoly for the varied Palestinian security forces, selling food and imported goods.
Jibril Rajoub, Mr. Arafat's national security adviser, who ran the security forces on the West Bank, was given a monopoly over oil and gas sales there, while his counterpart in Gaza, Muhammad Dahlan, controlled a market in special permits for passage in and out of Gaza, Israeli and United Nations officials said.
A knowledgeable Palestinian official said he "could not deny that these kinds of concessions exist."
Gaza is mostly sand. "But sand for cement costs more in Gaza than in Israel, and the reason is the cut taken by the Palestinian Authority," a senior United Nations aid official said. There are also protection rackets run by the Palestinian security services there and in the West Bank, he said.
There were also legitimate investments in a myriad of companies, many of them in West Africa but also in the United States and Europe.
The Israeli officials suggested that some of the money may now disappear, and agreed with French officials that some of the battling at his deathbed in Paris was an effort to gain information and access to those accounts.
The Israelis believe that Mr. Arafat never signed a will. "He never believed, even when he was sick, that he would die," an Israeli official said. "To my knowledge, he never signed anything."
His death presents severe problems for his political successors, who will need to put their hands on considerable sums to consolidate their positions.
"I think the Palestinians need money, and no one knows where all the money is," a senior Israeli official said. If Mr. Arafat's presumed successor, Mahmoud Abbas, "had the money, then he could consolidate his position faster, but now it will be harder," the official said.
Palestinians have complained that their salaries for the month of Ramadan, which will end in an expensive feast, have been late and paid only in part. In the last few days, Mr. Fayyad has told American officials that he does not have the money to pay the salaries.
Mr. Arafat's most visible current financial adviser, Muhammad Rashid, is a Kurd who is believed to control nearly $1 billion in assets for Mr. Arafat and the P.L.O., Israeli officials said. But Mr. Rashid, who went to Paris to be at Mr. Arafat's bedside, is only one of a number of financial advisers, and not necessarily the main one, they said.
Mr. Shubaki was the chief financial officer of the Palestinian Authority from its beginning in 1994, and has said little about what he knows. Mr. Arafat was pressed by the Americans to jail him after the fiasco of the Karine A incident in 2002, when Palestinian Authority money and Mr. Shubaki were linked through documents to the purchase of 50 tons of arms and explosives. They were to be smuggled into Palestinian territory on a boat called the Karine A, intercepted by the Israelis. That incident broke President Bush's faith in Mr. Arafat, Mr. Bush has said.
In 1997, there were Israeli news reports that some $150 million a year in tax revenue that Israel owed the Palestinians had been sent to a secret bank account in Tel Aviv under Mr. Arafat's personal control. Israeli officials said then that the money was for Mr. Arafat to use to flee with top aides in the event of a coup, or for use to pay off political allies, expenditures that donor nations would not approve.
Jaweed al-Ghussein, a former P.L.O. finance minister who quit under a cloud in 1996 and now lives in London, told The Associated Press that Mr. Arafat's financial empire was worth between $3 billion and $5 billion at the time - a surprisingly large margin of estimate.
He said that in the 1980's, he gave Mr. Arafat a check for some $10 million every month from the P.L.O. budget, to be used to pay fighters and their families. But Mr. Arafat would never account for his spending, citing national security. Mr. Ghussein also said Mr. Hussein had given Mr. Arafat $150 million in three payments for siding with Iraq in the 1991 gulf war.
Mr. Arafat provided money to everyone around him, Palestinians and Israelis said. "He was very friendly to his friends, to ensure they lived well," a Palestinian official said. "And he often gave money to those who criticized him. You want satisfied people around you, not angry ones."
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
Mystery Lingers: Whereabouts of His Hidden Fortune
By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM, Thursday, Nov. 11 - As Yasir Arafat lay dying in Paris, the battle over his legacy involved an unstated but widely acknowledged concern: He personally controlled several billion dollars, and no one else knew where it all was.
The extent and whereabouts of this fortune, which relied on different aides and advisers as co-signers, had been a hidden part of the disputes at his bedside, Israeli and Palestinian officials said, giving the final days of this revolutionary figure the elements of a Victorian novel.
Mr. Arafat, who died early Thursday morning, kept knowledge of the accounts compartmentalized, and only he knew all the details, well-informed Israeli officials said, in assertions confirmed reluctantly by Palestinian officials who did not want to harm Mr. Arafat's legacy.
Much about the financing of the Palestinian movement in the last four decades has been shrouded in secrecy, and its details are hard to pin down. But Palestinians said Mr. Arafat used the money to finance the Palestinian movement and administration, to pay salaries, bestow gifts, ensure loyalty, establish embassies, buy arms and pay groups ranging from charities to young fighters like Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.
Mr. Arafat, abstemious, spent very little money on himself, living like a soldier with a narrow bed and a few uniforms in his closet. But the pattern of his revolutionary days in exile - financing the Palestine Liberation Organization through secret contributions, the black market and extortion, and being ready to run at a moment's notice - persisted most obviously in his refusal to trust others and his desire to keep large amounts of cash available in case of emergency.
There has been much speculation about how much money went to support the lavish living of his wife, Suha, in Paris, with reports from her enemies in the Palestinian Authority of subsidies of some $100,000 a month. But the sums were relatively small compared with Mr. Arafat's total holdings.
But the way he managed money, and the secrecy and corruption surrounding the administration of the Palestinian Authority, have tainted his legacy with ordinary Palestinians and left a burden for his political heirs.
"Some of it will be buried with him," a senior Israeli official said. "He had many special sources, and no one knows the full sum of money in these accounts. Even Suha doesn't know. He had several financial advisers, and each of them knows part of the story. No one knows it all, except Arafat."
Last year, an audit of Palestinian Authority finances by the International Monetary Fund disclosed that Mr. Arafat had diverted $900 million in public funds to a bank account he controlled from 1995 to 2002. Most of the cash, diverted from budget revenues, went to a variety of commercial ventures.
Last February, the French government opened a tax and money-laundering investigation into the deposit of about 11.5 million euros, nearly $15 million at today's rates, into the accounts of Mrs. Arafat between July 2002 and July 2003.
To try to bring some transparency and efficiency to the accounts of the Palestinian Authority, the United States and European Union pressed Mr. Arafat to appoint a former official of the International Monetary Fund, Salam Fayyad, as finance minister. Mr. Fayyad has made efforts to rationalize spending and to account for international aid, and discovered some $600 million in authority funds invested in about 79 commercial ventures for products including Canadian biopharmaceuticals to Algerian cellphones.
But Mr. Fayyad, who has not returned many calls for comment, has in the past acknowledged that he knows only part of the picture.
Many of the sources of the money are now a matter of public record. Money came to the Palestine Liberation Organization from Arab and other governments, the European Union and international aid agencies, as well as from monopolies on the sale of oil, gas, cement and other goods in the West Bank and Gaza.
Through various financial advisers, like Fuad Shubaki, Mr. Arafat and the Palestinians made millions of dollars through special export licenses to sell Iraqi oil that were granted by Saddam Hussein, who was sworn to Israel's destruction and valued Mr. Arafat's support in the 1991 Persian Gulf war, a senior Israeli official said.
Mr. Arafat also granted monopolies to top aides. Mr. Shubaki, now in a Palestinian jail in Jericho, had the monopoly for the varied Palestinian security forces, selling food and imported goods.
Jibril Rajoub, Mr. Arafat's national security adviser, who ran the security forces on the West Bank, was given a monopoly over oil and gas sales there, while his counterpart in Gaza, Muhammad Dahlan, controlled a market in special permits for passage in and out of Gaza, Israeli and United Nations officials said.
A knowledgeable Palestinian official said he "could not deny that these kinds of concessions exist."
Gaza is mostly sand. "But sand for cement costs more in Gaza than in Israel, and the reason is the cut taken by the Palestinian Authority," a senior United Nations aid official said. There are also protection rackets run by the Palestinian security services there and in the West Bank, he said.
There were also legitimate investments in a myriad of companies, many of them in West Africa but also in the United States and Europe.
The Israeli officials suggested that some of the money may now disappear, and agreed with French officials that some of the battling at his deathbed in Paris was an effort to gain information and access to those accounts.
The Israelis believe that Mr. Arafat never signed a will. "He never believed, even when he was sick, that he would die," an Israeli official said. "To my knowledge, he never signed anything."
His death presents severe problems for his political successors, who will need to put their hands on considerable sums to consolidate their positions.
"I think the Palestinians need money, and no one knows where all the money is," a senior Israeli official said. If Mr. Arafat's presumed successor, Mahmoud Abbas, "had the money, then he could consolidate his position faster, but now it will be harder," the official said.
Palestinians have complained that their salaries for the month of Ramadan, which will end in an expensive feast, have been late and paid only in part. In the last few days, Mr. Fayyad has told American officials that he does not have the money to pay the salaries.
Mr. Arafat's most visible current financial adviser, Muhammad Rashid, is a Kurd who is believed to control nearly $1 billion in assets for Mr. Arafat and the P.L.O., Israeli officials said. But Mr. Rashid, who went to Paris to be at Mr. Arafat's bedside, is only one of a number of financial advisers, and not necessarily the main one, they said.
Mr. Shubaki was the chief financial officer of the Palestinian Authority from its beginning in 1994, and has said little about what he knows. Mr. Arafat was pressed by the Americans to jail him after the fiasco of the Karine A incident in 2002, when Palestinian Authority money and Mr. Shubaki were linked through documents to the purchase of 50 tons of arms and explosives. They were to be smuggled into Palestinian territory on a boat called the Karine A, intercepted by the Israelis. That incident broke President Bush's faith in Mr. Arafat, Mr. Bush has said.
In 1997, there were Israeli news reports that some $150 million a year in tax revenue that Israel owed the Palestinians had been sent to a secret bank account in Tel Aviv under Mr. Arafat's personal control. Israeli officials said then that the money was for Mr. Arafat to use to flee with top aides in the event of a coup, or for use to pay off political allies, expenditures that donor nations would not approve.
Jaweed al-Ghussein, a former P.L.O. finance minister who quit under a cloud in 1996 and now lives in London, told The Associated Press that Mr. Arafat's financial empire was worth between $3 billion and $5 billion at the time - a surprisingly large margin of estimate.
He said that in the 1980's, he gave Mr. Arafat a check for some $10 million every month from the P.L.O. budget, to be used to pay fighters and their families. But Mr. Arafat would never account for his spending, citing national security. Mr. Ghussein also said Mr. Hussein had given Mr. Arafat $150 million in three payments for siding with Iraq in the 1991 gulf war.
Mr. Arafat provided money to everyone around him, Palestinians and Israelis said. "He was very friendly to his friends, to ensure they lived well," a Palestinian official said. "And he often gave money to those who criticized him. You want satisfied people around you, not angry ones."
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
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Simply Joel
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time will tell.sparkletarte wrote:I'm really sad to hear that Arafat died. The title of this thread is ironic considering that he won a Noble peace prize. I don't recall Sharon and Bush winning one of those. I fear that now that Arafat is gone, Sharon will steamroll right over Palastine, with Bush's help no doubt.
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Re: you can't take it with you...
32 billion u.s. dollars a year goes to isreal. which is worse?Simply Joel wrote:November 11, 2004
Mystery Lingers: Whereabouts of His Hidden Fortune
By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM, Thursday, Nov. 11 - As Yasir Arafat lay dying in Paris, the battle over his legacy involved an unstated but widely acknowledged concern: He personally controlled several billion dollars, and no one else knew where it all was.
https://www.facebook.com/NeXTCODER
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Simply Joel
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Re: you can't take it with you...
ask a hebrew-american citizen.DVD Burner wrote:32 billion u.s. dollars a year goes to isreal. which is worse?Simply Joel wrote:November 11, 2004
Mystery Lingers: Whereabouts of His Hidden Fortune
By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM, Thursday, Nov. 11 - As Yasir Arafat lay dying in Paris, the battle over his legacy involved an unstated but widely acknowledged concern: He personally controlled several billion dollars, and no one else knew where it all was.
Democrats... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, daily!
slap my salmon, baby
slap my salmon, baby
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Rian Jackson
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funny Joel, there doesn't seem to be a concensus.
i know many who are active in divestment plans and who spend their lives actively working against the Zionist state.
why don't you ask some? you gotta know some will agree with you, but there is a large, strong population of anti-Zionist american Jews.
i know many who are active in divestment plans and who spend their lives actively working against the Zionist state.
why don't you ask some? you gotta know some will agree with you, but there is a large, strong population of anti-Zionist american Jews.
surlier than thou
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Strange. It was'nt that way for me growing up with them. Seems to be a recent thing.Rian Jackson wrote:funny Joel, there doesn't seem to be a concensus.
i know many who are active in divestment plans and who spend their lives actively working against the Zionist state.
why don't you ask some? you gotta know some will agree with you, but there is a large, strong population of anti-Zionist american Jews.
IMHO of course.
https://www.facebook.com/NeXTCODER
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Rian Jackson
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you'll have to clarify.
considering i referred to two (out of a multiplicity of) view points, i really don't know what you're saying.
fer fuckssakes, when are ya'll gonna stop thinking that everyone with the same blood or facial features thinks the same damn way??
take a peak at chomsky, for one very prominent example.
considering i referred to two (out of a multiplicity of) view points, i really don't know what you're saying.
fer fuckssakes, when are ya'll gonna stop thinking that everyone with the same blood or facial features thinks the same damn way??
take a peak at chomsky, for one very prominent example.
surlier than thou
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Simply Joel
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Rian Jackson
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ya abu ammar, alerhamu...
much as you fucked everyone over...
even though you turned into an Israeli puppet...
and did their dirty work...
and ran a corrupt governement...
perhaps once you really meant the best, and had courage...
alerhamu.
(besides, i'm your twice adopted granddaughter, i gotta be a little bit sad at least)
much as you fucked everyone over...
even though you turned into an Israeli puppet...
and did their dirty work...
and ran a corrupt governement...
perhaps once you really meant the best, and had courage...
alerhamu.
(besides, i'm your twice adopted granddaughter, i gotta be a little bit sad at least)
surlier than thou
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Rian Jackson
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Non-violence frightens the army
By Amira Hass
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/499602.html
Ahmed Awad is dangerous for public security. That's what the Shin Bet thinks,
that's what Col. Yossi Adiri thinks, that's what military prosecutor Itai
Pollak thinks. The three are responsible for the issue of an administrative
arrest order against him at the end of October, meaning an arrest without
trial,
without any way to respond to the accusations against him.
Military Judge Adrian Agassi, on the other hand, does not think Awad is
dangerous to public security. He ordered a cancelation of the administrative
arrest
order. But the military judge in the military appeals court, Moshe Tirosh,
agrees that Awad is dangerous to the public. On November 3, he ordered a
cancelation of the cancelation of the administrative arrest order.
The Shin Bet thought the danger from Awad was worth three months in
administrative detention. Adiri thought that he should be jailed for four
months, and
the order he signed designated the dates as from October 28 to February 27.
But Tirosh had the impression that two months' administrative detention is
appropriate, considering the amount of information and its severity that he
found in the request for the arrest. To the decision to cancel the
cancelation of
the administrative order but to shorten the time Awad spends under arrest, he
added, "I hope that the respondent will note that the current arrest is a
warning of what the future holds and turns away from the bad road with its
unhappy
ending. He should pay attention to where he comes from and where he is going,
and that there is someone before whom he will have to give an accounting."
But Awad doesn't have a clue what he must beware of and what is the bad road
to which Judge Tirosh was referring. Tirosh, after all, was basing his
decision on secret material on which the Shin Bet grounded the request for an
administrative detention: the exact same secret material in which Agassi
found no
evidentiary basis for an arrest.
Awad's lawyer, Tamar Peleg, from Moked, the Center for the Defense of the
Individual, also has no way to advise him how to "turn away from the bad road
with its unhappy ending." She also is not allowed to see the classified
material
against her client.
Awad, 42, is a high school teacher, father of six and one of the leaders of
the Committee for the Popular Struggle against the Separation Fence, which
went
up in the village of Burdus. The activity by the residents of that village a
year ago signaled the start of a grass-roots, non-violent Palestinian
struggle
against the route of the fence and its accompanying bulldozers, guards,
military jeeps and soldiers.
Tear gas, beatings and shootings did not deter them. Quite a few Israelis
joined their struggle, and ties of friendship and trust have been formed
between
them and the residents of the village.
The struggle bore fruit. A spectacular olive grove that sprawls over a few
hundred dunam was saved. The defense establishment decided to move the route
of
the fence westward, so as not to harm the trees. About 100 dunam of farmland
remained that the fence was going to swallow up. The village decided to show
self-restraint, to concede. They understood their victory was impressive. But
then it turned out that the bulldozers deviated from the route that was
agreed
upon in the compromise between the army and the court. So the villagers
resumed
their demonstrations.
To prevent their demonstrations, the army and Border Police have been
operating in the last three months with considerable aggression and violence
against
all the residents of the village. The demonstrations have been dispersed with
more violence than usual. For 15 days the army imposed a de facto curfew on
the village. The minute the children reached their schools, the troops fanned
out in the village, took up positions, and did not allow people to leave
their
homes. The children were too frightened to leave school on their own.
That's when Awad was arrested. As opposed to the other members of the
committee who belong to Fatah, Awad, as he admits, spent a year in prison in
1997 for
belonging to Hamas. Last year he was actively involved in developing the
non-violent approach to the struggle.
"Instead of the fence, my friends and I managed to establish bridges of trust
between us and the Jews," he said to Judge Agassi. "We let the world
understand that there can be coexistence between us and the Jews."
According to the Shin Bet, military prosecution and Judge Tirosh, the danger
referred to in the classified material does not refer to his activity against
the fence but to "other activity." Peleg was only allowed to cast doubt upon
the severity of the secret, "other activity." The open activity, the grass
roots activity, she said, contributes to security and public order; it
persuades
young Palestinians that there is another way to fight for their rights,
without
going to the Carmel Market to blow up. The hope for change through
non-violent struggle provides a counterweight to the despair that sends
people to acts
of personal vengeance.
But now the despair has been reinforced. Awad will sit in administrative
detention until the end of the year. It is difficult not to think that the
"good
way" he and his colleagues chose in the popular committee is what bothers
some
elements in the army so much: fraternization with the Israelis, the
recognition of a joint Palestinian-Israeli struggle against the occupation,
the popular
struggle's success at changing the military decisions, the refusal to be
dragged into violence compared to the violence of the army and occupation.
By Amira Hass
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/499602.html
Ahmed Awad is dangerous for public security. That's what the Shin Bet thinks,
that's what Col. Yossi Adiri thinks, that's what military prosecutor Itai
Pollak thinks. The three are responsible for the issue of an administrative
arrest order against him at the end of October, meaning an arrest without
trial,
without any way to respond to the accusations against him.
Military Judge Adrian Agassi, on the other hand, does not think Awad is
dangerous to public security. He ordered a cancelation of the administrative
arrest
order. But the military judge in the military appeals court, Moshe Tirosh,
agrees that Awad is dangerous to the public. On November 3, he ordered a
cancelation of the cancelation of the administrative arrest order.
The Shin Bet thought the danger from Awad was worth three months in
administrative detention. Adiri thought that he should be jailed for four
months, and
the order he signed designated the dates as from October 28 to February 27.
But Tirosh had the impression that two months' administrative detention is
appropriate, considering the amount of information and its severity that he
found in the request for the arrest. To the decision to cancel the
cancelation of
the administrative order but to shorten the time Awad spends under arrest, he
added, "I hope that the respondent will note that the current arrest is a
warning of what the future holds and turns away from the bad road with its
unhappy
ending. He should pay attention to where he comes from and where he is going,
and that there is someone before whom he will have to give an accounting."
But Awad doesn't have a clue what he must beware of and what is the bad road
to which Judge Tirosh was referring. Tirosh, after all, was basing his
decision on secret material on which the Shin Bet grounded the request for an
administrative detention: the exact same secret material in which Agassi
found no
evidentiary basis for an arrest.
Awad's lawyer, Tamar Peleg, from Moked, the Center for the Defense of the
Individual, also has no way to advise him how to "turn away from the bad road
with its unhappy ending." She also is not allowed to see the classified
material
against her client.
Awad, 42, is a high school teacher, father of six and one of the leaders of
the Committee for the Popular Struggle against the Separation Fence, which
went
up in the village of Burdus. The activity by the residents of that village a
year ago signaled the start of a grass-roots, non-violent Palestinian
struggle
against the route of the fence and its accompanying bulldozers, guards,
military jeeps and soldiers.
Tear gas, beatings and shootings did not deter them. Quite a few Israelis
joined their struggle, and ties of friendship and trust have been formed
between
them and the residents of the village.
The struggle bore fruit. A spectacular olive grove that sprawls over a few
hundred dunam was saved. The defense establishment decided to move the route
of
the fence westward, so as not to harm the trees. About 100 dunam of farmland
remained that the fence was going to swallow up. The village decided to show
self-restraint, to concede. They understood their victory was impressive. But
then it turned out that the bulldozers deviated from the route that was
agreed
upon in the compromise between the army and the court. So the villagers
resumed
their demonstrations.
To prevent their demonstrations, the army and Border Police have been
operating in the last three months with considerable aggression and violence
against
all the residents of the village. The demonstrations have been dispersed with
more violence than usual. For 15 days the army imposed a de facto curfew on
the village. The minute the children reached their schools, the troops fanned
out in the village, took up positions, and did not allow people to leave
their
homes. The children were too frightened to leave school on their own.
That's when Awad was arrested. As opposed to the other members of the
committee who belong to Fatah, Awad, as he admits, spent a year in prison in
1997 for
belonging to Hamas. Last year he was actively involved in developing the
non-violent approach to the struggle.
"Instead of the fence, my friends and I managed to establish bridges of trust
between us and the Jews," he said to Judge Agassi. "We let the world
understand that there can be coexistence between us and the Jews."
According to the Shin Bet, military prosecution and Judge Tirosh, the danger
referred to in the classified material does not refer to his activity against
the fence but to "other activity." Peleg was only allowed to cast doubt upon
the severity of the secret, "other activity." The open activity, the grass
roots activity, she said, contributes to security and public order; it
persuades
young Palestinians that there is another way to fight for their rights,
without
going to the Carmel Market to blow up. The hope for change through
non-violent struggle provides a counterweight to the despair that sends
people to acts
of personal vengeance.
But now the despair has been reinforced. Awad will sit in administrative
detention until the end of the year. It is difficult not to think that the
"good
way" he and his colleagues chose in the popular committee is what bothers
some
elements in the army so much: fraternization with the Israelis, the
recognition of a joint Palestinian-Israeli struggle against the occupation,
the popular
struggle's success at changing the military decisions, the refusal to be
dragged into violence compared to the violence of the army and occupation.
surlier than thou
- DVD Burner
- Posts: 11031
- Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:09 am
- Burning Since: 1986
- Camp Name: White Trash Camp
- Contact:
-
Simply Joel
- Posts: 3483
- Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Land of Lincoln
- Contact:
Casting a Vote for Peace
November 12, 2004
Casting a Vote for Peace
By JIMMY CARTER
Atlanta
For more than 40 years, Yasir Arafat was the undisputed leader of the fragmented and widely dispersed Palestinian community and the symbol of its cause. His pre-eminent role was not perpetuated by his boldness or clarity of purpose, but was protected from challenge by his status as the only common denominator around which the disparate factions could find a rallying point.
It was very frustrating to deal with Mr. Arafat in seeking a clear position of the Palestinians, because he was very careful to avoid making a final decision that, when revealed, might arouse intense opposition or rebellion from one of the many competing groups that accepted him as its spokesman. At the same time, his sensitive political antennas endowed him with the ability to enunciate a consensus with reasonable accuracy.
When given a chance by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin of Israel, Mr. Arafat responded well by concluding the Oslo Agreement of 1993, which spelled out a mutually satisfactory relationship on geographical boundaries between Israel and the Palestinians. The resulting absence of serious violence by either side was broken when a Jewish nationalist assassinated Mr. Rabin. Mr. Arafat later rejected a proposal devised by President Bill Clinton and Prime Minister Ehud Barak of Israel, but its basic terms have led to positive initiatives between private groups of Israelis and Palestinians, in particular one known as the Geneva Accords. This proposal addresses the major issues that must be resolved through further official negotiations before a permanent peace can be realized.
In effect, peace efforts of a long line of previous administrations have been abandoned by President Bush and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. For the last three years of his life, Mr. Arafat was incapacitated and held as a prisoner, humiliated by his physical incarceration and excluded by the other two leaders from any recognition as the legitimate head of the Palestinian community. Recognizing Mr. Arafat's failure to control violence among his people or to initiate helpful peace proposals, I use the word "legitimate" based on his victory in January 1996 by a strong majority of votes in an election monitored by the Carter Center and approved by the occupying Israelis.
Lately, with Mr. Arafat politically and physically debilitated, the resulting leadership vacuum has been filled by factions, some of which have resorted to unconscionable acts of terrorism. The Israelis have used this political interregnum to impose their will unilaterally throughout Palestinian territories, with undeviating support from Washington. When the widely respected leader Mahmoud Abbas was chosen by the Palestinian governing authority to act as its alternative peace negotiator, his effectiveness was undermined by both Mr. Arafat (who saw his authority threatened) and by Mr. Sharon (who preferred to make decisions without considering a strong Palestinian voice).
If a respected successor to Mr. Arafat can be chosen by the Palestinians (not by the Israelis or Americans), then there is a new opportunity to initiate peace negotiations. While Mr. Abbas was elected by the organization yesterday as the chairman, it is unlikely that he or any other leader can achieve political legitimacy unless chosen through a democratic process.
Moreover, serious obstacles exist now that were not present in 1996. At that time, Palestinians were permitted to move freely, to campaign and to vote throughout Gaza and the West Bank. This included East Jerusalem, despite a last-minute altercation about whether votes were being "cast in" or "mailed from" voting places in post offices. Now, many more illegal Israeli settlements have been built throughout the West Bank, a road system connects them like a spider web, and a wall is being constructed that encroaches in substantial ways into Palestinian territory from the internationally accepted boundary.
Another deeply disturbing change is the decision by Hamas and other militant factions to resort to suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism, whereas the hope for peace and justice discouraged such violence eight years ago. After that election, Hamas representatives rejected my efforts to have them accept Mr. Arafat as their political leader, and they continue to act independently.
Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain has stated recently that peace in the Middle East is the most important international issue. It is to be hoped that, in Washington and Jerusalem, there is also recognition that a bold and balanced move to achieve this goal will help to attenuate the Middle East tension and hatred that exacerbates the global threat of terrorism.
Jimmy Carter, the 39th president of the United States, is chairman of the Carter Center and winner of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
Casting a Vote for Peace
By JIMMY CARTER
Atlanta
For more than 40 years, Yasir Arafat was the undisputed leader of the fragmented and widely dispersed Palestinian community and the symbol of its cause. His pre-eminent role was not perpetuated by his boldness or clarity of purpose, but was protected from challenge by his status as the only common denominator around which the disparate factions could find a rallying point.
It was very frustrating to deal with Mr. Arafat in seeking a clear position of the Palestinians, because he was very careful to avoid making a final decision that, when revealed, might arouse intense opposition or rebellion from one of the many competing groups that accepted him as its spokesman. At the same time, his sensitive political antennas endowed him with the ability to enunciate a consensus with reasonable accuracy.
When given a chance by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin of Israel, Mr. Arafat responded well by concluding the Oslo Agreement of 1993, which spelled out a mutually satisfactory relationship on geographical boundaries between Israel and the Palestinians. The resulting absence of serious violence by either side was broken when a Jewish nationalist assassinated Mr. Rabin. Mr. Arafat later rejected a proposal devised by President Bill Clinton and Prime Minister Ehud Barak of Israel, but its basic terms have led to positive initiatives between private groups of Israelis and Palestinians, in particular one known as the Geneva Accords. This proposal addresses the major issues that must be resolved through further official negotiations before a permanent peace can be realized.
In effect, peace efforts of a long line of previous administrations have been abandoned by President Bush and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. For the last three years of his life, Mr. Arafat was incapacitated and held as a prisoner, humiliated by his physical incarceration and excluded by the other two leaders from any recognition as the legitimate head of the Palestinian community. Recognizing Mr. Arafat's failure to control violence among his people or to initiate helpful peace proposals, I use the word "legitimate" based on his victory in January 1996 by a strong majority of votes in an election monitored by the Carter Center and approved by the occupying Israelis.
Lately, with Mr. Arafat politically and physically debilitated, the resulting leadership vacuum has been filled by factions, some of which have resorted to unconscionable acts of terrorism. The Israelis have used this political interregnum to impose their will unilaterally throughout Palestinian territories, with undeviating support from Washington. When the widely respected leader Mahmoud Abbas was chosen by the Palestinian governing authority to act as its alternative peace negotiator, his effectiveness was undermined by both Mr. Arafat (who saw his authority threatened) and by Mr. Sharon (who preferred to make decisions without considering a strong Palestinian voice).
If a respected successor to Mr. Arafat can be chosen by the Palestinians (not by the Israelis or Americans), then there is a new opportunity to initiate peace negotiations. While Mr. Abbas was elected by the organization yesterday as the chairman, it is unlikely that he or any other leader can achieve political legitimacy unless chosen through a democratic process.
Moreover, serious obstacles exist now that were not present in 1996. At that time, Palestinians were permitted to move freely, to campaign and to vote throughout Gaza and the West Bank. This included East Jerusalem, despite a last-minute altercation about whether votes were being "cast in" or "mailed from" voting places in post offices. Now, many more illegal Israeli settlements have been built throughout the West Bank, a road system connects them like a spider web, and a wall is being constructed that encroaches in substantial ways into Palestinian territory from the internationally accepted boundary.
Another deeply disturbing change is the decision by Hamas and other militant factions to resort to suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism, whereas the hope for peace and justice discouraged such violence eight years ago. After that election, Hamas representatives rejected my efforts to have them accept Mr. Arafat as their political leader, and they continue to act independently.
Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain has stated recently that peace in the Middle East is the most important international issue. It is to be hoped that, in Washington and Jerusalem, there is also recognition that a bold and balanced move to achieve this goal will help to attenuate the Middle East tension and hatred that exacerbates the global threat of terrorism.
Jimmy Carter, the 39th president of the United States, is chairman of the Carter Center and winner of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
Democrats... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, daily!
slap my salmon, baby
slap my salmon, baby
-
Rian Jackson
- Posts: 3903
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
- Location: In Rob's Head
One year ago.
Bruce, my cohort from here at home, was arrested and beaten in a non-violent action. It took him weeks to recover from his head wounds. At any rate, someone had to hire him a lawyer so that they wouldn't try him as an illegal alien....12 November 2003
Today was my first day at checkpoint watch. We tried Beit Furik first, but an Israeli group, Maxzum Watch, had it under control and it was running smoothly.
Next we headed to Sabatash. It is an entire valley which has been declared a closed military zone, cutting of the village of Asira from Nablus. A military road runs through the bottom, and to reach it from Nablus you must hike down a steep ravine, trying to keep from view of the soldiers hiding on the hillsides. Last week they shot live rounds at Joey at Sabatash. We had to climb over several earthmounds on the way down. The IOF has, of course, made it completely impassable to vehicles. In truth, Sabatash isn't an actual checkpoint, just a place where they routinely stop people.
From the hillside, it was strangely quiet there. No Palestinians, no soldiers. We even went all the way into the valley, but there was nothing - no jeysh coming from the hillside to stop us. Odd. Perhaps they were in hiding and didn't want to bother with us. Perhaps they weren't there at all. I hear that Asira had a major incursion today and is under curfew. Maybe the soldiers were busy occupying houses. Unfortunately, we didn't find this out early enough to make our way over there. Night movement is dangerous, and Asira is a good 3 miles from the checkpoint. The road to Asira is, of course, utterly bulldozed so no Palestinians can move that way.
We climbed back up the steep valley and walked partway back into Nablus, passing a few Palestinians heading on donkey and foot to Sabatash. I hope that the IOF weren't hiding there somewhere.
We decided to catch a service out to Huwarra checkpoint. Upon arrival, there were about 150 people waiting. They hadn't been there long, most of them - only an hour, which is relatively quite good. Some had been for four hours, I heard. It was moving fairly well for the most part. Two or three had been detained, the youngest no older than 14 who had been trying to earn money for his family by hauling luggage.
Mani and I decided to ask the guards about the detainees, under the pretext of talking with Maxzum Watch. Negotiations may or may not have been helpful, I can't quite tell. Eventually they let the detainees leave - one boy, one young man, and a young woman, everyone but a man who carried both a Palestinian school ID and an Israeli passport.
The great part is that the soldiers were losing control. At one point, the Palestinians had pushed almost all the way through the checkpoint, completely abandoning their queues. A few dozen people even managed to slip past the soldiers altogether. It was fabulous - these little acts of resistance and defiance, small steps toward taking back their world and their lives.
One soldier was pretty bad. He was impossible to deal with, telling the soldiers not to even speak with us. He refused to open up lines of communication. Another was better, and seemed more interested in flirting with me than anything else. There was one older soldier who was just letting people go through, some without even a passport check.
I was really nervous about all of it at first. I knew that as a girl, most of the negotiation would fall on my shoulders. It's one thing to face a tank, but another to be suave enough to negotiate a situation like this. It as a constant dance - apply pressure, retreat, positioning ourselves where we wouldn't be threatening enough to bring reprisals against the Palestinians but still in a place to apply substantial pressure. I got many wonderful smiles from the women there.
On another note, I, apparently, am not girly enough. Our family here reclothed me - new jeans. Mani, too. They also tried to marry us. It was sweet, but too much, too much...
The jeysh apparently came while we were at dinner. By the time we found out and ran outside, they had just left. At least we had other internationals there. I wonder if they will be doing major night incursions again.
15 November 2003
Yesterday was exhausting, and strange. We were up far too early as we had to go to Bruce's deportation hearing at Ben Gurion. Another Nablus ISMer and I hitchhiked much of the way there. The big problem came at Taybeh, trying to get to Netanya. People began to tell us that Netanya was closed, so we had to figure out some other way to get there, and quickly. We ended up hitching from an Israeli named Gil, who spoke with us at length about the situation.
He said that the wall made sense because otherwise the Palestinians would kill all the Israelis. 'Keep it separate' seemed to be his motto. He didn't hold any particular hatred toward the Palestinians, though he seemed to think that Arabs were quite dangerous. 'It will take two generations to make peace, even after a change,' he said. It takes time for people to modify the teachings of their parents.
Gil was fairly kind, straightforward, practical, and, perhaps even saddened by the situation. Mostly he just accepted things the way they were, as nasty but necessary.
It twisted my mind - to say some things, to be able to speak for the Palestinians a little but not so much as to lose our ride or endanger us. Gil was likeable - he didn't like serving his month each year in the reserves, but did it anyway. He says this is his only interaction with Palestinians.
48 ('Israel') was a major culture shock to me. The women looken slutty, although they weren't. The streets looked gaudy. It made me sick to my stomach. All I wanted was to return to Balata then (though I should admit it was freeing to eat in public in the middle of the day!)
We were harassed at the airport by security guards. Did we look suspicious? It was a tough one to dodge - we had to admit that we had Bruce's bags, that they weren't ours. I hated being there, knowing that anyone could turn me in if they knew what I was doing, warily watching the young men with their automatic weapons striding around the food court.
I miss Balata. I feel useless here, as if I am wasting the world's time, betraying my people in the West Bank. I don't know how I am going to deal with Seattle if I couldn't even manage Ben Gurion. Al-Quds was mixed for me - partly a relief, partly too much urbanism. In Balata they look you in the eyes.
I am frustrated to be missing roadblock removal and the activities in Asira today (it is roadblocked and under curfew). I can't wait to get back.
surlier than thou
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Rian Jackson
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Rian Jackson
- Posts: 3903
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
- Location: In Rob's Head
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Rian Jackson
- Posts: 3903
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
- Location: In Rob's Head
more interesting developments:
the shooting in Gaza last week (they're trying to say it wasn't as assassination attempt, but i don't belive it)
and the talk about Barghouthi. a friend of mine says that Israel has discussed releasing him if he runs for office. then i read something today where an israeli official was saying they wouldn't ever release him.
Kitaab Shuhaada al-Aqsa just threw their support behind him. It's a really strong sign.
The talk on al-jazeera is that israel is shitting bricks because Arafat was their excuse. But the likelihood that a free set of elections will elect another puppet is very slim.
Then there's a big issue: how can you have free elections when you can't even move from one city to another?
the shooting in Gaza last week (they're trying to say it wasn't as assassination attempt, but i don't belive it)
and the talk about Barghouthi. a friend of mine says that Israel has discussed releasing him if he runs for office. then i read something today where an israeli official was saying they wouldn't ever release him.
Kitaab Shuhaada al-Aqsa just threw their support behind him. It's a really strong sign.
The talk on al-jazeera is that israel is shitting bricks because Arafat was their excuse. But the likelihood that a free set of elections will elect another puppet is very slim.
Then there's a big issue: how can you have free elections when you can't even move from one city to another?
surlier than thou
- cowboyangel
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