Shade structure question -- post hole digging

[Metorks]

Hi there!

This is our first burn, and we're pretty excited (as you can imagine). Anyhow, I will be building a triangular shade structure that requires three 2x4 upright posts. I've got two options:

Option 1; I place the posts directly on the playa and use tension between the posts and six rebar stakes to keep the posts up. It'll look good, and work well enough in the wind, but it'll involve hammering in a total of nine rebar stakes and a lot of coordinated rope tightening.

Option 2; I forego the rebar and put the posts right into the ground. I'd need to dig three, 24" post holes for that. I've got a post hole digger and 5-gallon buckets to put the soil in, so I'm okay there. I'd still need to pound in three rebar stakes.

The question is, how difficult will it be to dig three 24" post holes in the playa. If it's not terribly difficult then I think I'd prefer that method, as it's certainly going to be more secure. Not to mention there'll be less of a tripping hazard from all the rebar and rope.

BUT, if it's really going to be a pain in the ass to dig by hand, then I'll just go with Option 1 and call it a day.

Any thoughts to share would be greatly appreciated!


- K

[GreyCoyote]

Option 4: use FIGJAMs lag bolts and screw them into the playa? Takes a minute or two, no sweating, and tenacious holding power when done right.

[FIGJAM]

You will play hell digging postholes by hand into the playa.

[Metorks]

Alright! That's all I needed to hear.

So the lag bolts would replace the rebar in option 1? I could try that out. I don't have an issue with the rebar (might pick up some Home Depot stakes, though), but the lag bolts sound interesting. I'd have to borrow a cordless driver from someone though. All I've got is a corded.

Thanks for the suggestion, and the warning.

--EDIT--

Here's what I'm going to build:
http://theultimatehang.com/2013/04/3-pe ... ock-stand/



If you see the image with the three tarps on diagonal, that's what I'm going to attempt. Except I'll be using three bright, colorful king-sized bedsheets. There is plenty of airflow through the structure, so I'm hoping it won't be affected by the wind TOO much. We get some good 50-60 mph microbursts around here, so maybe I'll set it up in the back yard for a while to see how it holds up.

[FossaFerox]

Digging holes is seriously frowned upon as well. It's permitted if it's for structural support, but they have to be dug with an auger or postholer, and they're limited to 6" diameter, 2' in depth. Whether they're allowed or not they fuck up the playa, even if carefully backfilled. Holes from years ago will show up and erode away pretty pervasively. Don't dig holes for your shade structure. Just don't.

[Captain Goddammit]

If you get yourself a power inverter you could run your corded driver from your vehicle - although for the same money you could probably just get a cordless one. Power tools really, really rock in BRC.

[theCryptofishist]

What's the biggest hole the BLM lets people dig out there?

[Metorks]

Hey Fossa, I was aware that only post holes were permitted and that larger holes messed up the playa pretty bad. Didn't know the post holes also screwed up the scenery that badly. I've opted not to do any digging.

[FossaFerox]

What's the biggest hole the BLM lets people dig out there?

6" diamter, 2' depth. Bag the dirt and recompact in stages when you backfill post event (add dirt, add water, tamp it down, repeat). Even then the hole is a permanent scar. They admit as much on the website. I don't get why they allow it to happen.

For trenches (to run cabling) it's max 6" depth with immediate recompaction.

[otakup0pe]

What's the biggest hole the BLM lets people dig out there?

The guideline for "art" is that you cannot remove more than three cubic feet for any one "hole".

[melodiousdirge]

Even then the hole is a permanent scar. They admit as much on the website. I don't get why they allow it to happen.

"Permanent"? If you've got some info to back that up I'd be interested to see it. Disturbing a hole that size and not backfilling it properly could leave an ugly dune that may last more than one year if it gets bad enough, but if you backfill I don't really understand how the homogenizing action of the winter rains could fail to erase the damage. I'm open to being corrected, I just have a hard time taking that at face value.

[FossaFerox]

Even then the hole is a permanent scar. They admit as much on the website. I don't get why they allow it to happen.

"Permanent"? If you've got some info to back that up I'd be interested to see it. Disturbing a hole that size and not backfilling it properly could leave an ugly dune that may last more than one year if it gets bad enough, but if you backfill I don't really understand how the homogenizing action of the winter rains could fail to erase the damage. I'm open to being corrected, I just have a hard time taking that at face value.

http://www.burningman.com/environment/g ... tists.html

Scroll down to "Digging Holes in the Playa".

...resulting in a permanent divot in the playa.

Then there's this one: http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... 9ey3vldXzY

Scroll down to Digging Holes.

Experience has shown that the larger holes easily erode within a year’s time, even when carefully backfilled. They leave a visible mark and create a serious safety hazard to drivers throughout the rest of the year.

So... yeah. The playa can't fix and homogenize ANYTHING. It can turn what's basically flat into almost perfectly flat, but if things get seriously messed up they STAY messed up or even get worse. Especially with the drought we've been experiencing which has fucked up the winter flooding/compaction cycles.

[melodiousdirge]

Alright, well I think that's a bit of an oversimplification, and a misuse of the word "permanent" but I do support the notion that digging ought to be avoided.

[Elderberry]

It's ironic how we worry about the slightest bit of damage to such a deserted piece of wasteland, when the rest of the entire world is allowed to be destroyed by the effects of climate change. Fuck the holes, I'm sure when the glaciers all melt that will take care of them just fine.

FYI this is sarcasm, though it will be interesting to watch all of the comments by those that didn't pick up on that. I really shouldn't have even posted this disclaimer and just sat back and watch the flames fly.

[melodiousdirge]

It's ironic how we worry about the slightest bit of damage to such a deserted piece of wasteland, when the rest of the entire world is allowed to be destroyed by the effects of climate change. Fuck the holes, I'm sure when the glaciers all melt that will take care of them just fine.

I'm sure if the BLM didn't care what shape we left the Playa in, the preservationist culture of BRC might be a little different.

[FossaFerox]

Nah, I'm sure even the people who ran the drive by shooting range picked up all their brass and even their lead at the end of the event back in the day.

As the event has grown, though, and the weather has shifted it has become more and more important to truly make as small an impact as possible. The playa doesn't fully reset so if we fuck it up we're shitting in our own sandbox.

[melodiousdirge]

if we fuck it up we're shitting in our own sandbox.

Hey you'll get no disagreement from me on that front.

[Ratty]

This is what happens when you don't clean up after yourself. You get kicked off the property for future Festivals. (Then it moved to Black Rock Desert and acted more responsibly).

[melodiousdirge]

This is what happens when you don't clean up after yourself. You get kicked off the property for future Festivals. (Then it moved to Black Rock Desert and acted more responsibly).

This is sort of what I meant when I said I'm sure if the BLM didn't care, things would be different. There are still plenty of dickheads who deposit bodily fluids on the playa and throw their trash where they please. There's just enough people who give a shit about being allowed back that it gets cleaned up.

[FossaFerox]

Though I hear the police have IRNV binocs to look for people relieving themselves on the playa. I super support those particular tickets. Playa puddles are disgusting, and I've made the walk from the midnight trash fence back to town while having to pee before. It wasn't fun, but it's doable.

[melodiousdirge]

Though I hear the police have IRNV binocs to look for people relieving themselves on the playa. I super support those particular tickets. Playa puddles are disgusting, and I've made the walk from the midnight trash fence back to town while having to pee before. It wasn't fun, but it's doable.

Pee bottles ftw.

[theCryptofishist]

I don't really understand how the homogenizing action of the winter rains could fail to erase the damage. I'm open to being corrected, I just have a hard time taking that at face value.

What "homogenizing action of the winter rains"? The whole freeze thaw cycle depends on both being cold enough and wet enough. It hasn't been wet enough for the past three winters. No reason to expect things will get wet enough winter of 2014-15.

And even when we have the water and we have the freeze/thaw, that's no guarantee that we have it in the part of the playa where BRC was and will be. We have to adapt our understanding of what happens in the winter in the Black Rock Desert to reflect reality, not historical reality when the city was smaller and global warming less developed to actual reality reality.

[melodiousdirge]

What "homogenizing action of the winter rains"?

Hey I hear what you're saying. I took issue with saying a hole would cause "permanent" damage. My experience with playa, and playa-like soils is that they break into a fine friable powder when disturbed, but add water and allow to dry and they are right back to concrete. The "permanent" divot discussed on the burning man website refers to how the wind will erode the disturbed soil and cause a soft dune, until such time as the playa floods again and gets re-compacted. I'm not saying it's OK for us to leave holes that take a year or more to heal, either. Nor am I suggesting that you can do whatever you want and expect the playa to fix itself; I didn't like the "do not ever dig holes in the playa" tack. Dig holes if you need to; follow the guidelines of 3 cubic feet for best results, and be conscious that you need to carefully backfill when you're done. If you fuck it up, you'll leave a dune that may take as long as a couple years to heal.

I prefer "hey if you're going to do this, try not to be a dumbass" rules to "never do this, because you're probably a dumbass" rules, that's all.

[andy]

[quote="Captain Goddammit"]If you get yourself a power inverter you could run your corded driver from your vehicle - although for the same money you could probably just get a cordless one. Power tools really, really rock in BRC.[/quote]

You really need an IMPACT drill to get lag screws into the playa. A campmate had one last year and it worked OK. You can also safely hammer lag screws in but don't hammer the screw directly, put a spare socket on top and hammer the socket. This way, you don't deform the hex head of the lag screw which could make it tough to get the socket back on to remove it later. --- A friendly lesson from "learned it the hard way".

[FossaFerox]

The thing is even the burning man site says that even with proper back filling holes don't go away in a year. They get worse.

The dense sub playa can't be reformed by wetting it and tamping it by hand. It just can't.

They allow the holes as a necessary evil, but they should be avoided at all costs. It's also where the depth restriction on trenches came from, they don't want you digging a trench into the sub playa.

[melodiousdirge]

You really need an IMPACT drill to get lag screws into the playa.

I used a basic dewalt battery powered drill to drive 18" lags into the playa last year without any problem. Didn't even kill the battery too fast, just zipped 'em in.

put a spare socket on top and hammer the socket. This way, you don't deform the hex head of the lag screw which could make it tough to get the socket back on to remove it later. --- A friendly lesson from "learned it the hard way".

If I can add to this, please be very careful hammering on sockets. Most sockets are made of brittle cast steel and may break if you hammer on them, launching shards everywhere. If you're going to hammer them in, why bother with bolts anyway? Rebar is cheaper and is easier to hammer in.