The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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otakup0pe
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by otakup0pe » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:40 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:MVDS: Lets make this easy for ya. Come to burning man, get dusty, shit-faced drunk, oogle at cool art, cheer the Burn, fall in love, chase sparkleponies, get exhausted, have a major crisis, dehydrate, feed your inner child, and have a life-changing revelation about tulips and windmills.
how dare you tell someone else how to burn

how

dare

you

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by BBadger » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:40 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Everyone keeps saying it only applies to whe you're at the event and if that's the case I would agree with you. It's their wording that kills that. "Anyone may be a part of Burning Man." Then they qualify that further by saying there are no prerequisites! That's obviously talking about being part of burning man, not just "once you're here". That wording should change. Does it honestly sound right to you?
Honestly, I think you're just being obtuse. Nobody qualifies the ability of customers to purchase goods in a store with "oh, but employees get a discount" either -- because it doesn't apply nor affect your ability to buy the goods.

You're conflating two different things. There is no connection between whether every last ticket is open for purchase by anyone and whether people are allowed to be part of Burning Man. It'd be just as ridiculous to put an asterisk on that principle informing people that not everyone can get an early entry pass, a volunteer pass, or even access to the LIT program. Were you up in arms over those? No? Then why not? Because these people were selected to be valuable enough for ensuring the coherency and quality of the event? That they were involved in projects important to the event? That the presence of those individuals needed guarantees or even incentives? The same thing for Directed Distribution. You don't have an event without ensuring that core individuals are able to attend. Directed Distribution is not for ensuring that entire select camps get in, but rather the core members that are required for the camps to function.

"Anyone can be part of Burning Man" means that there are no barriers to purchasing tickets and attending aside from limits on the numbers of tickets available and whatever resources are available to you to facilitate your trip.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by GreyCoyote » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:48 pm

otakup0pe wrote:
GreyCoyote wrote:MVDS: Lets make this easy for ya. Come to burning man, get dusty, shit-faced drunk, oogle at cool art, cheer the Burn, fall in love, chase sparkleponies, get exhausted, have a major crisis, dehydrate, feed your inner child, and have a life-changing revelation about tulips and windmills.
how dare you tell someone else how to burn

how

dare

you
sigh. Another tulip hater. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by otakup0pe » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:52 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:sigh. Another tulip hater. :mrgreen:
but a windmil lover

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:56 pm

Honestly, I think you're just being obtuse. Nobody qualifies the ability of customers to purchase goods in a store with "oh, but employees get a discount" either -- because it doesn't apply nor affect your ability to buy the goods.
Let's try this thought experiment. Let's say that of 68,000 total tickets 67,000 of them went to selected camps and only 1000 in the general sale? Is that radically inclusive? I think everyone would agree that in this extreme example, it is most definitely not.

That's an extreme example and we are far from it but you have to admit that at some point of giving specified groups tickets you can no longer make the claim that there are no "prerequisites" for going to Burning Man. I have no idea what the number are this year but last I think about 10,000 of about 65,000 went to selected camps. At some number, calling that radically inclusive goes out the window.

I looked up the definition of Radical:
(especially of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough.


Can you really say they are far reaching in their attempts to have no prerequisites? Ticket sales is a legal issue because certain things are required and need to be paid for. Now it would be radical to split up camps for the sake of keeping prerequisites away, but there is nothing "radical" about it anymore. Again, I agree with them giving out select tickets. I think they need to preserve the hard working camps that make the event. It's just a change that was forced upon them when we could no longer get everyone a ticket.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Were you up in arms over those?
I'm not up in arms about anything. I agree with their program in general.

I have my own principals. I generally do not lie, but if someone calls me from "Microsoft" telling me that "my IP address has been compromised" (It's a common scam if you didn't know) I will mess with him, play dumb, and flat out lie to him. I also do not say that I am a radical truth teller and that I would never lie to someone regardless of the situation. Sometimes we compromise our principals for the greater good (which I think BMORG did) Should you go advertizing that this is a principal that you live by to a radical extent if you do not?
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by GreyCoyote » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Mikey: the eplaya Committee for Spontaneous Combustion has met to evaluate your request. In your honor, we have renamed it to Ridiculous Inclusion.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:36 pm

Burning Man IS about radical inclusion. The BLM isn't!
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:55 pm

Burning Man IS about radical inclusion. The BLM isn't!
True that the BLM is the limiting factor, but I think they are just trying to be responsible and attempting to keep the event safe and allow people to have some ability to arrive and leave in a timely manner.

I love ridiculous inclusion! Thank you for the "official" change. Now my radical OCD semantics rant can finally end.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by BBadger » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:21 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Let's try this thought experiment. Let's say that of 68,000 total tickets 67,000 of them went to selected camps and only 1000 in the general sale? Is that radically inclusive? I think everyone would agree that in this extreme example, it is most definitely not.

That's an extreme example and we are far from it but you have to admit that at some point of giving specified groups tickets you can no longer make the claim that there are no "prerequisites" for going to Burning Man. I have no idea what the number are this year but last I think about 10,000 of about 65,000 went to selected camps. At some number, calling that radically inclusive goes out the window.
No, what I'm wondering is why suddenly this Directed Distribution became that red line that transformed the event from "radically inclusive" to not-really-so-radically-inclusive. I mean really, what is the standard here, or is there no standard because it just "some number" as you stated above?

If it's some sort of arbitrary number quite frankly I don't think you have anything to go on here. Either that, or the moment tickets ever sold out was the moment that "radically inclusive" didn't exist because now it didn't matter how many resources you had, it didn't guarantee you could attend. That's still not the fault of DD. Other programs, including LIT, guest tickets, honorarium tickets, etc. are equally not so "radically inclusive" as DD, if not moreso. So why single out DD among all of these? An arbitrary number? That's as arbitrary as deciding some ticket price was the cutoff after which Burning Man ceased to be financially radically inclusive. Or maybe location? Or how about time of the year? Or the dominant type of music?

Such flimsy, arbitrary metrics have nothing to do with "radically inclusiveness." Rather it's the concept any person can potentially attend, and aren't going to barred, if the person has a ticket. Nothing is said about whether you'll find a ticket, be able to afford it, be able to afford the trip, be able to allocate the time in your schedule, or anything else. Nothing is said about fairness either, because Burning Man is not about enforcing equality. All of those things have always been limitations to "inclusiveness" -- often moreso than ticket scarcity has ever caused.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Jovankat » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:11 am

It's also not hard to get offered direct group sales access. The camp I was with last year was a first time theme camp run mostly by virgins that ended up failing to offer much to the community because lots of people pulled out and we underestimated how much work it would be. We were green on the MOOP map though and we got offered 5 tokens to access the sale and potentially buy 10 tickets. So actually it looks to me that even the directed group sale is radically inclusive. *Shrug*

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:32 am

Such flimsy, arbitrary metrics have nothing to do with "radically inclusiveness." Rather it's the concept any person can potentially attend, and aren't going to barred, if the person has a ticket.
So then you disagree that in my extreme example above where only 1000 tickets are offered to people who do not meet a prerequisite and you would say that burningman would still be "radically inclusive" and not require any prerequisites to be part of the community?
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by BBadger » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:07 am

MikeVDS wrote:
Such flimsy, arbitrary metrics have nothing to do with "radically inclusiveness." Rather it's the concept any person can potentially attend, and aren't going to barred, if the person has a ticket.
So then you disagree that in my extreme example above where only 1000 tickets are offered to people who do not meet a prerequisite and you would say that burningman would still be "radically inclusive" and not require any prerequisites to be part of the community?
You could have ZERO tickets offered, because the number of tickets offered for sale -- at any number -- fundamentally has nothing to do with "radical inclusion." It doesn't even have to do with attending! It's about the culture. It's not, however, "radically entitled to be able to own a ticket."

If you're trying to tie this "radical inclusion" concept to any sort of privilege, here's some news for you: nothing will ever satisfy that form of "radical inclusion." There are people who will never have the opportunity to even contemplate attending. That form does not exist, and is certainly not the intent of the principle. Therefore, to tie "radical inclusion" to something so arbitrary as some made-up ticket number threshold is absolutely ridiculous and completely misses the point of the principle.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Corvus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:14 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:I brought along a couple friends for their first time in 2001... we arrived Sunday night, and there was a Holy Mother Of God dust storm blowing. We had just driven 700 miles, and it took a lot of effort for me to convince them not to turn around and go back home!
I do seem to remember the dust storms used to be worse, the heat a lot hotter... WTF is going on?
So, I'm curious. Did they
1) have a good time once the dust went down and
2) come back (or at least want to) the next year?

When somebody tells me they want to attend TTITD after seeing something on youtube I tell them most of those are shot in good weather (to spare the gear if nothing else) and that the goggles and dust masks are not a fashion statement.

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:43 am

give Larry a blow job. then you get a ticket. i don't understand what the fucking argument is about.
"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:01 am

You could have ZERO tickets offered, because the number of tickets offered for sale -- at any number -- fundamentally has nothing to do with "radical inclusion."
This is Burning Man's definition of Radical Inclusion, not mine:
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community.
Are you telling me you believe this has nothing to do with attending?

You think this applies even if only some exclusive group is who meet their prerequisites is invited in and no strangers are invited?
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by otakup0pe » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:32 am

MikeVDS wrote:Are you telling me you believe this has nothing to do with attending?

You think this applies even if only some exclusive group is who meet their prerequisites is invited in and no strangers are invited?
Ah yes what a lovely argument that has no basis in reality. There are plenty of regional burns where the "burner culture" appears to be alive and well. I've been to plenty of (completely non affiliated campouts) where the principles hold true. And as it turns out there are plenty of "strangers" (40% new "participants" in 2013) who keep showing up.

Now if you were to start arguing that TTITD is radically exclusive as you have to be willing and able to drop a minimum of near a thousand dollars to participate without being a burden upon others than you might be get some traction. As is from what I can tell you are trying to form the opinion that because there is a ticketing process involved.

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:47 am

Rainbow Gatherings are radically inclusive, they haven't got attendance caps or sky high ticket prices.
Let's be more like them!
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:08 am

As is from what I can tell you are trying to form the opinion that because there is a ticketing process involved.
To me it is not about there being a ticketing process, it's about selecting who the tickets go to. I've said it many times, I am in favor of this program and it's one of their proncipals that needs to be broken for the event to work the way they want (allowing big, hard working, camps to succeed). I'm not saying it's wrong, bad or anything along those lines so I do not see why everyone is so defensive. I am just saying that to me, by creating an exclusive group, they do not fit their own definition of radical inclusion.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by MikeVDS » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:13 am

There are plenty of regional burns where the "burner culture" appears to be alive and well. I've been to plenty of (completely non affiliated campouts) where the principles hold true. And as it turns out there are plenty of "strangers" (40% new "participants" in 2013) who keep showing up.
Even the burn has around 50% newbies each year. The idea and principal is still strong in the community. There is still inclusion, I just do not think the main even meets the standard the set. Many things have changed and will continue to change.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Eric » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:52 pm

The 11th Principle: arguing to hear yourself argue. Or being an old Jew. Kind of the same thing.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:36 pm

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:give Larry a blow job. then you get a ticket. i don't understand what the fucking argument is about.
Eric wrote:The 11th Principle: arguing to hear yourself argue. Or being an old Jew. Kind of the same thing.

[media]
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by Aurelia » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:52 pm

Whew!

Thank you RD, it was so dialectic diatribic , I enjoyed your message.

xoA.

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by BBadger » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:17 pm

otakup0pe wrote:Now if you were to start arguing that TTITD is radically exclusive as you have to be willing and able to drop a minimum of near a thousand dollars to participate without being a burden upon others than you might be get some traction. As is from what I can tell you are trying to form the opinion that because there is a ticketing process involved.
Yeah, wasn't that the first and ever-present form of "exclusivity" the ability pay for the trip at all? That's what elitism is all about right? If "radical inclusivity" ever existed at all, it was never predicated on such things.
Captain Goddammit wrote:Rainbow Gatherings are radically inclusive, they haven't got attendance caps or sky high ticket prices.
Let's be more like them!
Hell, they don't even obtain permits! But even they exclude people because they're not facilitating the attendance of everyone and anyone who wants to attend.

Maybe the whole 11th principle should be: you're not entitled to attend.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by otakup0pe » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:36 pm

BBadger wrote:Maybe the whole 11th principle should be: you're not entitled to attend.
let's just shorten it to "fuck you; got mine"

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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:46 pm

So, where does the 13th Step come into this?
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by GreyCoyote » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:51 am

theCryptofishist wrote:So, where does the 13th Step come into this?
Dunno, but at my house its actually a landing with a wonky railing, so go carefully. :)
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:28 am

GreyCoyote wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:So, where does the 13th Step come into this?
Dunno, but at my house its actually a landing with a wonky railing, so go carefully. :)
I will.
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by FIGJAM » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:25 am

There sure is a lot of speaking about something unspoken! :roll:
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Re: The Unspoken Eleventh Principle

Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:11 pm

The Unspoken Eleventh Principle that can be spoken is not the eternal Unspoken Eleventh Principle
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