Plug n plays running amuk

[Captain Goddammit]

Tiny correction, $100k won't even come close to buying one of those rigs! A brand new pickup and camper can cost that much.
But - I'm a little bit closer to agreeing with you than not. Truth be told, if I was to win the lottery tomorrow, I'd do up a pretty damn luxurious camp myself. However, I'd also put money into interactive "burny" things.

I hear similar sentiments at work or just around town sometimes. I live in (well in a suburb of) Seattle and I don't know if the rest of the country knows it but there's a hell of a lot of money around here. Microsoft is here, Google is here, tech this and tech that, plus Boeing. There are so many $1,000,000+ homes you can cruise for days looking at them. Every other car on the road is a new Mercedes or something extremely expensive. I see Ferraris and Teslas every day.

I'm GLAD those people have all that money. None of them took it from me. But they all spend it and provide me the opportunity to have a job and get some of that money. If they weren't here, I'd be broke.

No, I don't like people going to Burning Man as spectators. I don't like people that go just because of the DJ stars at Distrikt or on Robot Heart because they are spectators too.

Remember, in BRC, the "blue collar" builders of things, artists, performers, and lunatics who aren't afraid of compressed gasses ARE the "cool" people. Not the spectators in the expensive PnP camps, even if they are the cool ones in the default world. There's still something about it that you can't buy.

[Hoolie]

basically that whole area didn't have a single 'theme camp', unless the theme was 'stay the fuck out'

It would be funny if a big group of "outsiders" dressed up as medieval knights and attempted to "storm the castles."

Or perhaps a mutant vehicle type confrontation:

[pink]

What I don't understand is how these PnP camps get EA passes & placement if they contribute nothing to the event.

On another note, one of my campmates told us he had invited a woman to dinner. Apparently she was doing an art installation & a PnP camp had offered her a discount to her & her crew; $250 each for accommodations, food, water, etc. she got to the area and there was nothing there but other people that had each paid $1000 for a PnP camp spot. She had been a BRC vagrant for three days. Since she didn't show up for dinner, I don't know if she was just telling a story to explain mooching, or if there were stranded people who got scammed. Another reason why I show up with everything I need to survive for 2 weeks, even if none of my campmates do. Wouldn't be as comfy or fun, but I wouldn't starve & I'd have enough water.

[[jim]]

It would be funny if a big group of "outsiders" dressed up as medieval knights and attempted to "storm the castles."

the burly dudes we saw (probably armed) would probably beat a lot of funny into you.

try it next year... film it for an art project. maybe the org will fund it via honorarium?

I'll tune in!

[Sandstorm]

DrYes: I've highlighted what I found to be the most interesting points of your eloquent post.

When I hear Burners complain about millionaires/billionaires, I roll my eyes. It's the well-off complaining about the rich...

...Many of you know Green Tortoise camp I assume. They've been coming to Burning Man for years. They charge you a fee, you can get your tickets through them, they transport you there and back, they feed you, and they provide shade. Gotta provide your own tent. I feel like people don't object to them because they don't target rich people and aren't particularly luxurious, but that's just classism.

...The playa isn't some kind of utopia, even if we feel like it should be for a week...

...I do think that the org should force plug n' play camps (however they choose to define them) to register, and that they require the camps be theme camps providing something back to the community though...

...but I wouldn't have known who is in a plug n' play camp when they're out and about so no way to tell...

BTW, I'm the guy who wrote the earlier post about the LA Style couple. I'm more than willing to make room for any burner to have moments of discomfort on the playa. My point about that couple was the woman was sneering down her nose at a group of your standard model burners. While I can roll with most of what you wrote in your post I can't overlook some Plug and Play-ers being elitist sh*ts because they have to share the top of an art car with a group of people who were behaving in the most chill and subdued way a bunch of burners can act on top of a random stationary art car at night. To me that chick's version of normal seemed to involve/revolve around velvet ropes and bottle service and for me that's BS both on the playa and in the default world.

As for Green Tortoise, my suspicion about their BM clientele is that they are made up of a combination of the following: (1) super chill newbies who find it less taxing to do GT than to amass the gear one needs for their first burn; (2) See # 1 and add the fact that the people in question live outside of the US; (3) veterans who have found that they can actually make the burn this year but who can only do so if they can bypass having to wrangle and/or transport a good sized pile of playa infrastructure. Generally speaking, GT has a good and longstanding reputation with progressive types and thus I have to challenge your assertion that there is some kind of classism at work when burners give GT a free pass that they wouldn't give to a PnP camp. Over the years GT has earned the respect of a lot of people and that respect gets extended to GT running a couple of buses to BM.

On a different note, back in '12 I camped with the French Quarter and the actor Tim Curry was a member of our village. He was beyond lovely and sincere and did not exude an ounce of indifference to the event or the village. Via my interactions with Tim Curry I have proof that a person of great renown can be part of a normal/non-PnP camp and behave in the same manner of anyone else at BM. I'm happy to interact with anyone at BM as long as they treat me with respect. As long as that happens I could care less how much or little money they have back in the default world.

[soona]

Interesting discussion and I see the potential - if not present - problem. That said, I wasn't aware of them this year - we camped at 6:45 and J and it was all small and mid-sized camps of friends.

I have two questions:

1. Has anyone seen ads for these camps? How do they attract their patrons? Are there websites? Maybe someone should look for them and share how they present themselves, and who they are targeting.

2. How do they save their space, do they have EA passes? Even if they do, how can they save so much space if it's within "open camping," which I assume it is. They're not placed camps are they?

We came in after the rain Monday and drove around in the dark, looking for open camping around 7:45 and G, then looking farther out to L and K. We were frustrated with how many people had come in and staked out huge spaces for their friends that weren't there yet. I don't think they are the PnP camps, they weren't that big and weren't that far back. So maybe that's a whole 'nother discussion. Anyway, it was late and dark and nobody was around (or they were asleep) so there was nobody to ask about their space holding.

Eventually we went back towards 6:45 and there were lots of open spaces and cool people filled them in nicely over the next 24-36 hours, so it became a nice (and quiet) area.

It is my understanding that arrivals have a right to park anywhere in open camping, and while some space holding is reasonable (we want to hold for friends too), it was clear that in many areas one car had come "early" with ropes and cones to establish camp for 7, 8 or more cars. But nobody wants to be a dick and nobody wants to camp next to people they have pissed off by asserting their rights.

As I said, this is a much broader issue than the PnP camps, but it does make me wonder how the PnPs can come in and save such massive space. Maybe they bring in most of their RVs and equipment right away to establish camps?

[theCryptofishist]

1. Has anyone seen ads for these camps? How do they attract their patrons? Are there websites? Maybe someone should look for them and share how they present themselves, and who they are targeting.

I suspect that at that level, it's word of mouth or their people research it. I think we did have an ad and website that we found maybe three years back. I forget the particulars.

[DrYes]

BTW, I'm the guy who wrote the earlier post about the LA Style couple. I'm more than willing to make room for any burner to have moments of discomfort on the playa. My point about that couple was the woman was sneering down her nose at a group of your standard model burners. While I can roll with most of what you wrote in your post I can't overlook some Plug and Play-ers being elitist sh*ts because they have to share the top of an art car with a group of people who were behaving in the most chill and subdued way a bunch of burners can act on top of a random stationary art car at night. To me that chick's version of normal seemed to involve/revolve around velvet ropes and bottle service and for me that's BS both on the playa and in the default world.

My view is that I can't control or even know what other people think, and that it makes no difference to me if she's sneering down her nose at me. I'm having a great time, and I'm awesome. Hope she feels similarly good about herself, though probably not.

As for Green Tortoise, my suspicion about their BM clientele is that they are made up of a combination of the following: (1) super chill newbies who find it less taxing to do GT than to amass the gear one needs for their first burn; (2) See # 1 and add the fact that the people in question live outside of the US; (3) veterans who have found that they can actually make the burn this year but who can only do so if they can bypass having to wrangle and/or transport a good sized pile of playa infrastructure. Generally speaking, GT has a good and longstanding reputation with progressive types and thus I have to challenge your assertion that there is some kind of classism at work when burners give GT a free pass that they wouldn't give to a PnP camp. Over the years GT has earned the respect of a lot of people and that respect gets extended to GT running a couple of buses to BM.

Well, my point in bringing up GT as well as the example of the 81 year old lady we helped camp with us was that those cases both involve people not doing a lot of the work other people at BM do to get there, and that since nobody goes to BM on their own (we all buy a ton of things to take up there, for instance) the fact that PnP campers are doing less and that they're paying a camp in order to do less shouldn't be an issue - that's been an accepted practice at BM for many years.

The issue is whether the camp and its participants are just spectators or not, I think, not how much or how little the participants do to get themselves there and survive there. Radical self-reliance is only important insofar as it keeps your neighbor from needing your water because he didn't bring enough. Insisting on it having value in and of itself out there is just turning the principles into religion, where rules exist for their own sake rather than to accomplish an external goal (like not bothering your neighbors with your unpreparedness).

On a different note, back in '12 I camped with the French Quarter and the actor Tim Curry was a member of our village. He was beyond lovely and sincere and did not exude an ounce of indifference to the event or the village. Via my interactions with Tim Curry I have proof that a person of great renown can be part of a normal/non-PnP camp and behave in the same manner of anyone else at BM. I'm happy to interact with anyone at BM as long as they treat me with respect. As long as that happens I could care less how much or little money they have back in the default world.

I get what you're saying, but do all Burners have to act in the same manner? Don't we celebrate diversity? You seem to be veering almost into thought police, wanting to make sure only people with the correct attitude attend, and only folks who behave in ways that would be considered 'normal' there. Radical inclusion's point, I believe, is to create as diverse a Burning Man as possible. Part of me wants to nod my head and agree with you because I mean, I can't say I'm thrilled with the idea of a lot of folks with velvet rope-and-bottle service attitudes attending, but really, who am I to judge? Are we going to make people pass a test for conformity before they're granted a ticket? I like EDM, I like dancing, and I like big sound camps. I'm quite sure that attitude is viewed as inimical to the 'real' Burning Man by some people who have been going since the early days, and those same people would point to those big sound camps as part of "what's wrong" with Burning Man today. I disagree, of course, but they're welcome to feel that way, even if I think their judging is weak sauce and not coherent with how I view Burning Man.

[Eric]

http://www.brcweekly.com/BRCWeekly2014_int.pdf

Interesting how you chose this article (which is labeled "farce") and not Adrian's editorial (page 2 on the below link).

http://brcweekly.com/BRCWeekly2014_ext.pdf

[DrYes]

But - I'm a little bit closer to agreeing with you than not. Truth be told, if I was to win the lottery tomorrow, I'd do up a pretty damn luxurious camp myself. However, I'd also put money into interactive "burny" things.

Yep, same. I've actually stayed in a (very standard) RV every year until now, but am tired of spending the money on it, so went the tent route this year. I was thrilled to find that I was very comfortable tenting it, especially Monday morning when nary a drop entered the tent, but if money were no object, I would absolutely set up a highly luxurious camp for myself and my friends that would include a giant well-equipped RV. Roughing it is not why I'm out there. It's just something to deal with. But like you say, I'd want to create something interactive. Something to draw people to my camp, because meeting people is why I go to Burning Man.

I'm GLAD those people have all that money. None of them took it from me. But they all spend it and provide me the opportunity to have a job and get some of that money. If they weren't here, I'd be broke.

Some of them also fund things out there (art cars, big art installations, sound camps, the black rock bijou, etc) that are really pretty cool and probably wouldn't happen without that funding. Many of them don't, but I'd bet that the ones that didn't get into the BM spirit won't be back - I think the good news is except inside a PnP camp, BM is kind of a shitty place to party if you're the velvet-rope-and-bottle-service kind of person, 'cause damn it, there's no VIP section. There's riff-raff everywhere, and we as a group are pretty damn riff-raffy! And it's so -dirty-. Don't the janitors ever clean all that dust up?

Remember, in BRC, the "blue collar" builders of things, artists, performers, and lunatics who aren't afraid of compressed gasses ARE the "cool" people. Not the spectators in the expensive PnP camps, even if they are the cool ones in the default world. There's still something about it that you can't buy.

True, true, though I think it's even better just not to care and assume that you're a cool person all the time and not worry whether other people agree or not.

[nixiebunny]

I don't see a reason to get mad about these camps. They exist because there's a market for them. If you don't like them, then visit the parts of the city that you like.

I took a few enjoyable bike trips through the lovely suburbs in the 3-6:00 and G-J area. The folks there were very down-to-earth. Had some great conversations with people in tiny camps.

The fortresses of RVs represented the gated communities that I ignore in my home town.

[skippy3k]

It seems the discussion has drifted a bit from PnP camps to people with money and nice RV's. I see a HUGE difference between the two. I have absolutely no problem with an expensive RV. What the fuck, are we supposed to expect people to run the smelliest, oil dripping POS RV possible in order to "qualify" for being a true burner? No, I think the "expensive RV or tent" discussion is elsewhere and has been rehashed a thousand times.

To me, this is about people who make a profit setting up a camp for someone. Period. Case in point; this year we took a friend of ours for the third year. She paid us money for food and gas and supplies. She flew in, we picked her up and hit the playa. I set all her shit up. She lounged and drank and had fun. At the end, I tore her shit down and drove her back. By some people's definition of PnP, I just ran a PnP camp. But here's the difference; I didn't make a profit. (Yeah, I might have been an idiot for busting my ass for her, but that's another discussion.)

I have NO problem with a company or millionaire setting up a huge camp and inviting a bunch of people to take advantage of his/her generosity. Is it a "true burn" for them? Maybe, maybe not. But if said company or millionaire did so to expect a profit, then yes, then by my definition, that would be PnP and I have a problem with it. There is something about making a dime off of someone else that creates a sterile relationship and, to me, loses the true purpose of the event. So take my example above with my friend; if I made even a $100 profit for my troubles, I would consider myself PnP. It has nothing to do with the amount of money spent. Whether they made $10 or $10,000, it's PnP. Technically it should be called PnPfP. Plug and Play for Profit.

So yes, we spend a shit ton of money to get there. Yes, we ALL make financial transactions prior to the event and a lot of people made a lot of money off of us to get there. But that's not the point. Because it should (and does) end the moment we hit the playa. At that point, the purpose for us is to give and enjoy, not provide a continuing service in order to make a profit.

[groovejedi]

Then you should certainly have a problem with the profit the BMorg is making, yes?

[Royal Turkey]

(And I've never liked the term "virgin" because it legitimizes and extends the use of a word that doesn't mean much, not really, in my view. "Birgin" doesn't really please me either, although I will use it. "Newbie" is alright. There's also "greenhorn", "neophyte", and I'm sure Roget could give us more, which could then be adopted and adapted as we see fit. *sigh*)

Personally, I like the term "freshman" for Virgins. It simply means "fresh" or "new" (wo)man", also implies one burn is not enough to fully understand the experience.
Your 2nd year would make you a "Sophomore", or "wise fool", likely to be over-confident that your one experience has taught you everything, while a Junior or Senior year Burner would have more experience to speak legitimately on trends they witness; too many PnP camps, weather has been milder, etc.

[unjonharley]

Guess I am some what of a plug n play.. When I started to set the monkey hut. A team of young (to me) people come to my camp.. They laid out ad set up the monkey hut per my directions in 15 minutes . Thanks gang

[skippy3k]

Then you should certainly have a problem with the profit the BMorg is making, yes?

Did they not transition to a non-profit organization earlier this year?

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/03/news ... anization/

[pink]

It's not the wealth these camps represent, it's that they add nothing to the city. A camp doesn't have to be a theme camp or have a bar, etc to add to the city; all that's needed is an open area, and or attitude. Your camp could be a tent under a tarp attached to your car. But if I can wave to you and say fuck yer day to you as I'm Walking down the street, and you wave back, we've just interacted, and both our smiles are a bit bigger. I passed a camp last year, nice RV with a front porch type shade built onto it, all lit up. Guy didn't get out much so he sat on his porch and watched the street, and had an extra chair or two for you if you cared to sit a spell.

Famous People could learn too, that under dust & a pair of goggles, no one is gonna recognize you...enjoy a bit of anonymity for a change. Other FPs have been doing it for years.

[Captain Goddammit]

Did they not transition to a non-profit organization earlier this year?

Does that lead you to believe the Big Six aren't going to make money from Burning Man anymore? They've got a terrific thing going and they aren't stupid.

[DrYes]

I have NO problem with a company or millionaire setting up a huge camp and inviting a bunch of people to take advantage of his/her generosity. Is it a "true burn" for them? Maybe, maybe not. But if said company or millionaire did so to expect a profit, then yes, then by my definition, that would be PnP and I have a problem with it.

Both the community and the org don't appear to have a problem with Green Tortoise, the original PnP camp, operating for profit. Why the outrage now, only when the PnP camps have started to cater to the rich, is it a perceived issue?

[Eric]

Then you should certainly have a problem with the profit the BMorg is making, yes?

Did they not transition to a non-profit organization earlier this year?

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/03/news ... anization/

If my understanding is right, Burning Man (the event) is still a for-profit company. The difference is that it's no longer owned by The Six (or the LLC), it's now owned by the Non-Profit.

From the above link:

On December 27, 2013, the Burning Man Project Board of Directors voted to make Black Rock City LLC a subsidiary and is now the sole shareholder of the LLC, which will continue to manage the event in the desert.

This means there will be more transparency (who knows how much), but people will still get paid (profit) from Burning Man. Which, personally, I could give a flying fuck about - it's a lot of work dealing with the government, and I'd rather they did it than I.

[Hoolie]

the burly dudes we saw (probably armed) would probably beat a lot of funny into you.

They are no match for Lord Humungus and his Dogs of War.

[dustyhobo]

I can help answer your question partly from what I know and saw out there. This was my 4th Burn, and the second time i've camped on the 3 o'clock side. I did venture over to the 9 & J area multiple times to visit friends and I kinda figured out how they are doing it and getting all that space.
Sooooo, a certain well-known Burning Man group and company from LA that now has their own festivals, what they did is apply for placement as a small theme camp, using volunteers obviously(on the opposite street corner to where they set up their big mega-structure PnP camp that catered for the wealthy). They bought these volunteers tickets, ensured that most of them had early-entry and thus could drive the big rigs and help set up the PnP camp which they used to turn a very handsome profit off the BM experience.
(Sorry my head is still loopy from the week so excuse my writing if it doesn't make much sense.)
So this tiny little theme camp with placement(and early arrival) gets to set up on a corner somewhere near 9&J, and while that theme camp is setting up they can also rope off a nice big section across the street in "open camping" that they can then use to build their PnP experience. In this case it wasn't quite RV setups that they were selling, but luxurious rooms with canvas walls and A/C units. I walked into this "Hotel" style camp and the vibe was horrible. Everyone looked at me like I had walked into the area stroking a giant erection or something. They also had a nice artcar outside, and what appeared to be a nice sound-system setup in the middle of their camp that I never heard play any music.

So yea, basically it appears to me that the big luxurious snobby setups are created by certain "theme camps" or burner groups that apply for placement as a smaller(respectable Burner) camp, and then they bring in huge rigs and RV's and build giant structures and wall themselves off in Open Camping right around where they got their placement. So it's basically using their regular "theme camp" as a shield to build their PnP experiences.

It might also be interesting to note that some of the companies that are doing this appear to be established burner camps and event production companies in the default world that have a great reputation for throwing good parties and are known for their "burning man vibe"

I have two questions:

1. Has anyone seen ads for these camps? How do they attract their patrons? Are there websites? Maybe someone should look for them and share how they present themselves, and who they are targeting.

2. How do they save their space, do they have EA passes? Even if they do, how can they save so much space if it's within "open camping," which I assume it is. They're not placed camps are they?

We came in after the rain Monday and drove around in the dark, looking for open camping around 7:45 and G, then looking farther out to L and K. We were frustrated with how many people had come in and staked out huge spaces for their friends that weren't there yet. I don't think they are the PnP camps, they weren't that big and weren't that far back. So maybe that's a whole 'nother discussion. Anyway, it was late and dark and nobody was around (or they were asleep) so there was nobody to ask about their space holding.

Eventually we went back towards 6:45 and there were lots of open spaces and cool people filled them in nicely over the next 24-36 hours, so it became a nice (and quiet) area.

It is my understanding that arrivals have a right to park anywhere in open camping, and while some space holding is reasonable (we want to hold for friends too), it was clear that in many areas one car had come "early" with ropes and cones to establish camp for 7, 8 or more cars. But nobody wants to be a dick and nobody wants to camp next to people they have pissed off by asserting their rights.

As I said, this is a much broader issue than the PnP camps, but it does make me wonder how the PnPs can come in and save such massive space. Maybe they bring in most of their RVs and equipment right away to establish camps?

[some seeing eye]

Dustyhobo, incorrect on placement, the ones I am thinking of and which are clearly visible in the photograph are placed by BMORG on theme camp realestate. Given their nature, the suburbs are a good choice. There was a discussion on ePlaya of at least one of the PnP camps being organized by a hotel chain. Where ads on the Internet for BM PnP camps are found, the BMORG sometimes gets them taken down.

So glad to hear evidence of the organizers over conjecture.

[skippy3k]

DrYes - "Outrage" is a little overstated I believe. I was merely trying to define exactly what determines a PnP camp, especially because it seemed to be drifting off to wealth in general. One can't have a healthy discourse if everyone is talking about something different. Yes, I don't like PnP, but I hardly think that constitutes as "outrage". I didn't like the music my neighbors played across the street, but I also wasn't outraged about it.

Captain - So the BMorg is making a profit. Fine. Then I guess we are all fucked and this discussion is sort of moot, isn't it?

[maladroit]

The kind of people who use plug-n-play camps have more reason to attend Burning Man than all of you who already "get it."

How much will each year on the playa change your outlook on life? A fraction of a percent?

For these PNP'ers, a week at Burning Man could turn their world upside down.

Not all of them will be affected, but some will climb out of their cocoon.

[Miles]

Here's one of the camps: http://www.caravancicle.com/about-camp

Seems like they're somehow linked with Do Lab (not surprised) and the Lost Lounge.

[bm_cricket]

Here's one of the camps: http://www.caravancicle.com/about-camp

Seems like they're somehow linked with Do Lab (not surprised) and the Lost Lounge.

Wow. Good thing those people are so self reliant. I bet that they work REALLY hard for all that money too.

And yes.. Burning Man is expensive. And yes, Burning Man is a vacation. And yes, this whole conversation is the 2% complaining about the 1%... But I'm not complaining that they are rich, I'm complaining that they are in camps that don't seem to provide anything to the community, just the rich people in the camp.

[Miles]

I'm not complaining that they are rich, I'm complaining that they are in camps that don't seem to provide anything to the community, just the rich people in the camp.

This is the crux of the issue for me also. I'd even go a bit further and say that: not only are they not providing to the greater community, they're actually hurting it by creating exclusivity and velvet ropes. Also, they're leaching artists and other attendees by using the art at large as a product (entertainment) to sell to their guests.

[andy]

I think for many people the issue is jealousy, but for me it's really just non-participation. (of course to be fair, you can't say that just because someone pays to be pampered on the playa they are not also giving in some other way.) Of course our camp went out onto the streets to invite people to our bar to give them alcohol, that's a far cry from having a private bar. But I think some folks are only getting half the BM experience - the "visual taking" as opposed to the "physical giving". My favorite moments were watching people smile and photograph the art piece I spent 5 months on. I did just fine in the yurt I built myself, with a bed, and A/C, and a shower, and cooking myself really nice meals. When I overnighted in Reno on the way home, I spent $100 for a nice restaurant meal. I don't need to export that experience to the playa, there are plenty of great restaurants for the other 51 weeks.

[tattoogoddess]

Here's one of the camps: http://www.caravancicle.com/about-camp

Seems like they're somehow linked with Do Lab (not surprised) and the Lost Lounge.

A mother fuckin health waver and you need to list all your health issues and medications? Wtf!!!


https://adobeformscentral.com/?f=36uIEm ... JmS5%2ARnw

And this...
None of these on the questioner are about giving anything back. All things about ones self. nothing about giving back to the community at all!!
https://adobeformscentral.com/?f=NEMn3QVg29MmrPs1dgvZhQ