to rule, or not to rule

[ygmir]

so, is being part of this event, seeing it from the side of a participant, volnuteer, and staff, I am seeing a possible, schism, which would lead to two events: (rules do not supersede the law of the land in this exercise, or basic personal/physical safety/space edicts)

event 1: no rules.

cellphones are as welcome as a shooting range, perhaps even a 10 mph speed limit, no restrictions on driving, camp where you want, play music any way you like, bring million dollar rigs, or tents, have servants on segways, generators, fires, trash pickup, and on and on. Thus creating a "do what you can,, as much as you can, with what you have or what you can make, life is not fair, and some have more stuff than others".

event 2: rules.
Rules stipulating the 10 principles, but to include no super RV's, no segways, no servants, certain music in certain sections, none in some, gifting only, very limited non human powered vehicles, nothing moopy, limits on any or all specific luxuries, deemed "doing it wrong". Thus creating a spartan, "all are equal" event atmosphere.


these are crude ideas, but, it seems to me they are close descriptions of the conflicts within BRC.

so it's that, or STFU, STFD, DTFK-A, and have what fun you can, with what you have, quit judging, quit telling others how to "Burn" and mind your own business, being responsible for your own happiness........and try reaching out, and giving a shit, benefit of the doubt, and open you minds and hearts that others happiness might makes some sense.

[Lonesomebri]

I suppose if I was enforcing the rules, telling others to STFU would be cool.

[kiboy]

Not everyone is comfortable with much change and not all change is necessarily beneficial. I've not been here long but I sure do see a lot of discussion on this issue, (I did bit of lurking before joining). I'm wondering at some point of there is just going to be a divorce with each going their separate ways. And if such a thing were possible I'd be going with the rules guys but wishing everyone well.

[theCryptofishist]

Didn't we already have this split with Forth of Juplaya?

[Nipple]

I feel a little of this happens with the regional burns. Each have their little bit of lawlessness that doesn't fully stack up to the lumbering beast the big burn has become.

I'm a little turned off by all the big burns traditions becoming dogma, but at the same time, I'm turned off by the unruled not taking their fellows into consideration by default.

[Eric]

To be realistic about the question: the BLM would never allow an event of ~70,000 people to occur on public to exist without rules, and most of the rules exist because the BLM & the local governments require them. People wanting a "no rules" option basically have no choice but to leave the Big Burn & start their own (even Juplaya is being noticed by the BLM, regardless of the lack of any official organizers).

I am, however, quite opposed to the options you list under "rules". Fuck people deciding what people can camp in, or how they can run their camps. Personally I think the event is dealing with it's growth pretty well, and it's doubled in size since I started going. Is it perfect? Of course not, nothing is. It's the right level of enough rules for it to function, without so many that they ruin my fun.

Also, I'm nudging this over to Politics & Philosophy, since it's a better fit.

[some seeing eye]

Some rules are proactive and some reactive. I think the proactive rules are cultural and around growth/ participant mix management and the reactive rules are for managing liability. Although the event has LEO, rangers, ESD, etc. the participants do do the heavy lifting minimizing bad things happening. Ultimately something bad will happen, which following rules may or may not prevent, and the event will be sued out of existence.

[Captain Goddammit]

I think it's just gotten to that point where the original cool is gone.

[theCryptofishist]

See, I'm not sure that we've past that point 3 or 4 times already. It's sort of like the Richter Scale... Or maybe I'm confusing it with the population.

[Eric]

I think it's just gotten to that point where the original cool is gone.

Quite honestly I would be more shocked if any 26 (27?) year old event still had some of it's "original cool". It's interesting enough, and fun enough, to keep me wanting to go and that's fine with me.

[kiboy]

I think it's just gotten to that point where the original cool is gone.

Well I wasn't around for the original cool but I still recognize it from 2000... but I'm getting old and a little more stoggy and now the size intimidates me somewhat. (I really want to go solo this next time in a little monkey hut) At 40 grand it seemed to have everything that it does at 70 grand in terms of overall attraction for me. Bigger is not better for me at this point.

I'm wondering anyway if it wouldn't be better for the stated ideals of Burning Man to spread into the general population if there weren't more and smaller ones. Especially now with the difficulties of scoring tickets. Of course that would take more organizers with the energy for all that. I certainly don't have that and frankly I'm in awe of the whole thing at just about any size and those who made it happen. I'm just a little farm boy from Michigan back in the 50s.

I still want to go but I do wish it were about 40 grand smaller and I also think it would not be what it is and has been had the rules been different or applied with a different spirit. So for me those rules are important. But I understand that some or most may not think that now and majority has always ruled in such things. I do know that everything ends somewhere and so it will with BM. I'm grateful I got to see it in my lifetime. I guess I'm kind of rambling now so I'll shut and listen for awhile. I find this subject interesting.

[ygmir]

I see the choices as different "flavors"........

there are those who yearn for the "old days", most all tents, not much infrastructure, mostly hand made, small art,
and those who like the evolution as it is, no restriction (well, very little) as to what happens, but along with that, accepting the gentrification of the event.

I see both as fun, but at some point need to separate.
I'm starting to really enjoy some of the regionals, and think at least a few could "make the jump" to the just a little bigger stage, where the old days of the Burn are hinted at.

and, as such, regionals could tweak themselves to reflect a certain set of wants and needs.

and, yeah, management is challenged with a lot of the ticket/traffic/oversight stuff ...but I don't see it as "mean spirited" or even "dumb"........it's humans, trying to manage and balance huge numbers of people, getting pulled from all directions to please not only the participants, but the staff, and the numerous government agencies (who control the ability to have the event). There is no "spread sheet" for doing this, on this scale, in this place. The logistics, and especially in such a remote, sensitive location, can be daunting.

[Simon of the Playa]

what used to be for outliers and the fringe, the adventurous and the seekers of esoterica is now for a growing collection of Mainstream Attendees.

that is the problem AND the solution.





as i have always said, the outside world may try to change us, but it is the outside world who is finally coming around to our way of thinking and our model of community.


don't be afraid......we ARE entering a new phase.....The Man is All Grown Up, and is spreading his wings, and flying around the world at the speed of Broadband.

it is now that the elders are more important than ever, to remind the Newbs of our traditions, and why they are there.

Like Judaism, we will always argue about the constant evolution of our "Faith" and we may have schisms in how we practice, but in the end, we are all burners, and our numbers are growing.

it is both terrifying and exciting to see this little project in the desert Bloom into a Global Flower.

[VultureChow]

I obviously can't speak to the good (or bad) old days, but I think the organization has done more than a little to direct the growth of the event. DGS, funneling tickets directly to interactive camps and installations is a HUGE deal. It's the equivalent of rent control or COAH rules in a gentrifying city. The low income ticket program is too, but has a smaller impact. It's the organization acknowledging that certain participants make Burning Man the commodity it is, and left to the free market we'd probably be just a rave in the desert.

[Joeln]

I can't speak to the old days, but I like this comment;

it is now that the elders are more important than ever, to remind the Newbs of our traditions, and why they are there.

Like Judaism, we will always argue about the constant evolution of our "Faith" and we may have schisms in how we practice, but in the end, we are all burners, and our numbers are growing.

it is both terrifying and exciting to see this little project in the desert Bloom into a Global Flower.

[trilobyte]

Most of the "rules" that are currently in place (bans on firearms, fireworks, restrictions/rules for burn barrels, etc) aren't just because someone got a bug up their ass to impose some rules, but because it was necessary for the continued existence of the event. If we want the closure order and permits, we have to do those things.

...have what fun you can, with what you have, quit judging, quit telling others how to "Burn" and mind your own business, being responsible for your own happiness........and try reaching out, and giving a shit, benefit of the doubt, and open you minds and hearts that others happiness might makes some sense.

A truly awesome sentiment, I wholeheartedly agree. I like that there are as many different ways to burn as there are burners. If everyone did it my way, that'd get boring fast.. and besides I'm probably doing it wrong anyways

[zorro sings]

Been going a long time now it seems.I can remember dogs at the event and the city of Reno trying to distance itself from it.Still in wonder at the results of such freely given time,money and energy.A world class event that keeps me coming back.

I have seen the population more than triple without,at least in my mind,many new rules.Yes ticketing and EA regulations are quite different but traditional considerations still seem intact.Of course each year someone,somewhere violates them in spectacular fashion.See Danceatronauts for this year.Various sound camps for moop last year but things get accomplished and progress is made without any more(hard to enforce anyway) new rules.The Community and its values,encouraged,promoted and sometimes "enforced" properly,is still the dike that allows maximum freedom in BRC.

[DrYes]

No Super RVs? Is this a joke? "I'm sorry sir, but your RV has exceeded the socially accepted tolerance for giant polluting vehicles by 6 inches and will not be permitted. Those in 6 inch shorter RVs are morally superior to you and will be lined up at the gate pointing and laughing as you make your sorry way back to Reno."

[DrYes]

Some rules are proactive and some reactive. I think the proactive rules are cultural and around growth/ participant mix management and the reactive rules are for managing liability. Although the event has LEO, rangers, ESD, etc. the participants do do the heavy lifting minimizing bad things happening. Ultimately something bad will happen, which following rules may or may not prevent, and the event will be sued out of existence.

My (sad) prediction is that one of the large multi-story structures won't be engineered well-enough one year and will collapse with a lot of people on it, injuring/killing many. The ramifications of that happening would be fairly large I suspect.

[ygmir]

No Super RVs? Is this a joke? "I'm sorry sir, but your RV has exceeded the socially accepted tolerance for giant polluting vehicles by 6 inches and will not be permitted. Those in 6 inch shorter RVs are morally superior to you and will be lined up at the gate pointing and laughing as you make your sorry way back to Reno."

though not the intent of my statement, this would make wonderful "theater".
How fun would it be to make a side lot on gate road, at Gate, with a dozen "consenting" RV's, and people out with tape measures, telling some to leave and arguing with others....maybe one person on the ground taking their bumpers off.........

[theCryptofishist]

Some rules are proactive and some reactive. I think the proactive rules are cultural and around growth/ participant mix management and the reactive rules are for managing liability. Although the event has LEO, rangers, ESD, etc. the participants do do the heavy lifting minimizing bad things happening. Ultimately something bad will happen, which following rules may or may not prevent, and the event will be sued out of existence.

My (sad) prediction is that one of the large multi-story structures won't be engineered well-enough one year and will collapse with a lot of people on it, injuring/killing many. The ramifications of that happening would be fairly large I suspect.

Yes. I'm expecting that, too.

[DrYes]

No Super RVs? Is this a joke? "I'm sorry sir, but your RV has exceeded the socially accepted tolerance for giant polluting vehicles by 6 inches and will not be permitted. Those in 6 inch shorter RVs are morally superior to you and will be lined up at the gate pointing and laughing as you make your sorry way back to Reno."

though not the intent of my statement, this would make wonderful "theater".
How fun would it be to make a side lot on gate road, at Gate, with a dozen "consenting" RV's, and people out with tape measures, telling some to leave and arguing with others....maybe one person on the ground taking their bumpers off.........

I lol'd. That'd be hilarious.

[Lonesomebri]

I like that there are as many different ways to burn as there are burners. If everyone did it my way, that'd get boring fast.. and besides I'm probably doing it wrong anyways

As a random Burner, observing the crowd before the Man Burn, I noticed a couple on trikes back in the crowd. The gentleman was explaining to perimeter that, no, they would not be moving their trikes further back as requested. The bikes were less of a hazard than any mutant vehicle and were not in anyone's way. Fight the Power !!!! I was inspired and uplifted by this act. Finally the perimeter person moved on to stop the clowns trying to ride their bikes all the way up to the demarcation line, people who were a danger to others and themselves. I always park my chariot along side similar sized vehicles at the burn, then walk 10 feet away until it gets packed in, that way no one asks me to move it behind the larger vehicles. I want the mutant vehicles to "SIT DOWN !!!" I helped a guy set up his surf board home-made Absinthe bar on a bike near my rig, and then had to move it 10 feet back when requested, thereby saving all of our lives and preserving the enjoyment of the Burn for all. Sure, it would probably be more chillaxing to sit on the scissor lift towering over all of us, or blast the tunes standing on top of a solid 10 foot tall wall on wheels, without having to deal with the prols shouts of "sit down" or requests to move my smaller vehicle, but I burn my way.

In this world, the gap between rules and no rules is all of life.

[AntiM]

I have to wonder what rules for regionals will arise out of this year's tragedy at Element 11.

[theCryptofishist]

It's hard for me to imagine what they could be. Unless it's something like "Don't have big fire." From what I heard, there really wasn't much to be done--not even before hand. Of course, I could be wrong...

[Nipple]

I worry about that a bit. It's been hard enough for us to get big fire OK'd by our local jurisdictions for the Oregon regional.

Even then, we've lost our Temple burn 2 years in a row. It's had to be manually taken apart and thrown into our effigy burn...

[Elderberry]

That was well said.

what used to be for outliers and the fringe, the adventurous and the seekers of esoterica is now for a growing collection of Mainstream Attendees.

that is the problem AND the solution.





as i have always said, the outside world may try to change us, but it is the outside world who is finally coming around to our way of thinking and our model of community.


don't be afraid......we ARE entering a new phase.....The Man is All Grown Up, and is spreading his wings, and flying around the world at the speed of Broadband.

it is now that the elders are more important than ever, to remind the Newbs of our traditions, and why they are there.

Like Judaism, we will always argue about the constant evolution of our "Faith" and we may have schisms in how we practice, but in the end, we are all burners, and our numbers are growing.

it is both terrifying and exciting to see this little project in the desert Bloom into a Global Flower.

[robrob]

I feel a little of this happens with the regional burns. Each have their little bit of lawlessness that doesn't fully stack up to the lumbering beast the big burn has become.

I wouldnt say "lawlessness" as much as "police less". that's one of the most awesome things about a 1700 person burn. No fucking cops- at all- until they escort the fire marshall in for the effigy burn. But it's not chaos- the community takes care of itself pretty well. (who'da thunk it)

If you guys don't do regionals, you should!

(Just not ours, because it sells out in 2 minutes )

[kiboy]

I have to admit half of the trip for me is the harsh desert environment of the Man. Lush grass, cool lakes, streams etc. don't make it for me. I need that desert, dust and view.

[Nipple]

I have to admit half of the trip for me is the harsh desert environment of the Man. Lush grass, cool lakes, streams etc. don't make it for me. I need that desert, dust and view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvord_Desert What if the OR Regional were here?