Self-righteous, wealth-resenting burners running amok

[Ratty]

Before I was 25 I took some pretty crappy jobs to pay rent, raise kids, pay bills. If the P&P camps hire people I'm ok with that. As long as the employees know what they're getting into. I met a couple in August going back as employees this year. They knew and they loved the job and the money. It's better than, "Would you like fries with that".

[theCryptofishist]

I don't see what is so great about a festival in which I have to buy all-inclusive things in advance. It would be better if I could get to the festival and buy what I wanted a-la-carte when I decided I would like it. I don't really see any value in this particular restriction.

Just want to remind everyone that the value in the restriction comes from BLM regulations on the use of their land. Last time I looked (and it's been a few years) the only place where I could find vending on BLM was, I believe, in the Imperial Sand Dunes, and the vendors had to every five days, tow their rigs out and clean them. (They were food service...) Don't get me wrong, I do think that removing the event from buying and selling is a wonderful thing. I think it does create "immediacy", or whatever I want to call it, because Larry's prose causes allergic reactions in my bullshit detector. However, it does mean that we don't get to stop at a Thai Bokwurst stand for dinner. Probably a good thing, because then we'd be dealing with the moop issue that goes with Thai Bokwurst.

[kiboy]

Honestly, I think that the reality is that there has been a lot of vending at Burning Man for a very long time, but it has generally been very discrete, limited, or performed as pragmatically necessary. What it sounds like from all this outrage is that this discretion is slowly eroding, and the whole idea of no-vending or decommodification is sort of a joke or a sham.

One of the first negative things I remember thinking about BM is wtf is this selling coffee and shit about when they are saying that selling shit is a big philosophical no no? I ignored it of course so I could enjoy the experience and bought a coffee eventually by my third burn. But all the rest of this is just a continuation and expansion of what's been going on for a long time. Most people want coffee so on one is complaining much. If only 1% wanted it we'd be having this discussion about coffee instead of plug and play. The result of inconsistency of word and deed. There will be more.

[The Rod]

Jesus Christ. Sometimes I wonder what the deal with BBadger is... Why is this person so angry? Why is this person so intent on trying to make other people feel wrong and stupid?

But then I get on with my life.

BTW: P&P camps suck.

[unjonharley]

Jesus Christ."yes my son" Sometimes I wonder what the deal with BBadger is... Why is this person so angry? Why is this person so intent on trying to make other people feel wrong and stupid?

If the shoe fit.......

[Roberto Dobbisano]

you want righteous?




you got it, kid.

[theCryptofishist]

Most people want coffee so on one is complaining much.

People have been complaining about the coffee sales since I've been on this board. Chai Guy's very name was derived from his "Free Chai Revolution" protests against the cafe. Now, the "official" reasons it's there are, as far as I understand, is that Larry wants the Center Camp space as a place where newbies can begin to participate in participatory culture, and then the coffee funds that. So, hey that's thousands of dollars not covered by our ticket prices, at least. I don't know how I feel about the cafe. I haven't had coffee there in years, and I don't spend time in the circle for the most part. I'm not particularly fond of saying "what Larry wants, Larry gets," but I don't want to fight the cafe. I do know people who have worked there, for what that's worth.

[Fan C]

My concern is about the camp Mr. GotRocks is staying in. Does it contribute anything to the city? If it does, great. If it doesn't, and Placement is doing its job, the camp doesn't get placed next year and the operator gets no EAs and no guaranteed contiguous square footage. He can't deliver the promised "experience" to his clients, word gets around, and he has a hard sell the year after that.

Problem solved.

This is exactly it. If the Bmorg decides it wants to allocate limited space and tickets to these types of camps, then there it is. Shark jumped. Some camps didn't get placement, the Bmorg deliberate chose the turnkeys camps over others.

it is what it is.

[kiboy]

Most people want coffee so on one is complaining much.

People have been complaining about the coffee sales since I've been on this board. Chai Guy's very name was derived from his "Free Chai Revolution" protests against the cafe. Now, the "official" reasons it's there are, as far as I understand, is that Larry wants the Center Camp space as a place where newbies can begin to participate in participatory culture, and then the coffee funds that. So, hey that's thousands of dollars not covered by our ticket prices, at least. I don't know how I feel about the cafe. I haven't had coffee there in years, and I don't spend time in the circle for the most part. I'm not particularly fond of saying "what Larry wants, Larry gets," but I don't want to fight the cafe. I do know people who have worked there, for what that's worth.

Well anything can be justified with a little thought. Just as plug and play is "an attempt to spread the vibe to the rich". So I stand corrected but I've spent the last couple of weeks reading posts but didn't come across any coffee complaints. Do you really think Newbies won't get the idea without sales of coffee to bring them to a center camp where there is art, music and a general open space to meet and greet other burners? I'd much have preferred it when I was in my first year not to see lines of people with only the idea of making it to the counter to be served. That didn't encourage me to participate. In fact it was a turn off. I love the idea of a center meeting space however. I'm pretty sure from your other very thoughtful posts you don't really agree with him on that but maybe I'm wrong. But my point remains that that began, among other things I'm likely not aware of yet, a slippery slope toward plug and play and whatever is coming next. And it is coming imo. You just keep changing the place where you draw the line. It's how all change happens for the most part.

[Lonesomebri]

Blame my religious upbringing but I always enjoy messing with people more powerful than I am, far more than messing with those weaker. I guess that’s why I never amounted to Plug and Play guru level.

[kiboy]

I don't know what religion you're referring to but it seems that the religions I know of are all about kissing the ass of a mythological tooth fairy or the high priests. Once I decided to fuck back and fight for the little guy I became an atheist. That'll teach that big guy that doesn't exist lol.

[H.G.Crosby]

i got yer ice cream right here bubbeleh.

and it's kosher, too...

[Lonesomebri]

Blame my religious upbringing but I always enjoy messing with people more powerful than I am, far more than messing with those weaker. I guess that’s why I never amounted to Plug and Play guru level.

Postby kiboy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:38 pm

I don't know what religion you're referring to but it seems that the religions I know of are all about kissing the ass of a mythological tooth fairy or the high priests. Once I decided to fuck back and fight for the little guy I became an atheist. That'll teach that big guy that doesn't exist lol.

Well, exactly, there you have it. Once you take on god, these lame gurus and charlatans are laughable.

[unjonharley]

Well, exactly, there you have it. Once you take on god,

Isn't that a lot like fist fighting with the wind..

pss, there is no god.

[kiboy]

Yeah but you never get bruised knuckles.

[kiboy]

Blame my religious upbringing but I always enjoy messing with people more powerful than I am, far more than messing with those weaker. I guess that’s why I never amounted to Plug and Play guru level.

Postby kiboy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:38 pm

I don't know what religion you're referring to but it seems that the religions I know of are all about kissing the ass of a mythological tooth fairy or the high priests. Once I decided to fuck back and fight for the little guy I became an atheist. That'll teach that big guy that doesn't exist lol.

Well, exactly, there you have it. Once you take on god, these lame gurus and charlatans are laughable.

There's a lot more of them to take on of course. And then there is the issue of recognizing your own bull shit. It's a time consuming job. Fortunately I'm retired.

[theCryptofishist]

Do you really think Newbies won't get the idea without sales of coffee to bring them to a center camp where there is art, music and a general open space to meet and greet other burners?

I dunno. The newbies I know come through the board, and we give them an education. Like I said, this is Larry's take, and I don't even know if I'm expressing it well. If I'm saying anything, it's that I just don't have a clear, simple answer for the cafe--one side or another--and that I don't go there.

(Even apart from the fact that I don't go to event at all.)

Maybe it comes to "I don't need it, I'll ignore it."

[Lonesomebri]

... And then there is the issue of recognizing your own bull shit. It's a time consuming job. Fortunately I'm retired.

Yeah, but since I don't represent god or power or an ideal true burner or the Borg or the law, etc. my bull shit usually sticks to me and doesn't get on too many others.

And I have never bought a coffee at Center Camp, is what I told myself as I waited in line this year.

[Simon of the Playa]

thread drift.



can we get back to how i'm a self righteous wealth resenting burner who should shut the fuck up and never come back after 19 years because i have strong opinions on the nature of the event and the direction in which it is going.

[unjonharley]

Can we have an amen for brother simon?

[VultureChow]

I do like the assumption that someone who has a problem with $17,000 VIP Burning Man Experience being sold by a member of the Board must resent all wealth.

I'm a self-loathing capitalist.

[kiboy]

theCryptofishist
I don't know Larry but I'll take a wild guess and that be that his priorities have changed over time and success. Seems to happen with all real big successes. Maybe the temptations for power and riches get overwhelming. You know what they say about power corrupting absolutely. Do you ever wonder if you could handle being totally successful in a long shot and start by taking calculated risks and end up making the rules, and then not abandoning any guiding principles you might have held dear on the way? I do and I can't say I'd be true. Maybe it's fortunate I'll never find out. But it seems to me from my life experience that it's the little guy that upholds or attempts to uphold the vision. Maybe because of naivety, who knows. If an active majority of the regular burner like things the way they were in the past they are the ones who will have to make that happen because now that there is BIG bucks to be made, that blood in the water is going to draw a bunch of sharks. Isn't that how it works?

[Simon of the Playa]

Can we have an amen for brother simon?

i don't wanna step on Rev. Billy's toes though, that's his schtick...


how about a L'Chaim?...

[VultureChow]

I don't know Larry but I'll take a wild guess and that be that his priorities have changed over time and success. Seems to happen with all real big successes. Maybe the temptations for power and riches get overwhelming. You know what they say about power corrupting absolutely. Do you ever wonder if you could handle being totally successful in a long shot and start by taking calculated risks and end up making the rules, and then not abandoning any guiding principles you might have held dear on the way? I do and I can't say I'd be true. Maybe it's fortunate I'll never find out. But it seems to me from my life experience that it's the little guy that upholds or attempts to uphold the vision. Maybe because of naivety, who knows. If an active majority of the regular burner like things the way they were in the past they are the ones who will have to make that happen because now that there is BIG bucks to be made, that blood in the water is going to draw a bunch of sharks. Isn't that how it works?

Interesting question. I know plenty of self made multimillionaires who are good, decent people. But then again their principles weren't laid out in a ten point manifesto. Their principles were: work hard, provide for your family, keep your word, treat people well.

[kiboy]

I don't know Larry but I'll take a wild guess and that be that his priorities have changed over time and success. Seems to happen with all real big successes. Maybe the temptations for power and riches get overwhelming. You know what they say about power corrupting absolutely. Do you ever wonder if you could handle being totally successful in a long shot and start by taking calculated risks and end up making the rules, and then not abandoning any guiding principles you might have held dear on the way? I do and I can't say I'd be true. Maybe it's fortunate I'll never find out. But it seems to me from my life experience that it's the little guy that upholds or attempts to uphold the vision. Maybe because of naivety, who knows. If an active majority of the regular burner like things the way they were in the past they are the ones who will have to make that happen because now that there is BIG bucks to be made, that blood in the water is going to draw a bunch of sharks. Isn't that how it works?

Interesting question. I know plenty of self made multimillionaires who are good, decent people. But then again their principles weren't laid out in a ten point manifesto. Their principles were: work hard, provide for your family, keep your word, treat people well.

Really? Plenty? Lucky you, hope some of it rubs off. Depends of course on your subjective view on what makes one good and decent and not knowing them myself I really can't respond. I know one serious millionaire. (if you have less than few million you don't count) He's not a horrible guy and he's pretty honest in his business dealings as far as I can tell but he's got a huge fucking ego, needs to be right, and isn't above bad mouthing you when you're not there. That's my personal experience the rest I get from the media and word of mouth.

Anyway my point is that the average burner is going to win the day. If they are vocal about what doesn't work for them and put their money where their mouth is then that will influence things. If they just shut up and put up with what they don't like that will also influence things. That's why I don't agree with the OP. I think people should discuss what's on their minds when it concerns something they are passionate about. The longer this discussion goes on the more information I get to make my mind up on these questions. And I also don't agree that this is about the resentment of wealth for most of those posting opinions here. That's a nice way to discredit and dismiss some imo, worthwhile concerns for the future of Burning Man. The Man is one of the most awesome things that has ever happened to me. I hope I can keep saying that.

[Simon of the Playa]

The Man is one of the most awesome things that has ever happened to me. I hope I can keep saying that.

me too kiboy, me too...




i would also like to clearly state for the record that i have no problem with people of "means"

far from it...i have many friends who are "millionaires"

i may even have a family member or two who could say the same...

and as clearly posted in a previous thread, from sept, 1st..... it is not the money...it is what is done with it, and how, and why...

[unjonharley]

These threads on so called p&p are full of misinformation..

The plug and play misinformation. (is) The rich guy that bought into said package has done no wrong...

As for the flime flame man that set p&p up.. It looks like he got around a few loop holes.. Placement, group tickets, Early Arrivals. vehicle passes and what ever else he could get by...

If you make your decisions on the misinformation in this form, You will be as full of shit as the rest..

[kiboy]

These threads on so called p&p are full of misinformation..

The plug and play misinformation. (is) The rich guy that bought into said package has done no wrong...

As for the flime flame man that set p&p up.. It looks like he got around a few loop holes.. Placement, group tickets, Early Arrivals. vehicle passes and what ever else he could get by...

If you make your decisions on the misinformation in this form, You will be as full of shit as the rest..

I'm curious as to how you know it is misinformation? Just saying that evidence worthy of conviction in a court of law hasn't been presented does not mean that it is misinformation. My ears are open? Present your evidence.

[VultureChow]

The rich guy that bought into said package has done no wrong...

I've thought about this a lot. I am generally inclined to agree with you. There is nothing wrong about using your wealth to have a luxurious burn. And perhaps they're misguided virgins who look at this as just a grand adventure travel luxury trip. And that makes it our duty to teach them. To teach them to give more than they take.

But...

Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

It doesn't take much to learn about Burning Man. You might not learn the finer points of the community, but you can learn enough to not commit any major faux pas. It's not unlike going to a foreign country and learning a few phrases and customs so you don't offend people.

And the website for the camp in question, just reeked of commercialization and VIP access. Even if it did NOTHING to violate the explicit rules of Burning Man, it did everything it could to violate the spirit and customs. Even a cursory understanding of the Burning Man principles would lead to that conclusion.

[The Rod]

He don't got no evidence. He's as full o' shit as the rest of 'em.

Anyway my point is that the average burner is going to win the day. If they are vocal about what doesn't work for them and put their money where their mouth is then that will influence things. If they just shut up and put up with what they don't like that will also influence things. That's why I don't agree with the OP. I think people should discuss what's on their minds when it concerns something they are passionate about. The longer this discussion goes on the more information I get to make my mind up on these questions. And I also don't agree that this is about the resentment of wealth for most of those posting opinions here. That's a nice way to discredit and dismiss some imo, worthwhile concerns for the future of Burning Man. The Man is one of the most awesome things that has ever happened to me. I hope I can keep saying that.

This.