Plug n plays running amuk

[Popeye]

Elderberry » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:13 pm
Do we know that to be fact?

For a fact no which is why I suggested a fair hearing. However every print and net source on this camp I have seen leads back to him.
Satisfy yourself, look this guy up, see where he works, what he owns, what he does and then look up the camp asnd see where his company, work connections, etc. connect.

[Wrath]

nothing better then a burner shit storm

Ain't that the truth!

[Sandstorm]

Do we know that to be fact?

From what I read on burners.me a connections has been proven. As I said in my previous post in this thread, I normally take burners.me articles with a big grain of salt. That said, some of what I read on that site about this story was, for a change, not pure tinfoil hat material.

I think it does get listened to. If only because any manager needs feed back on what works and doesn't work. Does Larry study Eplaya every day? Fuck No. But I would bet that he sees a summary.
This level of complaint - eplaya, facebook, and Burners.Me and other net and print atricles- has got to draw attention.

It's hard for the Borg to join in the discussion for the same reason your boss doesn't discuss why you where hired, fired or transferred. It just gives ammunition for a law suit.

I would never expect Larry to have that level of involvement in monitoring the pulse of the community. That said, I'm sure that there's people in the BORG who are reading all of this recent chatter about the PnPs. Over in the BM FB group there's a LOT of very justifiable anger about this situation and story. That angers is manifesting both in posts in the group and via PMS between group members and Halcyon's recent PnP/BORG propaganda "article" has only re-focused that anger. At this point I get the sense that if someone won the lottery and started TTITD Part Deux a LOT of veterans would bail on BM.

[kiboy]

Elderberry » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:13 pm
Do we know that to be fact?

For a fact no which is why I suggested a fair hearing. However every print and net source on this camp I have seen leads back to him.
Satisfy yourself, look this guy up, see where he works, what he owns, what he does and then look up the camp asnd see where his company, work connections, etc. connect.

What I don't get and I never will and so I'll ask this stoopid question anyways, is why would a guy with his credentials and business contacts try to make a few bucks off a P&P at the Man??? I mean he's involved in the pharmaceutical industry. That's where the money is. Am I clueless?

[Ano]

If any of you guys are interested, the named "Sherpa Girl" as I've heard her called in other places, will be doing an interview of sorts at reddit.com/r/burningman, reddit's Burning Man community. She hasn't answered questions yet, but someone in there who claims to have been another worker in camp (and one of three on their strike crew) has chimed in a few things. The most interesting of which is corraboration/confirmation that the Borg was complicit and helped organize the camp in some minor way, and that apparently the area surrounding the camp and within the camp was very dirty.

Interested to see her eventual response, her crewmate's responses, and anything else that can come to light from this topic. I want more information on this. If it comes to light that it is true that the Borg was involved, that's just plain and simple grime. It would be another thing entirely if a third party who was hardly associated with the event organized things... but to have the same Borg that will tout volunteer labor as a paradigm (RC global leadership conference), the principals as a way of life, and are apparently around to "protect" the event and it's trademarks, organize a camp that is one gigantic grey area.. that's just slimey in some way that I can't personally find a good definition for.

[Elderberry]

Elderberry » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:13 pm
Do we know that to be fact?

For a fact no which is why I suggested a fair hearing. However every print and net source on this camp I have seen leads back to him.
Satisfy yourself, look this guy up, see where he works, what he owns, what he does and then look up the camp asnd see where his company, work connections, etc. connect.

What I don't get and I never will and so I'll ask this stoopid question anyways, is why would a guy with his credentials and business contacts try to make a few bucks off a P&P at the Man??? I mean he's involved in the pharmaceutical industry. That's where the money is. Am I clueless?

That's a good question. I wouldn't think that he would.

[lucky420]

oh fuck because the wealthy never stop. They really don't. i have very very wealthy ex in-laws. my mother in law would walk an extra 2 blocks to save a dime on a soda...

[pink]

I believe there was something on the Caravanicle website, which was taken down within a day of the Caravanicle shitstorm starting, first over the unauthorized use of a few artists, etc. to promote the camp.

[Sandstorm]

What I don't get and I never will and so I'll ask this stoopid question anyways, is why would a guy with his credentials and business contacts try to make a few bucks off a P&P at the Man??? I mean he's involved in the pharmaceutical industry. That's where the money is. Am I clueless?

The impression that I got via burners.me is that Jim Tananbaum asked a business associate of his to help organize/run Popsicle Camp. My guess is that the camp was meant to serve/service very affluent people who had never been to BM before. I'm sure that this was less of "How can I profit from being on the BM board" situation and more of one in which one of the 1% was trying to crate a plush landing spot for other members of the 1%.

[kiboy]

That makes sense. Thanks

[kiboy]

oh fuck because the wealthy never stop. They really don't. i have very very wealthy ex in-laws. my mother in law would walk an extra 2 blocks to save a dime on a soda...

Ha ha. People like that are hilarious. I laugh in their general direction.

[lucky420]

It really was bizarre.

[unjonharley]

If any of you guys are interested, the named "Sherpa Girl" as I've heard her called in other places, will be doing an interview of sorts at reddit.com/r/burningman, reddit's Burning Man community. She hasn't answered questions yet, but someone in there who claims to have been another worker in camp (and one of three on their strike crew) has chimed in a few things. The most interesting of which is corraboration/confirmation that the Borg was complicit and helped organize the camp in some minor way, and that apparently the area surrounding the camp and within the camp was very dirty.

So "maybe" one/two? other worker "might" have said BMorg did this or that... And that you have posted this, it's the truth.. wow some scoop.. You strike any large camp. there is going to be moop coming out your ass..

[Lonesomebri]

I'm not forgetting that Larry made BM possible so your word that he's now completely selling it out is not good enough for me. Maybe he has a vision that doesn't match up in all ways with yours but that doesn't constitute a sell out. My ears are open though. So....?

Alot of people, maybe even you and me, made BM possible. I am not part of the cult. I started my first fire when I was five, never heard of Larry.

[Lonesomebri]

Where in the hell were all you cats demanding undeniable facts when it was claimed a piece of meteorite was left in the Burn last year?

Man, then, all it took was seeing the rock in the pre-burn to know it must have been left in the fire, right? All it took was someone claiming they saw others hunt for the rock in the ashes. All it took was rumors and cargo cult-like certainty. Oh, there most certainly was a meteorite in the Burn, the authorities assure me, but Plug and Plays out on 9 and L corrupting the 'hood...? We need god to provide judgement after the end of time reveals all truths. I've looked for articles and on-line info for that cargo-cult meteorite all year. More info on the Plug and Plays than that, though. Hilarious.

The meteorite was not left in the burn, and Plug and Plays suck. Now, you prove me wrong. But wait first.....tic.....tic.....tic.....for all the facts.

[Lonesomebri]

"The good news is that festivals are big business."

It's all business now.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rakeshsharm ... festivals/

"In his talk about festivals, Conley leaves out the most important part about festivals. They are his latest venture….
The good news is that festivals are big business…
These fest attendees are captive audiences for products and advertisers...
Conley is currently global head of hospitality, at AirBnB, a website that allows people to rent out spare rooms…"

(and destroys one residential neighborhood at a time, turning it into hotel rentals.)

“The more virtual we get, the more ritual we need.” 
~ Chip Conley
http://www.burningmanproject.org/about/ ... BjnjFdz-So
Chip Conley, Self-described: Hotel guru. Armchair psychologist. Traveling philosopher.

Hilarious, hilarious, and people buy into it.....
He is selling a product.

[littleflower]

I love how this - which I wrote before I had any idea that *allegedly* some board member created a for-profit camp and worked his employees to death -

I have no problem with people making money at burning man ..... who knows, it may be a great job ....
My problem is that all of these sherpas need a ticket, and available tickets are not plentiful.
it means that someone who really wants to go to Burning Man misses out because someone is WORKING, rather than being a participant.
I love the idea of kidnapping them ...........

somehow resulted in this silly tirade:

I quoted you. Call it bizarre. You did not like criticism of Plug and Plays, excused the bad because not all Plug and Plays were horrible, plus, complete information -the type that never arrives- is necessary to form any opinion...

lol .... really?

Well, at least WE got you posting on your FB page. Welcome to the movement.

you had nothing to do with it. I find it an interesting situation. that is all.

And Burning Man is an artistic success, a human success.... but we each worship in our own way. The Plug and Plays are inhospitable, created by capitalism, the desert is....well.......it ain't no rave......it's a desert.]

I agree .... burning man IS an artistic success, and a human success ... I believe that it is also a capitalist success. it doesn't have to be one or the other. this mess with the popsicle camp is just about assholes .... and they exist in every economic system, not just capitalism.

we are in complete agreement that the desert is a desert.

[kiboy]

I'm not forgetting that Larry made BM possible so your word that he's now completely selling it out is not good enough for me. Maybe he has a vision that doesn't match up in all ways with yours but that doesn't constitute a sell out. My ears are open though. So....?

A lot of people, maybe even you and me, made BM possible. I am not part of the cult. I started my first fire when I was five, never heard of Larry.

Yes that's right we showed up and contributed. But someone was already there calling to us. I'm just saying Larry and his ilk has gotten us this far. A lot of burns and a lot of joy and community. He's an imperfect vehicle as we all are. And no matter what he does someone's going to be hating it. I don't particularly like P&P but I'm not totally convinced yet it doesn't have a place at the Man. Just because I don't like something doesn't make it wrong.

I haven't burned in over 10 years and I've never been very political so I've got some catching up to do. When I'm not posting here I'm reading what I can find about this situation and the BOD and anything else that pops up while still trying to focus on how fucking great Burning Man is and you all are and how glad I am to be here. So excuse me if I'm not ready to lynch anyone just yet. Maybe I will be though once I feel like I have enough info to make me comfortable enough to make my best guess. Right now I do feel that the BOD shouldn't be directly involved in selling the P&P. That feels very nasty to me and I would have thought they would have thought that out for themselves. I've been on a BOD of a Natural Foods Coop that was doing a lot of business. Not a tiny place at all (Ashland Food Co-op) I was so unimpressed at the BOD I resigned in disgust. So believe me I know what can go on. I just want to be sure it IS going on before taking a stand because I hate making myself look like an idiot and I hate the idea of slandering someone who is basically innocent.

And whatever happens if the spirit of BM is real and strong it will survive. Maybe by a bunch of us abandoning this place and beginning something new and fresh with ideals basically intact. But you know what will happen to that one over time? The same thing that is happening here. So I hope we get this right.

[Sandstorm]

And whatever happens if the spirit of BM is real and strong it will survive. Maybe by a bunch of us abandoning this place and beginning something new and fresh with ideals basically intact. But you know what will happen to that one over time? The same thing that is happening here. So I hope we get this right.

Again, I love that you're staying so even keeled in your take on this situation.

As for TTITD Part Deux, I think that the leadership council of a new event could learn a lot of good and bad lessons from how the founders and the BORG have handled BM all these years. While I'm not saying that the leadership council of that hypothetical new event would be perfect I do think that they would be able to make choices and rules that would prevent the type of profiteering and conflicts of interest that we seem to be seeing at BM via the PnP situation.

[kiboy]

And whatever happens if the spirit of BM is real and strong it will survive. Maybe by a bunch of us abandoning this place and beginning something new and fresh with ideals basically intact. But you know what will happen to that one over time? The same thing that is happening here. So I hope we get this right.

Again, I love that you're staying so even keeled in your take on this situation.

As for TTITD Part Deux, I think that the leadership council of a new event could learn a lot of good and bad lessons from how the founders and the BORG have handled BM all these years. While I'm not saying that the leadership council of that hypothetical new event would be perfect I do think that they would be able to make choices and rules that would prevent the type of profiteering and conflicts of interest that we seem to be seeing at BM via the PnP situation.

At least for our lifetimes huh! Entropy brings everything to it's knees eventually. In human affairs, all through history, civilizations are born, reach their apex and then decline and decay and must be destroyed to make way for the process to complete it's circular nature. I have no expectation that anything man made can survive our human weaknesses over time. "Twas ever thus" said Mr. Natural.

The best bet for success imo is to get in on the ground floor while something is young (energetic) and still small. I'm actually hoping for a major spin off of the Man by those who hold the basic principles, as written, sacred. Not because they are better than anything else but because they work for me and I love them. I love the idea of them and I love to guide my own life by them.

[Sandstorm]

At least for our lifetimes huh! Entropy brings everything to it's knees eventually. In human affairs, all through history, civilizations are born, reach their apex and then decline and decay and must be destroyed to make way for the process to complete it's circular nature. I have no expectation that anything man made can survive our human weaknesses over time. "Twas ever thus" said Mr. Natural.

The best bet for success imo is to get in on the ground floor while something is young (energetic) and still small. I'm actually hoping for a major spin off of the Man by those who hold the basic principles, as written, sacred. Not because they are better than anything else but because they work for me and I love them. I love the idea of them and I love to guide my own life by them.

Back in '12 I camped with a camp in the Black Rock French Quarter village, which features the better part of 20 camps and whose main physical feature is a 2 story building that's about 50' in length and which is designed in the classic New Orleans style that features shops on the main floor and a balcony that runs the length of the second floor.

During that burn there was one night late in the week when I was up on the roof the BRFQ building. I was quietly watching the chaos of the playa when I started crying and that was because I realized that I was in a city where there was no signage, no ad sprawl and no logos except for those left exposed on certain/many RVs. As a point of reference, I'm a 45 year old native NYer who lives in NYC and for over 10 years I worked in Times Square. Being in BRC is wonderful in so many ways and one of those it that there is an almost complete lack of commerce and capitalism. Yes, it's capitalism that allows BM to happen but it's people who believe in something MORE and BETTER than capitalism and the almighty dollar/pound/euro/yen that make BRC such a special place to be. Whatever it is that rises from the entropy that's consuming BM I want it to be as, if not more, non-commercial than BM. IMHO, the world needs as many of those type of events as is possible.

[kiboy]

I agree. I hope to see you there brother.

I have a very modest amount of money. Just a little more than enough to get by really. Now soon I'll be dead so I decided to retire early. I could have used my time trying to amass more money. I decided to spend what I had on free time and risk not having enough somewhere down the road. Ultimately it was an easy choice for me and I'm glad I'm not the type that would choose the other. Not saying I'm better, just different. More power to them but in all honesty I don't like hanging with those types. They only seem able to think about one thing.

[theCryptofishist]

During that burn there was one night late in the week when I was up on the roof the BRFQ building. I was quietly watching the chaos of the playa when I started crying and that was because I realized that I was in a city where there was no signage, no ad sprawl and no logos except for those left exposed on certain/many RVs. As a point of reference, I'm a 45 year old native NYer who lives in NYC and for over 10 years I worked in Times Square. Being in BRC is wonderful in so many ways and one of those it that there is an almost complete lack of commerce and capitalism. Yes, it's capitalism that allows BM to happen but it's people who believe in something MORE and BETTER than capitalism and the almighty dollar/pound/euro/yen that make BRC such a special place to be. Whatever it is that rises from the entropy that's consuming BM I want it to be as, if not more, non-commercial than BM. IMHO, the world needs as many of those type of events as is possible.

I view advertising as a scourge, a huge psycho-social experiment on a country (and world) that has not consented, and is despised by the people who create it.

And yes, that's one of the things I think we're losing.

[jasonk]

You strike any large camp. there is going to be moop coming out your ass..

An experienced friend who's volunteered on large art builds, or for BRC, believes the MOOP map is manipulated.

[jneilvindy]

I really like saying the word amuk.

That's all I got on this topic!

[Elderberry]

I really like saying the word amuk.

That's all I got on this topic!

Which is as much as many of the other posts on this thread.

[kiboy]

But not yours?

[Sandstorm]

I agree. I hope to see you there brother.

I have a very modest amount of money. Just a little more than enough to get by really. Now soon I'll be dead so I decided to retire early. I could have used my time trying to amass more money. I decided to spend what I had on free time and risk not having enough somewhere down the road. Ultimately it was an easy choice for me and I'm glad I'm not the type that would choose the other. Not saying I'm better, just different. More power to them but in all honesty I don't like hanging with those types. They only seem able to think about one thing.

Yes, I hope that we both make it back there next year. If you end up making that trip drop me a line and let me know that you'll be in BRC.

I underlined a segment of your above quoted post because I often say about certain things "It's not better, just different".

Good for you that you made that decision regarding your retirement. You and I have similar mindsets in that regard. I'm only 45 and thus I hopefully, knock on wood, have many (good) years ahead of me. Over the past almost 14 years I spent too much time and money taking care of a group of people in my family who were not taking care of themselves. That reality will impact my finances for years to come but I don't regret having behaved in a manner that I define as being a caring human being. Although in the coming years I'll need to find a new career for myself I don't intend to become a desk jockey, to chain myself to life that is antithetical to the spirit and ethos of BRC. While I've only been burning since '07 I can honestly say that my 6 burns have transformed me and my life for the better. Whether or not I make it back to BM next year or again I intend for my future to be more, not less like BM.

But not yours?

I view advertising as a scourge, a huge psycho-social experiment on a country (and world) that has not consented, and is despised by the people who create it.

And yes, that's one of the things I think we're losing.

That was very well stated.

Today I read the following article:

burning-man-founders-admit-the-festival-has-jumped-the-shark-but-thats-okay/

There was a quote in the the article that concerned me:

"“If we just sat back and did nothing it could be a bad thing, but when you get people with greater diversity. If we can change corporate America then we really can have an impact. It’s a dialogue that is happening between the new people that are coming and the old people who’ve been coming awhile,” said Dubois."

While I believe in the power of BM to inspire positive changes in the default world I really have to question the fact that various members of the BM BOD believes that they can change corporate America, be it through who is on the BOD or who it is that comes to BM and stays in the more luxurious PnP camps. The fact that the BOD now contains some rabid capitalists who have serious status quo tendencies makes me wonder if some of the more Burner-ish BOD members are drinking their own Kool Aid. Who knows, perhaps I'm just being cynical or hyper-critical in this paragraph.

[Elderberry]

That also depends on the age of the person sometimes. Some people that were around to experience the depression had similar behaviors. (My partner does that too. He also will go out of his way to pick up change off the sidewalk.)

oh fuck because the wealthy never stop. They really don't. i have very very wealthy ex in-laws. my mother in law would walk an extra 2 blocks to save a dime on a soda...

[Elderberry]

But not yours?

Hey, lots of mine rank right up there too!