Self-righteous, wealth-resenting burners running amok

[goathead]

angry-mob-playset.jpg

Guillotine extra?

[Jackass]

Sold separately, batteries are not included...

[goathead]

How about cake?

[goathead]

Is there really much difference between an unwashed hippie and an overly clean billionaire?

[graidawg]

one has no gifts the other just doesn't give them out

[kiboy]

Those exploitative elites are not looking to be enlightened, and would laugh at you for suggesting they need it, even if good people who are looking for enlightenment can not fathom that reality.

I've spent forty years experimenting and studying on your statement above and can say with confidence that you are right. I'll go on to say that many just won't confront this truth out of fear, because if they acknowledge it as true they would need to take direct action. (scary stuff that) Mostly (and I totally understand because good folk are live and let live and just want to get on with their fun) we hope if we ignore a problem it will go away on it's own. That's just what exploiters are counting on and why they win so often.

[theCryptofishist]

I'm just going to say that I think exploitation is one of the evils in the world. I don't know if the "Sherpa's" story is true, and I haven't thought of any way of verifying it. If it is true, I don't want that sort of exploitative labor practice at the event. And here I am, actually, citizen of Black Rock again, at least in my heart. I don't want this fucking garbage going on in my city, or in collapsing Bangladesh buildings, or in the mining of blood diamonds, or locking chicken processing workers in a building so that when there's a fire, they die. evil, evil, evil...

Yeah, the Sherpa's better off than those others. They could have--should have?--brought water. They may know people who can feed them. They didn't die. Anyway, it upsets me, and I, like some others may go too far rhetorically when I am upset. Sometimes I even go wordless. And just like I shouldn't "go there" being answered softly, with some compassion, helps me to calm down.

I dunno.

And if it's true that they 3% of the take, I'm not happy about that either.

Oh well.

[Elderberry]

So what gives burners.me any credibility? The domain name is registered to someone that keeps his identity hidden. As far as I can tell, everyone posting on that site uses pseudonyms. It's easy to sling shit when hidden by the cloak of anonymity. Yet, what they have written seems to be the whole basis for the PnP discussions on eplaya.

[kiboy]

So what gives burners.me any credibility? The domain name is registered to someone that keeps his identity hidden. As far as I can tell, everyone posting on that site uses pseudonyms. It's easy to sling shit when hidden by the cloak of anonymity. Yet, what they have written seems to be the whole basis for the PnP discussions on eplaya.

Sure would help clear the air for me if that BOD member just made a statement about this situation and explained if they really were involved and in what way. Is there some reason they couldn't do that? I mean they are just a BRC resident like the rest of us. Right? I would hope they would have some trust in our intentions.

[Elderberry]

If he were not involved, denying it would do nothing except fan the flames and convince the conspiracy theorists they were right to begin with. It's a lose lose for him. Damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

[theCryptofishist]

So what gives burners.me any credibility? The domain name is registered to someone that keeps his identity hidden. As far as I can tell, everyone posting on that site uses pseudonyms. It's easy to sling shit when hidden by the cloak of anonymity. Yet, what they have written seems to be the whole basis for the PnP discussions on eplaya.

Yeah, I'm chary of burners.meh. So... agendized. (Yes, I made up a word. I verbed it, even.)

[goathead]

If he were not involved, denying it would do nothing except fan the flames and convince the conspiracy theorists they were right to begin with. It's a lose lose for him. Damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

in the end, it really doesn't matter. what does is we are talking/snarking about it and what do we find acceptable.

[graidawg]

I've pitched in on this a few times but today i think what can we do about it? my camp certainly can't bring enough water/food/shelter for 10 extra people, and even if we could it probably wouldn't achieve the goal of preventing more spectator camps springing up.
I could not go in protest but my ticket would just go to someone else. i can write protests on here but that won't stop board members wanting to make n extra few $$$. all i can really do is go until BM is no longer something i want to spend money on.
whatever is the truth of popsicle camp, and i don't get why people are so hung up on proof - we all know it's happening - it's clear most of us are unhappy about it and nearly all of us can do nothing about it.

the change that is happening to BM is not something we want, even though it was predicted my first year when tickets sold out. Its not scalpers trying to make a few extra bucks, its people higher up. though its almost certainly not Larry, he could just put ticket prices up if he wanted more money.

burning man has a unique feel to it that will be difficult to recreate elsewhere, certainly on any great scale. smaller events have a wonderful magic to them. the official uk regional was magical in a similar way its first year but only had about 100 people as do other unoficial gatherings I know the community i went to wales with this year feels much the same as my usa family - when the reno regional finally dies or at least turns into something undesirable the burning community will continue to exist in other places and that will have to do.

I am done commenting on this now.

[kiboy]

Yeah it's beginning to feel like this is all talked out now and I suspect you are right. I'm in my 60s and I've watched this process in several things I've loved. I've had to let them go and say goodbye. Nothing has gone the other way. Sooo hopefully I'll get a ticket in 15 or explore regionals. If I can't get a ticket well I'll always have three burns to remember fondly. One day I'll soon I'll have to let go of myself too. This is good practice. Like sitting in the graveyard meditating next to the rotting corpses.

In the mean time I'll play here with you all. There is a lot of passion here still and in the Man. I can feel it. You guys rock. I'm glad you're here.

[Isotopia]

I don't know if the "Sherpa's" story is true, and I haven't thought of any way of verifying it

Maybe start here to begin your journey down the ever growing rabbit hole.

Supposedly the accusations began here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/laburners/

and grew like a prairie fire over here:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/10205301569801653/

By now I'm sure there are other links to check. It only gets better as you realize (from the allegations) that the money making aspect of the camp(s) in question are linked to one of the BORG Board members.

[pink]

Now this was from burners.me or at least that's where I found it, but the Caravanicle.com domain name was registered to tannenbaum, which is where the connection comes in to JT. He was also mentioned in the liability disclaimer on the Caravanicle forms the purchasers of the package had to sign (which I did see on the website before the website was shut down).

[Lonesomebri]

As far as I can tell, everyone posting on that site uses pseudonyms. It's easy to sling shit when hidden by the cloak of anonymity. Yet, what they have written seems to be the whole basis for the PnP discussions on eplaya.

They kicked me off my land.

Keep trying to make this out as unfounded and wrong.

They set up in my old neighborhood, the one I was chased out of last year by some "chill" camp. I rode my bike out to 9 and L at the very start of the week this year and saw the trucks full of empty AC and fridge boxes. My old neighborhood was gone, nothing but a wall of RVs. I saw the row of identical brand new electric bikes lined up. I, because i think, clears throat, wondered how these camps got set up on day 1 without early entry. How could they sell the product of attendence to customers while the rest of us, including directed sales camps, scrambled for tickets? We....clears throat....are not idiots, we have lived alittle and can read the writing on the wall. At various times of the week I would cruise by to see the fortresses taking shape. Towards the end of the week I stopped in and used their pubic porto. I stopped by old neighborhood friends and we talked about this. He posted right here when he got back, before any facebook sherpa post. I was already flaming by then also. So........well.....

Then I found out that the BM project is involved with grandiose bullshitting over themselves, the Festival 300 advertisement for selling even more burn tickets, insider outlawed drone flying, etc. But, hey, gotta give the powerful the benefit of the doubt. At least some folks do.

[lucky420]

As far as I can tell, everyone posting on that site uses pseudonyms. It's easy to sling shit when hidden by the cloak of anonymity. Yet, what they have written seems to be the whole basis for the PnP discussions on eplaya.

They kicked me off my land.

Keep trying to make this out as unfounded and wrong.

They set up in my old neighborhood, the one I was chased out of last year by some "chill" camp. I rode my bike out to 9 and L at the very start of the week this year and saw the trucks full of empty AC and fridge boxes. My old neighborhood was gone, nothing but a wall of RVs. I saw the row of identical brand new electric bikes lined up. I, because i think, clears throat, wondered how these camps got set up on day 1 without early entry. How could they sell the product of attendence to customers while the rest of us, including directed sales camps, scrambled for tickets? We....clears throat....are not idiots, we have lived alittle and can read the writing on the wall. At various times of the week I would cruise by to see the fortresses taking shape. Towards the end of the week I stopped in and used their pubic porto. I stopped by old neighborhood friends and we talked about this. He posted right here when he got back, before any facebook sherpa post. I was already flaming by then also. So........well.....

Then I found out that the BM project is involved with grandiose bullshitting over themselves, the Festival 300 advertisement for selling even more burn tickets, insider outlawed drone flying, etc. But, hey, gotta give the powerful the benefit of the doubt. At least some folks do.

You are wonderful

[theCryptofishist]

(Isn't he, though?)

[BBadger]

How about shaming people who MAKE alot of money on our burn?

Why should we do that? They're keeping the price in line with what we should want it to be. Attending Burning Man should be expensive (money, or time+effort) and it is certainly not cheap to service such a remote, inhospitable location. If or when they're instead helping to make BM cheap and easy to attend then we should be worried. Yet, for some reason, people aren't outraged that BMOrg is allowing people to take a bus to attend the event, rather than having to bring everything or bum rides, or cough up $12k to stay in an RV at a PnP camp. In terms of tickets being used up, I'd say the mass transportation system is going to cause the real harm here if the reduced road damage doesn't factor into ticket limits.

But back to those PnPers: this PnP phenomena is really quite strange. I suspect that most of this has been driven by videos and pictures of people whom attended on far reduced means. People enjoying their time in a crazy place, an experience that may be heightened by having to survive with what you brought, or knowing that what you improved from last year made the difference.

But the PnPer? What do they do? They've got tons of free time to ... look at a giant city of tents and other hodge-podge camps? Attend free events and bars? Look at some art in the middle of a lake bed? Attend a dance club or two and maybe be allowed to go on a MV? And then stay to watch some big statue burn? I did some of that the first couple days and then was pretty bored of that. It almost sounds like a free county fair... and for $12k?

What do the PnP camps offer? A bar? Cooked meals? RVs? Oh yeah, and rented Segways to look at stuff night in and night out. Do they hang out at this "resort" among the rest of the city that is the real "event"?

This is what your $12k gets you?

Quite frankly, I'd say they're a bunch of suckers, and that these people will leave feeling the same. Word is going to get around "Burning Man sucks; don't go -- at least don't pay out the nose to do it" because taking in the scenery for $12k or even $2k just isn't worth it. I think this plug and play phenomena is a dying breed.

Maybe something good will come of this too. A person pays out the nose to attend Burning Man, but discovers that whatever public camp activities are what was really fun about the event, not seeing the art the first day on the Segway or listening to a camp DJ. A person who "spectates" (observes) that there are a lot of people having a much better time despite, or because of, fewer means. That what they spent went into their camps or infrastructure, rather than a service. That the effort they put into their camps and trip is also part of the experience.

That Burning Man is often more about the glue that creates the event, rather than the event itself.

If they don't get that, whatever. They spent their $12k and won't return. Expectations dashed (as I was laughing about with respect to disappointed people in the "Jeers"). I hope they tell all their friends too. "I went to Burning Man and really didn't get why everyone thinks it's so cool." Maybe we do need these people to spread the word for the good of the event, especially if they're paying out the nose for it.

Serve them up $12k worth of dashed expectations is priceless.

[kiboy]

My only comment would be that if you are seriously rich $12 to 17k is just a drop in the bucket. If I was rich I might return for several years or more doing it the way it is. Not everyone sees the experience the way you do. They might be thrilled to remain a spectator. Burning Man is pretty awesome even done that way imo. I want more from it but that's because of the way I live in the default world. They might not realize the values we hold dear due to lack of experience with them in the default world.

[BBadger]

I have a problem when someone is telling someone else how they should act at Burning Man. And that looks like what the PnP camps are doing. Bringing in ticketed employees that are made to implement a camp-wide interaction policy rather than burning their own burn. Or else. On another level they are also telling their customers how to act. They are providing a Burning Man Experience on rails, keep your head and limbs inside the vehicle at all times! Wear this costume, give this gift, ride this bike, interact with these particular humans we have paid not to upset you.

Oh don't give us that lame, for-your-own-good bullshit about protecting these PnPer from the monotony experience. OH NO! They didn't get to decorate their own bikes with the blinkies that everyone else buys from Amazon.com!! Oh no, they sleep in cookie-cutter RVs, unlike those people renting the same Cruise America RVs. Dear God, they didn't get to "experience" a camp where some people have Costco Carports shading their tents, and others use Monkey Huts.

It's not like these camps have a vested interest in having everyone wearing the exact same uniform. They're not going to forbid someone from bringing and doing their own stuff. Is this what you expect of PnP camps?

The only reason some of these camps provide such stuff (lights, costumes, events, etc.) is if the attendees didn't think to do it themselves. So really, why would this even be "missed" when it didn't enter their heads to begin with, or even end up in a different, better state otherwise? Usually people are thinking in these terms only after they've attended once, or read up on what others have done, which certainly does not preclude these PnPers.

And if that's really the case overall then the thing to do would be to educate and engage and if necessary monitor these P&Ps. Let them know they need to participate as a camp with the rest of the city.

Ugh, every year I hear the plain awful solution to the problem is to "mentor" new Burners and force them into some regime that complies with some subjective standards. That whole idea needs to be conferred to the MOOP pile of time.

People will "participate" how they're going to participate, not just how you think or observe them participating. If you want to educate people in how you think is the best way to burn, lead by example, doing what you do. Maybe that'll interest someone, maybe not, but ultimately that is not your decision to be made.

OK I didn't realize the tortoise did plug and play. Did they wall off their encampment? Discourage entry by non paying burners? It's things like that, that matter to me rather than cost. I just can't believe most people here care if someone is rich or not. Maybe I'm wrong.

Um, do you allow the entire playa to wander around your camp and and use the facilities you brought? Shower in your showers? Borrow your piss jug or use your bucket-toilet? Grab a beer out of your cooler? Eat your food? Dump water in your evap pond?

No? Or not without asking and approval? Or only in publicly designated zones?

So why are PnP camps obligated to do so with their stuff? Yeah, another double-standard here.

Someone who feel entitled to everyone else's stuff and complains when he's not allowed to take things because others "have more" is just one definition of a hippie.

Burning Man is not a hippie event.

[Elderberry]

Now this was from burners.me or at least that's where I found it, but the Caravanicle.com domain name was registered to tannenbaum, which is where the connection comes in to JT. He was also mentioned in the liability disclaimer on the Caravanicle forms the purchasers of the package had to sign (which I did see on the website before the website was shut down).

I just verified that the domain name is indeed registerd to tannenbaum. That's all the proof I need to confirm his involvement.

[geospyder]

Rambling...

Some people change their own oil and get great satisfaction that they did it themselves.

Some people change their own oil because they can't afford to pay to have it changed.

Some people pay to have their oil changed strictly for convenience.

Some people pay to have their oil changed because they have no idea nor inclination on how to do it themselves.

How the oil is changed doesn't make the person good or bad.

Now if you drain the oil on the street and leave the empty cans there as you drive away - that is another story.

End of rambling...

[kiboy]

BBadger said.Ugh, every year I hear the plain awful solution to the problem is to "mentor" new Burners and force them into some regime that complies with some subjective standards. That whole idea needs to be conferred to the MOOP pile of time.

People will "participate" how they're going to participate, not just how you think or observe them participating. If you want to educate people in how you think is the best way to burn, lead by example, doing what you do. Maybe that'll interest someone, maybe not, but ultimately that is not your decision to be made.

Wait wait, what is the Burning Man site doing with it's 10 principles and newbs guides? OK dump the 10 principles and fuck the rest of that advice. Let's just go party. Because that's what you're saying as far as I can tell. Some camp just left a huge pile of MOOP on the playa cause hey that's how they want to burn so get the fuck off their case. The Burning Man site is designed to menor new folk into the culture of BM as far as I can see. Why not extend that to everyone?

As to your response to me about letting people just walk into your camp I hear you. However if they are set up as a theme camp that to me means interactive. If they are basically saying no admittance and not providing any theme camp interactions outside the camp then I'm wondering why they seem to be getting the theme camp status. What am I missing about that?

[5280MeV]

Ugh, every year I hear the plain awful solution to the problem is to "mentor" new Burners and force them into some regime that complies with some subjective standards. That whole idea needs to be conferred to the MOOP pile of time.

People will "participate" how they're going to participate, not just how you think or observe them participating. If you want to educate people in how you think is the best way to burn, lead by example, doing what you do. Maybe that'll interest someone, maybe not, but ultimately that is not your decision to be made.

I actually wholeheartedly agree with this to a point, and that point is the stated parameters of the event - call them rules, principles, or whatever.

If people aren't leaving trash on the ground, then no one needs to try to educate them on LNT.

If people are not vending, then no one needs to try to educate them on the no vending policy, or "decommodification" for those that prefer jargon.

Some people pay to have their oil changed strictly for convenience.

Sure, and that is great, and that is vending. It is selling a service. When this happens, getting an oil change becomes commodified. It is no longer something that you do yourself or get a friend to help you with because they love seeing you thrive. It is a service that can be bought and sold. That is what commodification means.

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I think that it is a really awful idea to not allow buying and selling of services and goods in any real and productive society. I think that the history of such planned economies has demonstrated pretty well that the whole program is a miserable disaster.

That doesn't mean that a group of people can't agree to go out on a primitive camping trip and agree for one week not to buy or sell goods and services while they are there. I kinda thought that was where the fun was in all this.

You can also agree to go on a primitive camping trip and not buy or sell goods and services, but allow certain agreed upon pragmatic exceptions, such as paying the key event and emergency staff for their time, selling a specified commodity (i.e. ice) in a specified manner, paying for port-a-john cleaners to service city-wide provided toilets. These sorts of limited exemptions serve to make an event that is more fun and interesting in my opinion.

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So what are we all really doing here, both at Burning Man and the regional events?

If everyone is just going to say that pre-paid vending is ok, then it is simply not the case that you are creating social environments that are (largely) free from commercial transactions. So you have to drop the principle from the list of things that your event is about, or at least modify it.

I don't know - maybe the whole "decommodification" thing is a red herring. My brother does a lot of costume conventions, and they seem to be very active in creating their own DIY stuff, being expressive, throwing parties and events where things are given away, and generally having a lot of positive fun.

Personally, I would rather make shit for an event where we all agreed in advance that our art/bars/fun/music/party shit was all for the hell of it and not to make a buck. It sounds more interesting to me.

I just wish Burning Man, The Burning Man Project, and The Burning Man Regional Network, would make a decision about what the parameters of the event and the "movement" that they are advancing are.

Just be honest - is vending generally allowed for the week? If there are restrictions, state them clearly in the survival guide. If I am allowed to run a catering business then say so and state the regulations.

[Lonesomebri]

How about shaming people who MAKE alot of money on our burn?

Why should we do that?
Serve them up $12k worth of dashed expectations is priceless.

Because I don't have $17,000 to blow or a segway to dance on to have a good time, I celebrate the Burn the way I want. And these people totally expect to be worshiped and desired and envied and excuses made for them by the little people, complete with alittle bowing and scrapping, just like in the "default" world. That's what they really want, not some bogus enlightenment. Dashing those expectations; priceless.

[Elderberry]

Oh Please.

How about shaming people who MAKE alot of money on our burn?

Because I don't have $17,000 to blow or a segway to dance on to have a good time, I celebrate the Burn the way I want. And these people totally expect to be worshiped and desired and envied and excuses made for them by the little people, complete with alittle bowing and scrapping, just like in the "default" world. That's what they really want, not some bogus enlightenment. Dashing those expectations; priceless.

[BBadger]

How about shaming people who MAKE alot of money on our burn?

Why should we do that?
Serve them up $12k worth of dashed expectations is priceless.

Because I don't have $17,000 to blow or a segway to dance on to have a good time, I celebrate the Burn the way I want. And these people totally expect to be worshiped and desired and envied and excuses made for them by the little people, complete with alittle bowing and scrapping, just like in the "default" world. That's what they really want, not some bogus enlightenment. Dashing those expectations; priceless.

See, this is why this really is all about bitter, wealth resentment.

Let it go Lonesomebri. I honestly don't know why you care about or even acknowledge what (you think) they might be thinking. Why even dignify their existence by even trying to dash their expectations, shaming them, or spending any effort on them. They'll dash their own expectations.

[kiboy]

Maybe that's true. It is true but it's also true they can use their wealth to spoil your fun. It happens.