Therapy, psychology, and all that jazz.

[FossaFerox]

I just wanted to chime in on the rate point the captain made, especially since he compared it to a gym.

As a personal trainer I charged a full 33% more than your therapist, $120 an hour. And at that price I saw some of my clients for more than 300 hours.

The reason those professions cost so much to see is we can only work halo hours, I.e. the hours just outside and around normal working hours. So we might see clients for a mere 4 hours a day. We also spend a huge amount of time going over our time with you and deciding how best to help you in our next session, so you're effectively paying for that time as well...

[Jovankat]

Well, I was just doing the dishes and thinking...I agree with CG on many aspects of this "discussion", so does that make me rude and ignorant? Am I doing it wrong? Am I beyond help? Truth be told, I had a long-term relationship with a noted psychiatrist. I was having a little trouble making/keeping friends. She noted that I would sometimes say what I was thinking, thereby "putting them off". I was taught that if I thought someone was rude and stupid, that I probably should not say it to them "out loud". I found I could have a plethora of friends...good ones. I know CG, and think he is a capable, friendly and smart man. You however, have shown me that you cannot be a friend.

I was polite to CG, he was the one who resorted to name calling and insulting terms yet I'm the rude one?

[Captain Goddammit]

What name did I call you?

[Jovankat]

At $90/hr the rip-off artist better not bother me with their problems or I'd give 'em a new one!

My issue with psycho quacks is what they think their time is worth.

Everyone knows they are the most messed up in the head people around, themselves.

Handing that kind of money to a rip off artist is optional. Some of us aren't that foolish.

Yep. You're a really lovely bloke who has been nothing but polite and respectful in this conversation.

[Captain Goddammit]

Was that calling someone names or was that a generalization toward a profession?

[Jovankat]

How about we call it generalising a profession with insulting names?

[Elliot]

Allrightythen....

Since I may be the one here with the most recent experience in the field -- as a patient, I mean.
I suppose I might want to listen in on this thread.

But right now I ought to finish my lunch and go outside and set up a dome, to make sure I have all the pieces and know how to do it.

Before I do that, this much I know:

*There are professionals out there with knowledge that can very much "rewire a brain" to function much better than before, specially if that functioning was poor to start with, such as in my case in recent years. (Look up Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.)

*There are amateurs out there with the same skills.

*As in any trade, there are professionals out there with marginal skills.

*When two people need to collaborate about something important, it really helps that they get along.

*Improving one's mental health requires extensive effort over time, just like with one's physical fitness.

*Convincing the patient to make that effort may be the most difficult task any mental health professional (or amateur) can take on. In my 50 hours of group therapy last month, I resisted tooth and nail for 40 hours, afraid of failing, and afraid of the unknown. I clung to my incapacitating depression as "the Devil I knew", rather than face something else that might be worse. It took a pretty darn skilled Therapist to bring me out of that shell, I dare say, knowing my own stubbornness.

Well, that dome is not assembling itself.

[FIGJAM]

[dana]

*Convincing the patient to make that effort may be the most difficult task any mental health professional (or amateur) can take on. In my 50 hours of group therapy last month, I resisted tooth and nail for 40 hours, afraid of failing, and afraid of the unknown. I clung to my incapacitating depression as "the Devil I knew", rather than face something else that might be worse. It took a pretty darn skilled Therapist to bring me out of that shell, I dare say, knowing my own stubbornness.

Well said. As far as how much some therapists suck I get the impression that's often true (although sometimes its clearly the patient.) I've done a lot of 'talk therapy' as part of my practice and sometimes it was phenomenal. The patients were fairly blown away by the things that came up and how quickly we got there. But I've gotta say it requires a greater level of focus on my part than I am really willing to give most of the time. Its almost like going into a kind of trance state when it happens well. Its as if there is this story line hovering somewhere above the patient that I am reading to them. I see whether it all fits and then give them tools to work with it. That's where the real work starts - on their own.

I've worked with a large group of folks over many years doing 'personal growth' type stuff. From my perspective you spend roughly the first 10 years just nudging things around and learning the terrain and then the next 10 years really digging in and making serious changes in who you are.

[Savannah]

Allrightythen....

Since I may be the one here with the most recent experience in the field -- as a patient, I mean.
I suppose I might want to listen in on this thread.

But right now I ought to finish my lunch and go outside and set up a dome, to make sure I have all the pieces and know how to do it.

Before I do that, this much I know:

*There are professionals out there with knowledge that can very much "rewire a brain" to function much better than before, specially if that functioning was poor to start with, such as in my case in recent years. (Look up Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.)

*There are amateurs out there with the same skills.

*As in any trade, there are professionals out there with marginal skills.

*When two people need to collaborate about something important, it really helps that they get along.

*Improving one's mental health requires extensive effort over time, just like with one's physical fitness.

*Convincing the patient to make that effort may be the most difficult task any mental health professional (or amateur) can take on. In my 50 hours of group therapy last month, I resisted tooth and nail for 40 hours, afraid of failing, and afraid of the unknown. I clung to my incapacitating depression as "the Devil I knew", rather than face something else that might be worse. It took a pretty darn skilled Therapist to bring me out of that shell, I dare say, knowing my own stubbornness.

Well, that dome is not assembling itself.

[media]

[Captain Goddammit]

If you feel it's worth what you spend, then for you, it's a good thing and I'm especially happy for Elliot.
In my case I received no value whatsoever and paid a lot of money.
I'm a very, very dissatisfied customer.
It's that simple.

[delle]

Getting a bit personal for a second here, Capt'n.... but am I wrong in presuming that you consulted during the breakdown of your marriage that just really wasn't working out for either of you?

Because if so, it really would be money thrown away.

A therapist's first job is to look at a stated problem and help you go in that direction. I'm doubting your stated direction was "Help me leave this woman and find one who complements me".

Had it been, perhaps your assessment of the experience might have been different.

[Captain Goddammit]

I wrote a few responses, all ended up too long and I kept deleting.
I'll just edit it down to no that's not correct, and there was no marriage.

[kowtow]

Here's my philosophy and it's not worth anything more than what I paid to join this forum:

1. Psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists have cost me thousands of dollars over the years. Money spent well during those difficult times.
2. Wives and ex-wives have cost me ten's of thousands of dollars and I'm still trying to do the math on the value:cost ratio there, but I know it's terribly low.
3. By far the BEST value for cost ratio for money I've spent on my physical and emotional needs has come in the form of paid for temporary female companionship (e.g. strippers, escorts and the like).

If I had it to do all over again, I would have combined the money from #1 and #2 and spent all that money on #3 thereby giving me a lifetime of immediate satisfaction and probably a lot more happiness in the long run.

BUT, understand that's just me. I think #1, 2 and 3 have their place in the world, but for me #3 tends to keep me the happiest for the longest period of time for the least amount of money.

[delle]

I wrote a few responses, all ended up too long and I kept deleting.
I'll just edit it down to no that's not correct, and there was no marriage.

Understood. Sorry if I crossed a line.

[Captain Goddammit]

To add a bit to what Kowtow said:
One issue I once paid a 'rapist about was "why do I always end up with psycho bitches from hell?"
Any guy can tell you that. Because they are the ones who are fun, until the bomb goes off. I'm getting too old to have that much fun.

[Captain Goddammit]

Understood. Sorry if I crossed a line.

Lol on eplaya? Not possible.

[graidawg]

when i was having a breakdown because of my fathers suicide - which emotionally destroyed me, i seriously considered going to see a therapist instead i talked to my friends and took a LOT of "stuff" it worked for me, up to a point. when i had reached the point of "ah well i've had enough" it was burning man that "cured" me. though i have had friends who have been to CBT therapists and its worked for them. there is no "1 size fits all".

[dana]

[Late night thoughts... Jacked up on Bactrim (antibiotic) and not sleeping much for 4 days so I hope this makes sense? Just read back through the thread and realized I still can't picture what really happened with these therapists.]

To add a bit to what Kowtow said:
One issue I once paid a 'rapist about was "why do I always end up with psycho bitches from hell?"
Any guy can tell you that. Because they are the ones who are fun, until the bomb goes off. I'm getting too old to have that much fun.

Ok so seriously Captain God, all of these different therapists merely listened and never started asking you rather pointed questions at some point? Things like maybe "So you already know those are going to be exciting and fun at the same time you know you will never have to really stick with it for the long haul - you'll just walk away. Does that have anything to do with things like vulnerability, ability to really love, work through your issues together. What happens when you hook up with a new woman, how do you check her out to find out who she is, way before the bomb goes off? What are you doing just before that bomb goes off? Are you putting a particular spin on this 'bomb' thing or is this maybe a women that you are totally pissing off because you're not giving her whatever she needs? In other words is the 'bomb' just your excuse to leave and not deal? Other than psycho bitches what are you really looking for, what do you need and why that way, and why do you think that isn't happening, what kinds of feelings come up around this?... etc. etc." ie. some kind of questions digging into whatever particular pattern you're stuck in. Nothing? Had to be something going on there on the part of the therapist. If nothing much at all you definitely got ripped off. But if every time they tried to dig in and find out what you were feeling, patterns of action, hidden agendas, etc. - if every time they hit a stone wall you're pretty much back to what I quoted from Elliot.
That's actually one of the first things I try to figure out one way or the other, is how open a patient is to revealing themselves or whether they've got rather stout walls around their problems.

And one thing to Jovancat: It seems more art than science. Too fuzzy for science.

Also to what one or two said about just talking to close friends - yeah sometimes all you have to do is just barf it all out, burn off all that roiling emotional effluent that backs up the system and you're done. If its a serious pattern you're stuck in, it will keep resurfacing again and again until you say 'fuck it, OK I'll deal with this'. or not. "Maybe this is as good as it gets...." (great movie line)

[Aurelia]

YOU are the fuzzy one
Jovan is usually spot on

Science and discovery are linked, silly

Bactrim is not really an antibiotic

leave Capt to his way..he is appreciated

xoA.

[dana]

YOU are the fuzzy one
Jovan is usually spot on

Science and discovery are linked, silly

Bactrim is not really an antibiotic

xoA.

Geez, where do you come up with this stuff?
If psychotherapy was really pure science then all psychotherapists would be doing more or less exactly the same thing because all of that scientific discovery would lead into certain well worn paths. That's not how it works. Its all over the map - behaviorists and cognitive therapists being opposite ends of one spectrum, then throw in all the rest, transpersonal psychology, Jungians, etc. all kinds of totally divergent methods. Even more 'hard science' type stuff like neurophysiology and neurochemistry can lead into some rather 'woo' areas like the 'brain/mind' controversy.

Bactrim - trimethoprim/sulfamethoxasole, one of the most commonly prescribed antibiotics for MRSA.

(I may be getting fuzzy from lack of sleep but not that far off...)

[Captain Goddammit]

I came up from the school of hard knocks, in almost every way.
I figure shit out for myself.
And it's really that simple. The crazy ones are the fun ones. Almost any guy can tell you that. The problem was as simple as me sometimes choosing people above the hot/crazy matrix line, or hanging around too long with ones below the hot/crazy line but firmly in the "fun zone" area. There's a chart for this stuff, that 'rapists tend to disapprove of but it tends to be very accurate in real life.
Now everything is good, thanks to me straightening that out. Not the 'rapist.

[Aurelia]

well Dana, try school before spout !

yes Cpt. you have earned your degrees

xoA.

[dana]

.... firmly in the "fun zone" area. There's a chart for this stuff, that 'rapists tend to disapprove of but it tends to be very accurate in real life.

what kind of chart?
http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson22.html

[dana]

well Dana, try school before spout !

xoA.

I made it through medical school. Have far have you made it? You sound like an idiot.

[Captain Goddammit]

This is must-see material. This relates perfectly to my years of life experience, far better than any 'rapist who doesn't even know me ever did. I'm now in the correct zone, and life is better than ever.

[media]

[tatonka]

This is must-see material. This relates perfectly to my years of life experience, far better than any 'rapist who doesn't even know me ever did. I'm now in the correct zone, and life is better than ever.

[media]

thats a good one .

[kowtow]

I've always loved that video. I favor the "No Go Zone" there are always a lot more opportunities and a lot less competition. It's only me and unjonharley vying for the same ladies.

[Aurelia]

Well Dana , you do not sound like you made it through
I did !
why you persist in stupid is a discredit to the cause of the ethics involved.

A

[dana]

Well Dana , you do not sound like you made it through
I did !
why you persist in stupid is a discredit to the cause of the ethics involved.

A

OK, I'll try a different tack that is less harsh and possibly more useful to you.
You're playing pointless games that are pissing me off. When you play these kinds of games you piss off a lot of other people and create more distance from the folks around you.

What games?
- the insular eplaya cliché game. I am not attacking the Captain or Jovankat and if either feels that I am I'm pretty damn sure they're capable of dealing with it themselves without you muddling in the middle. All you're doing is encouraging a few others to play the same game and leaving a distinct xenophobic cat piss stench on eplaya. The stench pushes away some interesting folks that others might like to hear from.
- pandering to your ego's need to feel smarter and superior to someone. Try looking things up on google before saying something like Bactrim is not an antibiotic.
You made it through what exactly? I've been practicing for over 20 years and am at a clinic right now as I type this.

So snap the fuck out of it!! Spend some time trying to figure out why your ego thinks all of this is going somewhere. People play games because their ego offers some vague pay-off. The pay-off is purely illusory. You'll never be able to take it to the bank.