Nothing Can Be Done Thread.

[Lonesomebri]

This is what I'm talking about.

nothingcanbedone.jpg

[kiboy]

Mr. Natural sez "Twas ever thus"

[Lonesomebri]

I posted this cartoon to make up for the lack of input from the great minds of our time. It's them, their thoughts and actions, just less cartoonish. So odd, the "Nothing Can Be Done" crowd who this thread was created for, once they shut down the "What Is To Be Done" threads with their constant anti-rant rants, poof, gone. Here is their own thread to derail yet nowhere to be found. Only on threads they disagree with (you know, any thread that threatened the powerful or called them into account), in order to side-track. Why is that? Thoughts?

[kiboy]

Those folk you call the "we can't do nothing" did not shut down the "what should we do threads". First of all that hasn't happened. Second of all if it has happened it's because of the unwillingness of the what shall we do folk to take action. No nay sayer can shut them down, all they have is an opinion and it's a sticks and stones thing. When action doesn't happen its due to lack of real commitment on the part of those claiming something should be done.

As a student of history and life I've seen everything I was into come to an end through change. It seems to be a very natural process ultimately. Why does Burning Man have to be the end if it ultimately fails it's 10 principle mission? Others can pick up the thread and begin again somewhere else. "twas ever thus"

[The Rod]

Umm... yeah. The NCBD crown can't actually shut down a "what can we do?" thread as it is up the WCBD crowd to continue the discussion and take action.

But, the harshness and marginalizing language used by the nay-sayers and NCBD folks sure makes a "what can be done?" guy like me hold a lot more hesitation about engaging in a topic of that nature on Eplaya. I have my more immediate friends and community off-line I can have these discussions with. The problem with a bunch of assholes running around is it drives away the people who actually want to have a conversation, a discussion where a topic is explored rather than argued. It's obvious that those types of discussions don't survive very long on Eplaya. Which IMO is a damn shame because here we have a much bigger chunk of the BM community than my off-line circle, increasing the possibilities for actual change than if just me and my camp decide we want to voice some opinions on safari camping and Bmorg corruption...

Advice on lag bolts or building a dome? This is the place.

Actual discussion of BM philosophies and principles and what they mean for us, the event and our community? Absolutely not.

[kiboy]

Well then you make my point. If you consider them bullies and won't stand your ground then you lose. This has always been true and why the strong, right or wrong, prevail. You are the real problem here then. I don't mean that as an insult. I want your input . I'm not afraid of anyone here nor will I allow myself to be bullied on my beliefs.

[Eric]

So odd, the "Nothing Can Be Done" crowd who this thread was created for, once they shut down the "What Is To Be Done" threads with their constant anti-rant rants, poof, gone. Here is their own thread to derail yet nowhere to be found.

Boredom does tend to drive people elsewhere.

[Elderberry]

So odd, the "Nothing Can Be Done" crowd who this thread was created for, once they shut down the "What Is To Be Done" threads with their constant anti-rant rants, poof, gone. Here is their own thread to derail yet nowhere to be found.

Boredom does tend to drive people elsewhere.

Amen

[The Rod]

I try not to think of people as problems... I'm not going to let you bully me into thinking I'm the real problem here!

And really, I don't necessarily think of the negative detractors around as bullies, more like sour old grapes I don't want to hang out with or talk to.

Typically I'm not going to put the effort of typing my thoughts and feelings on a charged subject around here.. I don't judge it worthwhile when the people who respond just want to tell me that I'm wrong. I don't feel bullied into silence, I just have better things to do than talk to walls. I'm glad someone around here actually wants some input... You're not the only one. I've seen a few threads with some juice that actually make it past page one.

The solution might be that any actual discussion has to be boring to keep the Negative Nancies away.

[Lonesomebri]

Boredom, got it, the mods have weighed in. Seems like a shit storm of threads and comments and the only ones bored are the ones saying the comments should dry up 'cause everyone is bored. I wonder if the Black Rock City Hotel and Better Business board is bored with this also. Must not be, seeing as you folks are claiming to be while still running interference. Carry on.

This is like when you put a bird house out and keep checking and finally find what you had set out the structure for, had arrived and made itself comfortable. Welcome NCBD Echo-Chamber Bored guys!!!!!

[Lonesomebri]

Even a blind woman can see better than boring road blocks.

quote-optimism-is-the-faith-that-leads-to-achievement-nothing-can-be-done-without-hope-and-confidence-helen-keller-99933.jpg

[Lonesomebri]

Isn't there some saying about boredom, something you tell children, about how if they are bored it's really just an internal problem, it's their fault because maybe they are boring.........?
Seems like certain spokespersons get bored here when the discussion turns to Plug and Plays, the Bmorg commercializing the Burn, and the like. Carry on.

bored.jpg

[Lonesomebri]

So odd, the "Nothing Can Be Done" crowd who this thread was created for, once they shut down the "What Is To Be Done" threads with their constant anti-rant rants, poof, gone. Here is their own thread to derail yet nowhere to be found.

Boredom does tend to drive people elsewhere.

Amen

Welcome to eplaya.

[GreyCoyote]

Ok, Bri. Lets try it this way.

You have posted a bunch of threads, and for some of what you SAY, I agree with you.

Now, Fearless Leader, tell us what you, individually, and as a leader of the Great New Movement, are going to do. As in what ACTIONS you will take to cure this great evil.

The time for TALK is over. The subjects have been beaten to death. WHAT ARE *YOU* GOING TO DO?

Post a list, please.

You want a result? Results take actions...

[Elderberry]

Ok, Bri. Lets try it this way.

You have posted a bunch of threads, and for some of what you SAY, I agree with you.

Now, Fearless Leader, tell us what you, individually, and as a leader of the Great New Movement, are going to do. As in what ACTIONS you will take to cure this great evil.

The time for TALK is over. The subjects have been beaten to death. WHAT ARE *YOU* GOING TO DO?

Post a list, please.

You want a result? Results take actions...

Waiting with eager anticipation and little expectation.

[kiboy]

Ok, Bri. Lets try it this way.

You have posted a bunch of threads, and for some of what you SAY, I agree with you.

Now, Fearless Leader, tell us what you, individually, and as a leader of the Great New Movement, are going to do. As in what ACTIONS you will take to cure this great evil.

The time for TALK is over. The subjects have been beaten to death. WHAT ARE *YOU* GOING TO DO?

Post a list, please.

You want a result? Results take actions...

I agree with this, however bringing the subject up for debate and forcing it into public discourse is DOING SOMETHING. Not everyone has that particular skill. Others may be more skillful in other areas. I really don't expect a person who is committed to something to be doing everything that needs to be done on the issue. If everyone who's committed does one thing then things likely will change. Again however talk can be very cheap. I would expect someone as passionate as Bri would be taking a leadership role in all this but maybe he doesn't have the skills, time, or racehorses for that.

[Elderberry]

Ok, Bri. Lets try it this way.

You have posted a bunch of threads, and for some of what you SAY, I agree with you.

Now, Fearless Leader, tell us what you, individually, and as a leader of the Great New Movement, are going to do. As in what ACTIONS you will take to cure this great evil.

The time for TALK is over. The subjects have been beaten to death. WHAT ARE *YOU* GOING TO DO?

Post a list, please.

You want a result? Results take actions...

I agree with this, however bringing the subject up for debate and forcing it into public discourse is DOING SOMETHING. Not everyone has that particular skill. Others may be more skillful in other areas. I really don't expect a person who is committed to something to be doing everything that needs to be done on the issue. If everyone who's committed does one thing then things likely will change. Again however talk can be very cheap. I would expect someone as passionate as Bri would be taking a leadership role in all this but maybe he doesn't have the skills, time, or racehorses for that.

Being a rabble-rouser isn't a skill.

Any two year old knows how to throw tantrums and make a lot of noise.

Not much good comes from either.

[kiboy]

But keeping your mouth shut and burying your head in the sand is?

[Elderberry]

But keeping your mouth shut and burying your head in the sand is?

Based on the dialog comments in some of these posts, it actually might be better.

[forty_eight]

how to rant on eplaya: the primer ... soon to be available on amazon.

i'll be waiting, lol

[kiboy]

But keeping your mouth shut and burying your head in the sand is?

Based on the dialog comments in some of these posts, it actually might be better.

For you maybe. I'd rather hear peoples views and concerns and then let them be discussed in open forum. I think that's what forums are for right, discussion,comments, rants etc?

[GreyCoyote]

The discussion part IMHO has been rather nicely beaten to death. Now if there is an action item list to be put forward then I am all ears.

I AGREE with many of Bri's points. I do NOT agree on the need to further flog a dead horse. Chalk it up to being an engineer at heart.

The single most important lesson to come out of the space program is you have to have answers, and a workable solution, before the clock runs out.

There can be paralysis in analysis. Inaction can be fatal, especially when it divides the community. And that is a choice. If you spend time beyond that reasonably needed to evaluate the problem, then you are simply dithering, and nobody wins.

[Eric]

For you maybe. I'd rather hear peoples views and concerns and then let them be discussed in open forum. I think that's what forums are for right, discussion,comments, rants etc?

That's absolutely what forums are for, except for some reason people seem to think having those discussions on this forum is going to lead to changes in the way the event runs. While I'm sure some of the Org pops in from time to time to get a read on hot-button issues, they tend to talk in-house to come up with their solutions, regardless of how good or bad we the ticket-buyers think those solutions may be.

I've been on ePlaya since 2003, there hasn't been a single year I can remember that there hasn't been some "hot topic" that had people red-faced and screaming, and that was the Absolute End of the event. Before the sell-outs started there were raging arguments on how art grants were distributed (anyone remember BORG2?), on how the creator of the Temple was chosen (why does David Best always get to do it), on how much The Six Owners were getting paid, on volunteers, on camp placement, on changes in the rules, on the introduction of the principles... since the sell-out it's been on ticket scarcity, on who gets tickets, on how tickets get distributed, now on turnkey camps (and if they're getting placed & distributed tickets - if we weren't selling out, I have a feeling they wouldn't be this years Destroyer Of Burning Man).

That is where my "bored" comment comes from - every year we hear people complain about what they see as problems, but the only time I've ever seen some action from those complaints is BORG2 in 2005, which actually fundraised & gave grants to artists they thought were being overlooked. They disappeared by 2006. It's easy to create threads & complain, and to say that people who disagree with you are "shutting down discussions"; it's much harder to actually step up to the plate and do something.

All I'm hearing now on all these multitudinous threads is the same thing as someone coming on here and telling us they have a great idea for a theme camp for someone else to create - ie: "I don't like this, you fix it". If you read Jack Rabbit Speaks, you know that the BMorg is looking into turnkeys. Now is the time to step up.

And, we’d appreciate your formal input. If you have had a first hand experience with a Turnkey camp – either as a producer, a staff member, a participant or as a community member, please let us know about your experience through our feedback form.

We know that if we all work together as a community, we can find a way to stay true to Radical Inclusion without undermining the rest of the Ten Principles. This community has faced similar challenges throughout its history, and this probably won't be the last one. Indeed, our society would not be a real community if such challenges did not occur.

[kiboy]

For you maybe. I'd rather hear peoples views and concerns and then let them be discussed in open forum. I think that's what forums are for right, discussion,comments, rants etc?

That's absolutely what forums are for, except for some reason people seem to think having those discussions on this forum is going to lead to changes in the way the event runs. While I'm sure some of the Org pops in from time to time to get a read on hot-button issues, they tend to talk in-house to come up with their solutions, regardless of how good or bad we the ticket-buyers think those solutions may be.

I've been on ePlaya since 2003, there hasn't been a single year I can remember that there hasn't been some "hot topic" that had people red-faced and screaming, and that was the Absolute End of the event. Before the sell-outs started there were raging arguments on how art grants were distributed (anyone remember BORG2?), on how the creator of the Temple was chosen (why does David Best always get to do it), on how much The Six Owners were getting paid, on volunteers, on camp placement, on changes in the rules, on the introduction of the principles... since the sell-out it's been on ticket scarcity, on who gets tickets, on how tickets get distributed, now on turnkey camps (and if they're getting placed & distributed tickets - if we weren't selling out, I have a feeling they wouldn't be this years Destroyer Of Burning Man).

That is where my "bored" comment comes from - every year we hear people complain about what they see as problems, but the only time I've ever seen some action from those complaints is BORG2 in 2005, which actually fundraised & gave grants to artists they thought were being overlooked. They disappeared by 2006. It's easy to create threads & complain, and to say that people who disagree with you are "shutting down discussions"; it's much harder to actually step up to the plate and do something.

All I'm hearing now on all these multitudinous threads is the same thing as someone coming on here and telling us they have a great idea for a theme camp for someone else to create - ie: "I don't like this, you fix it". If you read Jack Rabbit Speaks, you know that the BMorg is looking into turnkeys. Now is the time to step up.

And, we’d appreciate your formal input. If you have had a first hand experience with a Turnkey camp – either as a producer, a staff member, a participant or as a community member, please let us know about your experience through our feedback form.

We know that if we all work together as a community, we can find a way to stay true to Radical Inclusion without undermining the rest of the Ten Principles. This community has faced similar challenges throughout its history, and this probably won't be the last one. Indeed, our society would not be a real community if such challenges did not occur.

Well who's doing the stepping up then? Because my issue of Jackrabbit Speaks mentioned that the discussion they'd been hearing was getting through to management. I didn't go to the 2014 burn so I have no voice outside of these discussions. I can't give feedback via formal input as far as I know. I still like to know what's going on and frankly I wouldn't if I hadn't joined up here or reddit or whatever. I for one am glad that people rant. If they go too far I quit listening but I'd still rather hear about it than silence. I've listened just as hard to those who said this is a non issue, until they start telling everyone else to shut up about it. Then I have to wonder what their issue is. Because hey if they don't want to hear about it they don't have to post in the thread. Right?

[some seeing eye]

The org deals with a huge set of constraints we do not see. But I have found a thoughtful email on a specific topic to the right department or individual has an impact. Especially so, if as a result, the org reaches out with a specific question you can answer.

Eplaya does have value to individuals new to the event. And sometimes we engage in horseplay to amuse ourselves between the useful advice we give for free.

If you volunteer for a department, you are going to have more credibility with that department than a random internet person would have. There are also a whole series of message boards specific to departments and the departments use them.

And everyone has until October 15 to fill out the complaint and suggestion form.

[kiboy]

Everyone? I didn't attend this year. Can I still give an opinion by Oct 15? According to what I've read no. They want feedback from people who were there this year.

If I talk about this issue in the media it's going to add up if it gets talking about by a lot of folk and from what I've seen it has and that is why the Borg is paying attention. I've read a lot of articles and chats about this now and eplaya is only one voice in the talk.

[The Rod]

Right. If people start talking about shit they don't like there's a chance it *might* get heard. When there's a shit-storm on Eplaya someone somewhere hears about it.

Even if Eplaya isn't the place to lodge your official feedback, there are some avenues that may be more direct.

I, personally would like to see Eplaya as a place where some (more?) of this stuff could be discussed before turning it into official feedback. I like open discussion. I live in a bubble and the only tube to the outside world is the internet. I can rant and rave with my friends, but we mostly agree on all this shit. It's good for me to have people disagreeing with me to a point. It helps me to form an objective opinion as opposed to one that is biased and sensational. However, I get turned off when it goes from a discussion to an argument to an inter-webz logical-fallacy pissing match.

Yeah, I feel so sorry for the poor poor moderators ho have no choice but wade through topic upon topic of dead horses. But you know what? If the horse was really, truly dead then no one would be talking about it. The only really dead horse around here is the claim that someones horse is dead.

[kiboy]

I, personally would like to see Eplaya as a place where some (more?) of this stuff could be discussed before turning it into official feedback. I like open discussion. I live in a bubble and the only tube to the outside world is the internet. I can rant and rave with my friends, but we mostly agree on all this shit. It's good for me to have people disagreeing with me to a point. It helps me to form an objective opinion as opposed to one that is biased and sensational. However, I get turned off when it goes from a discussion to an argument to an inter-webz logical-fallacy pissing match.

this^

[Eric]

Everyone? I didn't attend this year. Can I still give an opinion by Oct 15? According to what I've read no. They want feedback from people who were there this year.

While I can see how any one of us can form an opinion on something we only know about through second hand sources, it is not going to have the same weight as someone who has an actual first-hand experience to report. I can complain to, say, the SF Giants about the traffic caused by the games at AT&T park, but I only know about those problems through the news & people complaining on facebook (note: I have no idea if there are any traffic problems there). I have no actual experience with them, so my opinions are based on my assumptions about what is happening, not personal experience.

I was at the Burn this year, but I'm not offering an opinion to the Org on the turnkey camps either - I had zero interactions with them, and, as far as I was affected by them at the event, they didn't exist. I don't have anything of actual use to offer. I have opinions on the camps, but until they affect me in some way, what do I really have to say about them? "How dare this thing that didn't impinge on my Burn at all, and that I didn't notice until you asked, exist?" Someone who did experience them is going to have something completely different to say about them, based on their actual physical interactions, for good or bad.

My only physical experience with a turnkey was back in the days when they were still Burning Mans dirty secret (2011), when our newspaper camped with one (alas, only on the workers side). I saw nothing that matched any of the complaints I've heard this year, the workers were all having a great time, the rich-folk were volunteering for departments every day, the camp was completely green on the MOOP map. That was also three years ago - it doesn't have anything to do with how the camps worked this year.

[kiboy]

I fully understand why they want this years participants feedback.

However if I want to educate myself and discuss this and form an opinion about what the man is like now places like this are it for me. So I say lets discuss it. Frankly this place is pretty dead most of the time anyway. Lets chat. I mean how much time can you spend talking about how drunk you got?