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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:16 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:right..so we match Saddam's brutality with some of our own....
You know what's Ironic is how the U.S. has killed as many as Sadam in less time.

Oh yeah......uuummmm.....


Looks like Falujah is having trouble again. I thought Falujah was under control. :lol: :? :shock:

I think it will get to the point where the U.S. is gonna get a can of fucking woop ass sometime soon. (where did the British go?)
right.....it's another case of the old Vietnam era logic of "let's destroy the village to save it from communism"

so is wiping out 100,000 people anyway to establish democracy and global safety? I'm sure Saddam had his reasons too, ours are just better than his. right
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Post by Simply Joel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:20 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:right..so we match Saddam's brutality with some of our own....
You know what's Ironic is how the U.S. has killed as many as Sadam in less time.
Oh yeah......uuummmm.....
Looks like Falujah is having trouble again. I thought Falujah was under control. :lol: :? :shock:
I think it will get to the point where the U.S. is gonna get a can of fucking woop ass sometime soon. (where did the British go?)
i would ask for a cite, yet i already know one would not be forthcoming.

because my mother taught me to only speak when i had something nice to say... i must remain speechless.

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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:26 pm

Simply Joel wrote:
i would ask for a cite, yet i already know one would not be forthcoming.

because my mother taught me to only speak when i had something nice to say... i must remain speechless.
Man Joel, I reall wish you could get more specific or at least have a little more detail. not a bunch of detail but some kinda indication of what you're talking about :ie, cites? about what?
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Post by Simply Joel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:33 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:
i would ask for a cite, yet i already know one would not be forthcoming.

because my mother taught me to only speak when i had something nice to say... i must remain speechless.
Man Joel, I reall wish you could get more specific or at least have a little more detail. not a bunch of detail but some kinda indication of what you're talking about :ie, cites? about what?
DVD Burner wrote: You know what's Ironic is how the U.S. has killed as many as Sadam in less time.
back the above statement with some data or a cite.

specific enough?
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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:35 pm

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:41 pm

Rules of War Broken in Falluja Assault -Amnesty International
by sources Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 at 6:56 AM

LONDON (Reuters) - The rules of war protecting civilians and wounded combatants have been broken by both sides in the week-long assault on the Iraqi city of Falluja, the human rights group Amnesty International said on Monday.



The London-based group, which gave examples of what it said were breaches of the rules by both U.S. troops and insurgents, demanded that all violations be investigated and those responsible brought to justice.

Not only had the attacking U.S. and Iraqi troops failed to take the necessary steps to ensure that non-combatants did not come under fire, but insurgents had also abused flags of truce and fired indiscriminately.

"Amnesty International fears that civilians have been killed, in contravention of international humanitarian law, as a result of failure by parties to the fighting to take necessary precautions to protect non-combatants," Amnesty said.

Amnesty said 20 Iraqi medical staff and dozens of other civilians were killed when a missile hit a Falluja clinic on Nov. 9, according to a doctor who survived the strike -- though it was not known who fired the missile.

On the same day a 9-year-old boy bled to death after being hit in the stomach by shrapnel. Unable to take him to hospital because of the fighting, his parents buried him in their garden.

Elsewhere a woman and her three daughters were reported killed when their house was bombed, Amnesty said.

It also said a British television program, Channel Four News, broadcast footage on Nov. 11 that appeared to show an American soldier firing a shot in the direction of a wounded insurgent behind a wall and then commenting "he's gone."

"Under international humanitarian law the U.S. forces have an obligation to protect fighters hors de combat. Amnesty International calls on the U.S. authorities to investigate this incident immediately," the human rights watchdog said.

It said insurgents were also reported to have violated international humanitarian law.

WHITE FLAG A RUSE

"In one incident, some Iraqis are reported to have come out of a building waving a white flag. When a Marine approached this group, insurgents opened fire on the Marines from different directions."

A U.S. military official in Iraq (news - web sites) also accused insurgents of storing weapons in mosques and schools. Insurgents were reported to be firing from a mosque on Nov. 10, Amnesty said.

"All violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law must be investigated and those responsible for unlawful attacks, including deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the killing of injured persons must be brought to justice," it added.

Although half the city's civilian population was reported to have left the city before the assault began, the tens of thousands left behind were in dire straits, it said. Falluja's normal population is believed to be about 300,000.

"There are concerns that a humanitarian crisis is looming with acute shortages of food, water, medicine and with no electricity. There are also many wounded people who could not receive medical care because of the fighting," it added.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=6813303

LONDON, Nov 15 (AFP) - Human rights watchdog Amnesty International said on Monday it was deeply concerned the rules of war designed to protect civilians and combatants have been violated in the Iraqi town of Fallujah.

"Amnesty International fears that civilians have been killed, in contravention of international humanitarian law, as a result of failure by parties to the fighting to take necessary precautions to protect non-combatants," the London-based group said in a report on its website.

"We are not getting the full picture of what is going on in Fallujah," Amnesty spokeswoman Nicole Choueiry told AFP on Monday.

"Some clarification needs to be made, not only to Amnesty but to the whole world because no one has a clear picture of what is going on.

"It's really unclear whether they have been abiding by (international law) or not, but there are increasingly worrying reports in the media," Choueiry said.

"There are increasing reports that civilians have died and we have been asking for clarifications as to the rules of engagement and of the total civilian casualties," she said.

"There are also worrying reports about the insurgents using civilian areas or civilian targets to lure in combatants."

In one incident, some Iraqis are reported to have come out of a building waving a white flag, Amnesty said. When a US Marine approached this group, insurgents opened fire from different directions.

Twenty Iraqi medical staff and dozens of other civilians were killed when a missile hit a clinic on November 9, according to reports from a doctor who survived the strike, the group said.

On November 11 a British television programme, Channel Four News, broadcast footage in which a US soldier appeared to have fired one shot in the direction of a wounded insurgent who was off screen.

The soldier then walked away and said "he's gone", Amnesty said.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=33760
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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:42 pm

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:43 pm

Rana Obeidy was walking home with her brother when she and her brother (who died) were shot by US soldiers.
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_ ... me=album18
---
She lays dazed in the crowded hospital room, languidly waving her bruised arm at the flies. Her shins, shattered by bullets from US soldiers when they fired through the front door of her house, are both covered by casts. Small plastic drainage backs filled with red fluid sit upon her abdomen, where she took shrapnel from another bullet.

Fatima Harouz, 12 years old, lives in Latifiya, a city just south of Baghdad. Just three days ago soldiers attacked her home. Her mother, standing with us says, “They attacked our home and there weren’t even any resistance fighters in our area.” Her brother was shot and killed, and his wife was wounded as their home was ransacked by soldiers. “Before they left, they killed all of our chickens,” added Fatima’s mother, her eyes a mixture of fear, shock and rage.

A doctor standing with us, after listening to Fatima’s mother tell their story, looks at me and sternly asks, “This is the freedom…in their Disney Land are there kids just like this?”

Another young woman, Rana Obeidy, was walking home with her brother two nights ago. She assumes the soldiers shot her and her brother because he was carrying a bottle of soda. This happened in Baghdad. She has a chest wound where a bullet grazed her, unlike her little brother who is dead.

Laying in a bed near Rana is Hanna, 14 years old. She has a gash on her right leg from the bullet of a US soldier. Her family was in a taxi in Baghdad this morning which was driving near a US patrol when a soldier opened fire on the car.

Her father’s shirt is spotted with blood from his head which was wounded when the taxi crashed.

In another room a small boy from Fallujah lays on his stomach. Shrapnel from a grenade thrown into their home by a US soldier entered his body through his back, and implanted near his kidney.

An operation successfully removed the shrapnel. His father was killed by what his mother called, “the haphazard shooting of the Americans.” The boy, Amin, lies in his bed vacillating between crying with pain and playing with is toy car.

It’s one case after another of people from Baghdad, Fallujah, Latifiya, Balad, Ramadi, Samarra, Baquba…from all over Iraq, who have been injured by the heavy-handed tactics of American soldiers fighting a no-win guerilla war spawned from an illegal invasion based on lies. Their barbaric acts of retaliation have become the daily reality for Iraqis, who continue to take the brunt of the frustration and rage of the soldiers.

Out in front of the hospital three Humvees pull up as soldiers alert the hospital staff that some of the wounded from outside of Fallujah will be brought there. One of the staff begins to yell at the soldier who is doing the talking, while a soldier manning a machine gun atop a Humvee with his face completely covered by an olive balaclava and goggles looks on.

“We don’t need you here! Get the fuck out of here! Bring back Saddam! Even he was better than you animals! We don’t want to die by your hands, so get out of here! We can take care of our own people!”

The translator with the soldiers does not translate this. Instead he watches with a face of stone.

The survivors of those killed and wounded by the US military in Iraq, as well as those who care for them, are left with feelings of bitter anguish, grief, rage and vengeance.

This afternoon at a small, but busy supply center set up in Baghdad to distribute goods to refugees from Fallujah, the stories the haggard survivors are telling are nearly unimaginable.

“They kicked all the journalists out of Fallujah so they could do whatever they want,” says Kassem Mohammed Ahmed, who just escaped from Fallujah three days ago, “The first thing they did is they bombed the hospitals because that is where the wounded have to go. Now we see that wounded people are in the street and the soldiers are rolling over them with tanks. This happened so many times. What you see on the TV is nothing-that is just one camera. What you cannot see is so much.”

While Kassem speaks of the television footage, there are also stories of soldiers not discriminating between civilians and resistance fighters.

Another man, Abdul Razaq Ismail arrived from Fallujah last week.

While distributing supplies to other refugees he says, “There are dead bodies on the ground and nobody can bury them. The Americans are dropping some of the bodies into the Euphrates River near Fallujah. They are pulling the bodies with tanks and leaving them at the soccer stadium.”

Nearby is another man in tears as he listens, nodding his head. He can’t stop crying, but after a little while says he wants to talk to us.

“They bombed my neighborhood and we used car jacks to raise the blocks of concrete to get dead children out from under them.”

Another refugee, Abu Sabah, an older man wearing a torn shirt and dusty pants tells of how he escaped with his family while soldiers shot bullets over their heads, but killed his cousin.

“They used these weird bombs that put up smoke like a mushroom cloud,” he said, having just arrived yesterday, “Then small pieces fell from the air with long tails of smoke behind them. These exploded on the ground with large fires that burnt for half an hour. They used these near the train tracks. You could hear these dropped from a large airplane and the bombs were the size of a tank. When anyone touched those fires, their body burned for hours.”

The comparison of Iraq to Vietnam is becoming more valid by the day here.

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archiv ... 2.php#more
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Post by Simply Joel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:44 pm

cowboyangel wrote:http://iraqbodycount.net/
yet, you don't have a number of people Saddam H killed over the past so many decades... you have half the story.
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Post by Simply Joel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:45 pm

and before some pissing contest begins, you made the statement, please back it up with cites and/or facts... and to up the anty, make them credible cites.
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:52 pm

cowboyangel wrote:http://iraqbodycount.net/
CA Joel cant read.

I posted the same link months ago.
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Post by Rob the Wop » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:03 pm

Saddam's friendly governmental policies-

http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2002/iq350a.pdf

Download the report. Research done by two different French human rights groups on the Arabization policies and Kurdish body count.

The answer is NO.

We are not even remotely close to what Saddam has done.
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Post by Rob the Wop » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:05 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:http://iraqbodycount.net/
CA Joel cant read.

I posted the same link months ago.
Your statement that is called into question is the one that we have killed more than Saddam. This is false. To compare them, you must have the data on BOTH body counts- not just one.
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:11 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:http://iraqbodycount.net/
CA Joel cant read.

I posted the same link months ago.
Your statement that is called into question is the one that we have killed more than Saddam. This is false. To compare them, you must have the data on BOTH body counts- not just one.
As usual you are absolutly right Rob.

There's only a strong possibillity that the U.S. has only killed about or more than Half of what Sadam has in about a year. Give or take a few Tens or hundreds of thousands. That's only an estimate/guesstamate.



That better. :lol:
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:21 pm

Wholy shit. Thomas Frank is on the daily show.

Thomas Frank = "what's the matter with Kansas?"
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Post by cowboyangel » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:28 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:Saddam's friendly governmental policies-

http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2002/iq350a.pdf

Download the report. Research done by two different French human rights groups on the Arabization policies and Kurdish body count.

The answer is NO.

We are not even remotely close to what Saddam has done.
I'd say the US incinerating 60,000 old men, women and children in 1 second in one place 59 years ago beats the fuck out of anything Saddam ever did...



...the place.....Hiroshima
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Post by Rob the Wop » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:58 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
Rob the Wop wrote:Saddam's friendly governmental policies-

http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2002/iq350a.pdf

Download the report. Research done by two different French human rights groups on the Arabization policies and Kurdish body count.

The answer is NO.

We are not even remotely close to what Saddam has done.
I'd say the US incinerating 60,000 old men, women and children in 1 second in one place 59 years ago beats the fuck out of anything Saddam ever did...



...the place.....Hiroshima
Sssssooooo-
if you want to deviate from the specific statement made-
and deal with past history-
I trump you with the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphates.
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Post by cowboyangel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:07 am

well good, but the point I make refers to the US of A always placing itself on the proverbial pedestal of righteous behaviour......we probably exterminated up to 3 million people during the Vietnam conflict. for another Howard Zinn has written an entire history chronicling US Imperial abuses...the history is fairly recent .....
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:59 am

Like he still has any credibillity.


Powell Says Iran Is Pursuing Bomb

Evidence Cited of Effort to Adapt Missile

By Robin Wright and Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, November 18, 2004; Page A01


SANTIAGO, Chile, Nov. 17 -- The United States has intelligence that Iran is working to adapt missiles to deliver a nuclear weapon, further evidence that the Islamic republic is determined to acquire a nuclear bomb, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said Wednesday.
Separately, an Iranian opposition exile group charged in Paris that Iran is enriching uranium at a secret military facility unknown to U.N. weapons inspectors. Iran has denied seeking to build nuclear weapons.
"I have seen some information that would suggest that they have been actively working on delivery systems. . . . You don't have a weapon until you put it in something that can deliver a weapon," Powell told reporters traveling with him to Chile for an Asia-Pacific economic summit. "I'm not talking about uranium or fissile material or the warhead; I'm talking about what one does with a warhead."
Powell's comments came just three days after an agreement between Iran and three European countries -- Britain, France and Germany -- designed to limit Tehran's ability to divert its peaceful nuclear energy program for military use. The primary focus of the deal, accepted by Iran on Sunday and due to go into effect Nov. 22, is a stipulation that Iran indefinitely suspend its uranium enrichment program.
The issue of adapting a missile is separate from the question of enriching uranium for use in a weapon.
"I'm talking about information that says they not only have these missiles, but I am aware of information that suggests that they were working hard as to how to put the two together," Powell said, referring to the process of matching warheads to missiles. He spoke to reporters during a refueling stop in Manaus, Brazil.
"There is no doubt in my mind -- and it's fairly straightforward from what we've been saying for years -- that they have been interested in a nuclear weapon that has utility, meaning that it is something they would be able to deliver, not just something that sits there," Powell said.
Iran has long been known to have a missile program, while denying that it was seeking a nuclear bomb. Powell seemed to be suggesting that efforts not previously disclosed were underway to arm missiles with nuclear warheads.
Joseph Cirincione, director of the Non-Proliferation Project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said Powell's remarks indicated that Iran was trying to master the difficult technology of reducing the size of a nuclear warhead to fit on a ballistic missile.
"Powell appears to be saying the Iranians are working very hard on this capability," Cirincione said. He said Powell's comments were striking because the International Atomic Energy Agency said this week that it had not seen any information that Iran had conducted weapons-related work.
In a 32-page report, IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei wrote that "all the declared nuclear material in Iran has been accounted for, and therefore such material is not diverted to prohibited activities," such as weapons programs. But ElBaradei said that he could not rule out the possibility that Iran was conducting a clandestine nuclear weapons program.
Powell also told reporters that the United States had not decided what action to take following Sunday's agreement. The Bush administration had insisted that Iran's past violations warranted taking the matter to the U.N. Security Council.
Powell said the United States would monitor verification efforts "with necessary and deserved caution because for 20 years the Iranians have been trying to hide things from the international community."
Meanwhile, in Paris, the exile group charged that Iran was still enriching uranium and would continue to do so despite the pledge made Sunday to European foreign ministers. The group, the National Council for Resistance in Iran, or NCRI, also claimed that Iran received blueprints for a Chinese-made bomb in the mid-1990s from the global nuclear technology network led by the Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan. The Khan network sold the same type of bomb blueprint to Libya, which has since renounced its nuclear ambitions.
Mohammad Mohaddessin, chairman of the foreign affairs committee of the Paris-based NCRI, told reporters at a news conference that the Khan network delivered to the Iranians a small quantity of highly enriched uranium that could be used in making a bomb. But he said the amount was probably too small for use in a weapon.
The NCRI is the political wing of the People's Mujahedeen organization, which the State Department has labeled a terrorist organization. The NCRI helped expose Iran's nuclear ambitions in 2002 by disclosing the location of the government's secret uranium enrichment facility at Natanz. But many of its subsequent assertions about the program have proven inaccurate.

On Wednesday, Mohaddessin used satellite photos to pinpoint what he said was the new facility, inside a 60-acre complex in the northeast part of Tehran known as the Center for the Development of Advanced Defense Technology. The group said that the site also houses Iranian chemical and biological weapons programs and that uranium enrichment began there a year and a half ago, to replace a nearby facility that was dismantled in March ahead of a visit by a U.N. inspections team.
The group gave no evidence for its claims, but Mohaddessin said, "Our sources were 100 percent sure about their intelligence." He and other group members said the NCRI relies on human sources, including scientists and other people working in the facilities and locals who might live near the facilities and see suspicious activities.
The IAEA, the U.N. nuclear monitoring body, had no immediate comment on the claims but said it took all such reports seriously.
The agency has no information to support the NCRI claims, according to Western diplomats with knowledge of the U.N. body's investigations of Iran.
Some diplomats and arms control experts privately discounted the Iranian group's latest claim, saying it appeared designed to undermine the deal that the Tehran government signed with Britain, France and Germany. In Tehran on Wednesday, Iranian officials said they considered the enrichment suspension temporary and contingent upon a favorable decision at the IAEA meeting next week and on quick progress in talks next month on long-term guarantees that Iran can apply nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.
Richburg reported from Paris. Staff writers Glenn Kessler and Dafna Linzer in Washington contributed to this report.
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:23 am

cowboyangel wrote:
Rob the Wop wrote:Saddam's friendly governmental policies-

http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2002/iq350a.pdf

Download the report. Research done by two different French human rights groups on the Arabization policies and Kurdish body count.

The answer is NO.

We are not even remotely close to what Saddam has done.
I'd say the US incinerating 60,000 old men, women and children in 1 second in one place 59 years ago beats the fuck out of anything Saddam ever did...



...the place.....Hiroshima
come on, DVD, CA... give the readers a George W Bush is to blame on all of the above, i know you have it in you.

if you want to self-flaggelate about the USA becoming a superpower and all the ramifications therein...

i'll pass on whipping myself into a frenzy.
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:09 am

I underlined points I found most important, yet don't reflect my position.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 18, 2004

Iraq at the Tipping Point
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

CAMP FALLUJA, Iraq

Every time I visit Iraq, I leave asking myself the same question: If you total up all the positives and negatives, where does the balance come out? I'd say the score is still 4 to 4. We can still emerge with a decent outcome. And the whole thing could still end very badly. There's only one thing one can say for sure today: you won't need to wait much longer for the tipping point. Either the elections for a new governing body happen by the end of January, as scheduled, and the rout of Saddam loyalists in Falluja is consolidated and extended throughout the Sunni triangle, or not. If it's the former, there are still myriad challenges ahead, but you can be somewhat hopeful. If it's the latter, we've got a total fiasco on our hands.

I came out to the Falluja front in a small press pool accompanying the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, who flew in to inspect the toughest problems in Iraq firsthand. Most of the fighting in Falluja was over by the time we arrived at this headquarters compound, although the tom-tom beat of 155-millimeter howitzers, still pumping rounds into the city, was constant. Here are the questions I came with and the answers I took away:

How important is taking Falluja? Huge. Falluja was to the Iraqi insurgency what Afghanistan was to Osama bin Laden. It was the safe haven where militants could, with total impunity, plan operations, stockpile weapons and connect the suicide bombers from abroad with their Iraqi handlers. That's gone. One arms cache alone found here had 49,000 pieces of ordnance, ranging from mortars to ammo rounds. Another arms cache blown up last week kept exploding for 45 minutes after it was hit, a senior U.S. officer said.

What happens next in Falluja? The plan is for Iraqi Army, police and National Guard units to move in, restore order and hold the place so the insurgents can't retake it and voting can be conducted in January. Whether the Iraqi Army can do that is unclear. Don't believe any of the big numbers that people in Washington throw around about how many Iraqi security people we have trained. Those numbers are meaningless.

The reality is this: Where you have individual Iraqi police, National Guard and Army commanders who have bravely stepped forward to serve the new Iraq and are willing to lead - despite intimidation efforts by insurgents - you have effective units. Where you don't have committed Iraqi leaders, all you have are Iraqi men collecting paychecks who will flee at the first sign of danger. The good news: there are pockets of Iraqi leaders emerging throughout the Army and police. The bad news: there are still way too few of them.

Then do we have enough U.S. troops? No way. U.S. commanders are constantly having to make hard choices between deploying troops to quell a firefight in one place or using them to prevent one from breaking out in another. With two months before elections and the campaign about to start, Iraq remains highly insecure. And with most aid workers having pulled out, U.S. forces have to do everything. Units of the First Cavalry in Baghdad might be fighting militants in Sadr City in the morning, dealing with sewage problems in the afternoon and teaching democracy in the evening. Some of these young soldiers already have three Purple Hearts from having survived that many grenade attacks in Baghdad.

What have we learned from the many insurgents captured in Falluja? A vast majority are Iraqi Sunnis, with only a few foreign fighters. This is an Iraqi Sunni rebellion, but a senior Iraqi official told me that they had discovered Saddam loyalists who were using Aleppo, Syria, to regroup and plan operations.

Bottom line? Iraq is a country still on life support, and U.S. troops are the artificial lungs and heart. At the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit in Babil Province, which I visited, 211 marines have been injured in fighting in the past few months. But 180 of them insisted on returning to duty after being injured. U.S. forces still have a strong will to win.

But another thing remains impressively strong: The insurgents will go to any lengths to intimidate Iraqis away from joining the new government. Too many people, from cleaning women to deputy ministers, are being shot. The insurgents' strategy is intimidation. The U.S. strategy is Iraqification. This is the struggle - and the intimidators are doing way too well. Without a secure environment in which its new leadership can be elected and comfortably operate, Iraq will never be able to breathe on its own, and U.S. troops will have to be here forever.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:07 am

William F. Buckley Jr.

WHEE TIME!

So it will be Condoleezza Rice. We must deny the temptation to ruffles and flourishes which, heaven knows, one might revel in for a good hour. A woman! An African-American! An academic! Who had a high post at a tough, competitive major university! And -- mirabile dictu -- a conservative!

OK, slide by that and concentrate on the theoretical and historical challenges she faces. Some of these she had a role in creating; some, she just bumped into.

Begin with Iraq. Tony Blair was just in town, injecting great drafts of high-octane enthusiasm for the challenge of bringing democracy to the Arab states. In passing, we need to acknowledge Blair as a high presence on the historical scene. The stand he has taken is not popular with his own political party, but he reckons to run on his association with President Bush's crusade, and to win re-election next spring. It has to be dismaying when a major European figure makes plans that can succeed or fail according as 2,000 or 3,000 insurgents do or don't succeed in aborting the democratic enterprise in Iraq. But he is surely doing the right thing.

Condoleezza Rice isn't going to win or lose in the next six months. President Bush has not brought in a specialist whose credentials get validated or found spurious in 90 days. He has personal knowledge of how she winds in and out of critical decisions, and he trusts her judgment and seeks her advice.

She identifies with the optimism of Tony Blair on the general thesis that the West should encourage the growth of democracy in the Arab states. The general feeling at the moment, notwithstanding the proliferation of insurgents north, south, east and west, is that we are headed in the right direction and that huge lessons have been learned from the experience of Afghanistan, where women, of all people, wound their way to the polls and registered their vote. The distance between the high-water mark of the Taliban and the democratic exercise in Afghanistan is little more than three years -- a fleck of time in the sweep of history. But Blair, Bush and Rice see it as a fleck in the sky that becomes a galaxy.

Political movements at a number of levels are in high motion. Arafat is dead. Can that mortality be celebrated by a renunciation of terrorism? Can a Bush-Rice team galvanize the strength of purpose needed to persuade the Palestinian populace to simply abandon the larger claim to the reconquest of Israel and generate a resilient state whose leaders are more convincingly elected by democratic means than by Yasser Arafat?

The tremors of change and challenge are felt at many levels. The CIA is undergoing major convulsions as old hands deny the acceptability of new concepts of purpose and management. Two or three senior officers are resigning, and apart from the loss of their services to their country, we need to celebrate that option: the glorious option of resigning. Nobody resigned from service to Stalin or Hitler. There is simultaneously the tradition of staying in to stand by the leader. Colin Powell did that, and leaves now after a reasonable period of identifying with a leader qua leader, which is different from the leader whose policies he always endorsed.

At a third level we have the phenomenon of U.S. soldiers who are being reprimanded and fined, and, the news tells us, here and there to face court-martial, for failure to carry out orders in military circumstances. Such are the seeds of revolt. This is not going to happen to the American enterprise. The United States is too experienced and too proud to move toward anarchy, which always produces the autocrat or the despot.

So great ventures, democratic in composition, are struggling for historical affirmation. They are animated, ultimately, by the transcendent human ambition, which is to live as free as possible in a world in which so many claims are made on us.

COPYRIGHT 2004 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:06 pm

what is a truck from Texas with texas registration stickers doing in fallujah?
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Post by Rian Jackson » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:10 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:
Rob the Wop wrote:Saddam's friendly governmental policies-

http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2002/iq350a.pdf

Download the report. Research done by two different French human rights groups on the Arabization policies and Kurdish body count.

The answer is NO.

We are not even remotely close to what Saddam has done.
I'd say the US incinerating 60,000 old men, women and children in 1 second in one place 59 years ago beats the fuck out of anything Saddam ever did...



...the place.....Hiroshima
Sssssooooo-
if you want to deviate from the specific statement made-
and deal with past history-
I trump you with the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphates.
yeah?? well, god and the great flood! so there!
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:12 pm

DVD Burner wrote:what is a truck from Texas with texas registration stickers doing in fallujah?
cite-seeing?

(pun intended)
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:23 pm

Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:what is a truck from Texas with texas registration stickers doing in fallujah?
cite-seeing?

(pun intended)
Yeah I tried to find a site to state about these claims that were broadcasted on CNN but could'nt find any as of yet.

This truck according to CNN was found in an abandon car bomb shop.

Kinda strange if you ask me.
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Post by Rob the Wop » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:38 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:
yeah?? well, god and the great flood! so there!
God was always the big putz when it came to that whole genocide thingy.
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Post by Simply Joel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:41 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:what is a truck from Texas with texas registration stickers doing in fallujah?
cite-seeing?

(pun intended)
Yeah I tried to find a site to state about these claims that were broadcasted on CNN but could'nt find any as of yet.

This truck according to CNN was found in an abandon car bomb shop.

Kinda strange if you ask me.
kind of strange?

what, that vehicles are bought and sold out of Texas?

put the aluminum foil on your head, DVD... the signals are making you paranoid.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:45 pm

Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:
Simply Joel wrote: cite-seeing?

(pun intended)
Yeah I tried to find a site to state about these claims that were broadcasted on CNN but could'nt find any as of yet.

This truck according to CNN was found in an abandon car bomb shop.

Kinda strange if you ask me.
kind of strange?

what, that vehicles are bought and sold out of Texas?

put the aluminum foil on your head, DVD... the signals are making you paranoid.
What are you dood? some kinda CIA dood or something. You always have to call someone crazy when they have ligitamate questions.

What is a fucking truck from Texas doing in fallujah. Sure you can have an Iraqi that came from the states with his car but that's kinda expensive and makes no sense.
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Post by samtzu » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:55 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote: Yeah I tried to find a site to state about these claims that were broadcasted on CNN but could'nt find any as of yet.

This truck according to CNN was found in an abandon car bomb shop.

Kinda strange if you ask me.
kind of strange?

what, that vehicles are bought and sold out of Texas?

put the aluminum foil on your head, DVD... the signals are making you paranoid.
What are you dood? some kinda CIA dood or something. You always have to call someone crazy when they have ligitamate questions.

What is a fucking truck from Texas doing in fallujah. Sure you can have an Iraqi that came from the states with his car but that's kinda expensive and makes no sense.
Sorry, but I've got to go with Joel on this one (Jesus, twice in a month!)... but American vehicles in third world countries that have very sketchy governments are not all that suspicious. Some redneck couldn't bear to part with his baby when he came over to rape the country for Halliburton, and then some locals just hotwired it one night and drove it to Fallujah.... no biggie. It'll be shrapnel by next week...
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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