Absolutely unbelievable

[Lonesomebri]

My position hasn't much changed. I wasn't going to jump to conclusions until there was sufficient credible evidence. Once there was, my position has been consistent. If you're upset that I didn't go off like some raving maniac, well sorry. That's your problem.

As long as you believe yourself.........

[Elderberry]

My position hasn't much changed. I wasn't going to jump to conclusions until there was sufficient credible evidence. Once there was, my position has been consistent. If you're upset that I didn't go off like some raving maniac, well sorry. That's your problem.

As long as you believe yourself.........

Well, that's really all that is important now, isn't it?

[Ratty]

If they have a lot of profit their gift could be fabulous. Ice cream 24/7. Kegs of beer that never run out. Bottles of Gatorade for all that pass by. Money can provide great gifts. I won't hold my breath.

[Elderberry]

If they have a lot of profit their gift could be fabulous. Ice cream 24/7. Kegs of beer that never run out. Bottles of Gatorade for all that pass by. Money can provide great gifts. I won't hold my breath.

Well, didn't Zuckerberg pass out grilled cheese sandwiches personally? (but I'm not holding my breath either.)

[Jovankat]

If they have a lot of profit their gift could be fabulous. Ice cream 24/7. Kegs of beer that never run out. Bottles of Gatorade for all that pass by. Money can provide great gifts. I won't hold my breath.

Even with a tonne of money to buy the stuff someone has to actually do the 24/7 work of giving it out. If the campmates are up to that great but I'd hate to see them use their money to pay people to do the handing out of gifts.

[Elderberry]

If they have a lot of profit their gift could be fabulous. Ice cream 24/7. Kegs of beer that never run out. Bottles of Gatorade for all that pass by. Money can provide great gifts. I won't hold my breath.

Even with a tonne of money to buy the stuff someone has to actually do the 24/7 work of giving it out. If the campmates are up to that great but I'd hate to see them use their money to pay people to do the handing out of gifts.

Agree

[Eric]

If they have a lot of profit their gift could be fabulous. Ice cream 24/7. Kegs of beer that never run out. Bottles of Gatorade for all that pass by. Money can provide great gifts. I won't hold my breath.

Well, didn't Zuckerberg pass out grilled cheese sandwiches personally? (but I'm not holding my breath either.)

Yes, but I have friends who went there & the cheap bastards were only giving out 1/2 sandwiches!

I just don't understand why there should be placed commerce camps at all. There is no justification that will make it feel right to me.

If they're not placed, the Org has very minimal power of them (other than throwing people out - and if no money is changing hands on-playa that could be a huge legal issue). By placing them the Org (1)knows where they are, and can see if they're contributing (2)knows how they did on LNT (3)can reward or punish them with good/bad placement depending on their interactivity, just like any theme camp.

The part that's being forgotten in the furor is that these camps have existed "underground" since the 90s, and it would be really hard to ban them while letting other theme camps charge dues. Then you get the sticky-wicket of who gets to say what dues are fair. I think paying anything is ridiculous - our camp is based on work we do, not money - but others seem to think a couple hundred bucks is fine. For someone who makes thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars a week, who's to say that a weeks worth of their pay is too high of a due for them? Legal nightmare.

My opposition is to the special treatment they've apparently received, not to their mere existence. I would like more accountability, but, sorry, I'm a bit too jaded and realistic in my worldview to expect them to magically go away.

Even with a tonne of money to buy the stuff someone has to actually do the 24/7 work of giving it out. If the campmates are up to that great but I'd hate to see them use their money to pay people to do the handing out of gifts.

In 2011 the BRC Weekly core staff - including me - camped in the workers side of a VIP camp for our cover story, and it was a well-run camp (like the majority you don't hear about, not the asshole camps that have become the flash-point). Staff had set hours & lots of free time (don't ask me about the money side, I have no idea), the VIPs were all required to volunteer a set number of hours for city departments (most of them did Ice or the Cafe). There is a way to integrate them into the city, if the Org is willing to set standards - but there's the rub.



Off on a tangent, but parts of this discussion over the past few months just make me think of this:

[media]

[elKay]

If they're not placed, the Org has very minimal power of them (other than throwing people out - and if no money is changing hands on-playa that could be a huge legal issue). By placing them the Org (1)knows where they are, and can see if they're contributing (2)knows how they did on LNT (3)can reward or punish them with good/bad placement depending on their interactivity, just like any theme camp.

But if they are not placed and they have to go underground, that would make it harder for them to exist. Of course they wont go away, but why make it easy for them? Their early entry not only allows them to gobble up real estate but tells the rest of us that it is OK to profit on the burn. Their VIP access to tickets are why many of us can't go. If they were not placed, how could they guarantee anything to their customers?

[GreyCoyote]

Just as a point of reference, I know a dozen or so folks who would never have dreamed of scalping tickets, who are now seriously considering the idea. One plans to finance his trip to Cancun with the proceeds.

The basic notion is, "Larry does it. I CAN TOO". No way for the BORG to take the high road anymore.

That sucks, because now the tickets to that Big Decommodification Event In The Desert are a commodity in and of themselves. Thanks, Larry....

[Popeye]

If they're not placed, the Org has very minimal power of them (other than throwing people out - and if no money is changing hands on-playa that could be a huge legal issue). By placing them the Org (1)knows where they are, and can see if they're contributing (2)knows how they did on LNT (3)can reward or punish them with good/bad placement depending on their interactivity, just like any theme camp.

The part that's being forgotten in the furor is that these camps have existed "underground" since the 90s, and it would be really hard to ban them while letting other theme camps charge dues. Then you get the sticky-wicket of who gets to say what dues are fair. I think paying anything is ridiculous - our camp is based on work we do, not money - but others seem to think a couple hundred bucks is fine. For someone who makes thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars a week, who's to say that a weeks worth of their pay is too high of a due for them? Legal nightmare.

Put a Cap on it
The excuse that I have heard for letting camps charge dues is is that it is better- read more efficient- to have one or two people handle logistics, purchasing, etc. than to have twenty people go in thirty different directions. But, it has always been said or at least implied that leaders are not making any money off the camps. Generally true and this seems to have been fairly well accepted.
If a cap was put on the dues that could be collected (say 110% of material cost) and no Sherpa's then we get away from comodification and eliteism and increase the need for self reliance.
Yes, I know there would be a problem of trust. How do we know if a camp has charged to much? We wouldn't know for sure but the more egregious violators would be known, audited and caught. Ban and publicize those caught and you would have a pretty good deterrent. This is pretty much how city's collect sales tax.

[Lonesomebri]

....and at the end of the day, Zucky baby and his ilk will do everything on the playa half-assed, yet you will have some born peon toady sucking up claiming that whatever the powerful do is a great gift. For some people defending and promoting those powerful clowns is a knee-jerk reaction, uncontrollable, a natural state of being. (see above comments)

Humans just landed a satellite on a fricken comet, yet those of small imagination and smaller spirit are so sure there are limits that can not be overcome regarding REGULATIONS AND RULES ????????!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely unbelievable.

[tamarakay]

Just as a point of reference, I know a dozen or so folks who would never have dreamed of scalping tickets, who are now seriously considering the idea. One plans to finance his trip to Cancun with the proceeds.

The basic notion is, "Larry does it. I CAN TOO". No way for the BORG to take the high road anymore.

That sucks, because now the tickets to that Big Decommodification Event In The Desert are a commodity in and of themselves. Thanks, Larry....

Then you know crap folks. Apply that crazy logic to other things. Oh he raped her so I guess I will too. Oh look, that banker embezzled 1,000,000 I can too.

One persons poor behavior doesn't give me a pass on my ethics.

[vargaso]

If they're not placed, the Org has very minimal power of them (other than throwing people out - and if no money is changing hands on-playa that could be a huge legal issue). By placing them the Org (1)knows where they are, and can see if they're contributing (2)knows how they did on LNT (3)can reward or punish them with good/bad placement depending on their interactivity, just like any theme camp.

But if they are not placed and they have to go underground, that would make it harder for them to exist. Of course they wont go away, but why make it easy for them? Their early entry not only allows them to gobble up real estate but tells the rest of us that it is OK to profit on the burn. Their VIP access to tickets are why many of us can't go. If they were not placed, how could they guarantee anything to their customers?

That's my position as well. There is no need to add or even change any existing rules to solve this problem, simply have the existing theme camp application process apply to EVERYBODY. If a camp doesn't pass muster on the interactivity aspect, they don't get placed, they don't get early access, and most importantly, they don't get directed tickets. If such a camp has PnP aspirations, then they're pretty much screwed. Just like the rest of us. They could use their deep pockets to buy tickets on StubHub, but even that doesn't guarantee them enough tickets to run their business on the playa.

[GreyCoyote]

Just as a point of reference, I know a dozen or so folks who would never have dreamed of scalping tickets, who are now seriously considering the idea. One plans to finance his trip to Cancun with the proceeds.

The basic notion is, "Larry does it. I CAN TOO". No way for the BORG to take the high road anymore.

That sucks, because now the tickets to that Big Decommodification Event In The Desert are a commodity in and of themselves. Thanks, Larry....

Then you know crap folks. Apply that crazy logic to other things. Oh he raped her so I guess I will too. Oh look, that banker embezzled 1,000,000 I can too.

One persons poor behavior doesn't give me a pass on my ethics.

You are confusing ethics with law.
It is ILLEGAL to rape and embezzle. It is not illegal to sell a ticket above face value. Larry does exactly this, shamelessly.

So now lets talk about Larrys ethics.
Larry sells tickets out from under burners because it is legal to do so. At the same time he runs his mouth about the Ten Principles and tells his minions to cancel any tickets found sold above face EXCEPT HIS. If there is a bigger ethical sell-out, I havent seen it outside of a politician.

Now lets talk about your ethics.
How can you call people "crap" when they do something perfectly legal while exactly mimicing the behavior of the Chief Philosophical Officer of Burningman? Its a stroke-for-stroke copy!

Lets do this: Tamara gets to file all these people under the "crap" label, as long as I can put Larry Harvey's name under that same heading. Deal? Or is there some rational argument to be made against this?

Of course I'd be amiss if I failed to point-out that none of my "crappers" have actually done anything but contemplate the notion, while Larry has actually done this for years.

Yeah. Give me another sermon on ethics and logic...

[Elderberry]

So now lets talk about Larrys ethics.
Larry sells tickets out from under burners because it is legal to do so. At the same time he runs his mouth about the Ten Principles and tells his minions to cancel any tickets found sold above face EXCEPT HIS. If there is a bigger ethical sell-out, I havent seen it outside of a politician.

I wasn't aware of that. How would they even be ale to tell how much someone paid for their ticket?

[ygmir]

Just as a point of reference, I know a dozen or so folks who would never have dreamed of scalping tickets, who are now seriously considering the idea. One plans to finance his trip to Cancun with the proceeds.

The basic notion is, "Larry does it. I CAN TOO". No way for the BORG to take the high road anymore.

That sucks, because now the tickets to that Big Decommodification Event In The Desert are a commodity in and of themselves. Thanks, Larry....

Then you know crap folks. Apply that crazy logic to other things. Oh he raped her so I guess I will too. Oh look, that banker embezzled 1,000,000 I can too.

One persons poor behavior doesn't give me a pass on my ethics.

You are confusing ethics with law.
It is ILLEGAL to rape and embezzle. It is not illegal to sell a ticket above face value. Larry does exactly this, shamelessly.

So now lets talk about Larrys ethics.
Larry sells tickets out from under burners because it is legal to do so. At the same time he runs his mouth about the Ten Principles and tells his minions to cancel any tickets found sold above face EXCEPT HIS. If there is a bigger ethical sell-out, I havent seen it outside of a politician.

Now lets talk about your ethics.
How can you call people "crap" when they do something perfectly legal while exactly mimicing the behavior of the Chief Philosophical Officer of Burningman? Its a stroke-for-stroke copy!

Lets do this: Tamara gets to file all these people under the "crap" label, as long as I can put Larry Harvey's name under that same heading. Deal? Or is there some rational argument to be made against this?

Of course I'd be amiss if I failed to point-out that none of my "crappers" have actually done anything but contemplate the notion, while Larry has actually done this for years.

Yeah. Give me another sermon on ethics and logic...

you are ignoring TK's valid point.............

[tamarakay]

My ethics are jut fine. I stick to my principles whether or not others do. The fact that Larry doesn't hold to my standard of behavior, does not change my behavior.

It is ridiculous logic that the BMorg crap decisions gives me a pass on my ethics. I hold to my notion that anyone that weak is a crap person and even an crappier burner (Larry included).

[Dr. Pyro]

All I know for certain is that my moral compass doesn't exactly point to magnetic north.

[Simon of the Playa]

...

[Ratty]

Imaginative people have weird dreams and strange thoughts. Sometimes in mixed company it's best to keep them to yourself. Lest you be judged. As far as I recollect, the Thought Police went out of business in 1984. Go ahead. Feel free to daydream of ill gotten gains, adultery, retirement, grandkids, murder, revenge and every other human emotion. Don't tell me. You'll ruin my daydream of what you're dreaming of.

[GreyCoyote]

Go ahead. Feel free to daydream of ill gotten gains, adultery, retirement, grandkids, murder, revenge and every other human emotion."

Whoops. "Grandkids" kinda brought me up short. Hopefully I won't have to deal with that for a few more years...

Still waiting for the Big December 2nd Announcement....

[Jovankat]

So now lets talk about Larrys ethics.
Larry sells tickets out from under burners because it is legal to do so. At the same time he runs his mouth about the Ten Principles and tells his minions to cancel any tickets found sold above face EXCEPT HIS. If there is a bigger ethical sell-out, I havent seen it outside of a politician.

I wasn't aware of that. How would they even be ale to tell how much someone paid for their ticket?

People report sellers who are scalping tickets on eBay, stub hub or craigslist for above face value. If there's a way to identify the tickets either through the number printed on it or the identity of the seller they'll be cancelled.

There was also a camp a few years back who was caught selling tickets above face and had thee placement and early entry revoked.

[GreyCoyote]

This ^^^

And if you want to read it verbatim straight from the horses mouth: "...When our ticket office is alerted to situations where tickets are being sold for above face value, those tickets are voided and the ticket numbers are placed on our voided ticket list..."

Source: http://blog.burningman.com/2012/08/news ... t-numbers/

As I said, King Larry is immune from scalping. We, are not.

[Jovankat]

Even more horse's mouth, this is from the ticket terms and conditions

BRC retains the right to cancel, rescind or revoke any ticket purchases or vehicle pass purchases at any time for any reason whatsoever at BRC’s sole discretion. In particular, it is important to note that one of Burning Man’s Ten Principles is the principle of decommodification, and this Principle requires that Burning Man tickets not be utilized to promote any other company or project, or utilized for profit or scalping. Thus, if anyone attempts to sell or sells a Burning Man ticket or vehicle pass for above face value, or purchases a Burning Man ticket or vehicle pass with the intention of reselling it for above face value, or offers a Burning Man ticket as a reward or prize in any sweepstakes, auction, contest, game, or drawing, or offers a Burning Man ticket for sale as part of a travel package which includes lodging, shelter, meals or other amenities, BRC has the absolute right, in its sole discretion, to cancel any such ticket or vehicle pass without advance notice, and once cancelled, the ticket or vehicle pass will be null and void and will not grant the holder any right to enter the Event, and BRC will not have any liability to refund any of the purchase price to the purchaser or his or her assignee.

[digital]

Still waiting for the Big December 2nd Announcement....

Anxiously awaiting myself.

My feeling is the day will come and go with nothing from the BORG. Hope I'm wrong.

[Simon of the Playa]

Still waiting for the Big December 2nd Announcement....

Anxiously awaiting myself.

My feeling is the day will come and go with nothing from the BORG. Hope I'm wrong.

This Just In...

[digital]

Still waiting for the Big December 2nd Announcement....

Anxiously awaiting myself.

My feeling is the day will come and go with nothing from the BORG. Hope I'm wrong.

This Just In...

DAMN YOU!

[Simon of the Playa]

i'm sorry.

i tried to resist, but i couldn't.

[tamarakay]

Well that answers everyone's questions satisfactorily. Amazing. Thanks Simon.

[ygmir]

[media]