We Have a Dream Petition

[spectabillis]

1. Raise funding to 10%.
All over this board people complain that ticket prices are too high, I don’t' feel they are, but this has been expressed in many topics.

2. We need more large funded art.

Also on other discussions on this board, some people have stated a preference for smaller art vs. the giant pieces.... I saw many mutant vehicles that had lots of money put into them and were very impressive art. So if all these other people self-fund, fund raise, and dip into savings why should more art be funded?

3. Non theme art should be funded not just theme art.

Well this is a preference of the org. But as ladybee said they have stretched that and plan on stretching that further in the future. And again there have been discussions on eplaya about theme vs. non-theme art some people like it for inspiration and some hate it. I find both good.

So in conclusion I don’t see a major flaw in the system. Some art is currently funded, and more will be in the future, it sounds like, Theme and not theme. And as far as turning art-funding choices over to the masses, I think that is a bad idea...

I was thinking of people being involved in art installations to at least have free admission, and not necessarily just the large ones. This would address the loss of art installations and lack of art involvement, and hopefully address the issue of a 'party scene' elevation above an artistic focus. It would, once again, actively involve the general population in the appreciation of playa art, but would also provide right incentives for people to return with their own ideas and art the following year.... a sort of 'on-going investment?'

My concerns with this idea are:

Would it would raise ticket prices too much to compensate for that loss in revenue?

How to administer this? Case: artcars. Registration and selection of who or what is acceptable art could be administratively overwhelming. Although, the process is already understood and in place with both artcar pre-registration and those who apply for free or discounted tickets to those financially hardened.

Ticket price compensation may not be much to those with large-art installation investments, but at least it shows the issues of those artists are attempting to be addressed, despite whether the particular complaints are agreed with or not.

It helps put focus back on individual art, appreciation of the art, and incentive in returning burners to be actively involved.

[Version1]

I think the petition proposes cutting funding to the cafe and such to make up for the extra funds going towards art. Although I agree with that in principal the published budgets don't see to indicate there's half a million to be cut from those services. At least not according to the 2003 numbers. The cuts would have to be deep and hard across the board to make that up. The ORG seems to be in perpetual growth mode (in terms of infrastructure and staff responsibilities) so I don't see that happening. The cuts would have to be into the 1 million going to payroll.

http://afterburn.burningman.com/03/financial_chart.html

I also read Lady B's letter as "Everything's fine, I'm better at this than anyone else could possibly be, and rather than admit things are headed in the wrong direction I will attempt to discredit you." which was disappointing but expected. Some of it is understood because of the heavy "Lady B sucks" tone of the petition, but SOME admission that changes could be made would have been nice.

[Badger]

I also read Lady B's letter as "Everything's fine, I'm better at this than anyone else could possibly be, and rather than admit things are headed in the wrong direction I will attempt to discredit you." which was disappointing but expected. Some of it is understood because of the heavy "Lady B sucks" tone of the petition, but SOME admission that changes could be made would have been nice.

I think you're right. It probably is to be expected. I think anyone on either side of this particular fence probably would have reacted in much the same way given the out of the gate firecracker-up-the-ass salvo that initiated this little prarie fire. It immediately puts folks into a reactive mode. Addressing the charge(s) and initiating dialogue becomes secondary. I'm not judging the rightness or wrongness of how things are getting responded to. I'm just saying it escalates into the peasant with pitchfork mentality and eventually starts boiling over into personal insults which anyone can see over on the 'voter' portion of the petition page. It's polarizing and doesn't do anyone any good if it truly is dialogue that you're trying to initiate.

[thinkcooper]

I'm not judging the rightness or wrongness of how things are getting responded to. I'm just saying it escalates into the peasant with pitchfork mentality and eventually starts boiling over into personal insults which anyone can see over on the 'voter' portion of the petition page. It's polarizing and doesn't do anyone any good if it truly is dialogue that you're trying to initiate.

I'll toast to you on that point if we can agree to try and keep this thread from doing a Valuejet into the mud. It's producing more dialog than I thought it would, and there's likely more to come; the subject seems to deserve a clear space to happen in, even if it does head behind closed doors at some point down the road.

I think we as a community would all benefit from a less agro forum. If Ladybee, Maid Marian or Larry felt the need to engage in an eplaya dialog and could do so without fearing being overwhelmed, embarassingly backslapped or crucified, I'd cheer that possibility loudly. Burningman has spawned this community, this forum, our citizenery and perhaps even helped to grow a lifestyle unlike anything outside of a sci-fi movie. Damn cool shit. To lose all the possible positives to pitchforks and torches would be tragic.

[Badger]

NOTE: I've voiced this peeve of mine over in the 'Burning Man Bitch Fest' topic over on the 3playa (3playa.cultureshark.net) where the discussion is pretty lively.

Though it may be a tad off-topic I'm wondering if part of the frustrations that are being aired ALL around have anything to do with the shift in perception by the 50% of first time attendees that we've been seeing for the last few years along with 'back-sliding' by the community as a whole?

One of the 3playa folks noted the following in weighing in on the petition

"It's not so much a decline in art or oversight of art by the LLC -- it's community-wide backsliding on ethical/philosophical basics."

To which I replied:

Ding fucking ding, Ding, DING!!!

That's what I mean. That's what I've been wanting to say.

You speared it through the heart Bob.

The idea I have albeit vaporous at this point is that the shift is directly related to people forgetting, dismissing or not being aware of WHAT those ethical and philosophical basics are. It's the single biggest burr I have up my ass around the direction of the event. There are contradictory forces at work here that are conspiring towards Disney-esque mediocrity. Members of the LLC have gone on record stating that they do not want to see the size of the event limited and that it is capable of future expansion to include everybody with its No Burner Left Behind growth strategy. The egalitarian, embrace-all-comers angle only goes so far until you realize that you cannot sustain an infrastructure that's composed primarily of invested volunteers. Many of them are sickened at 2)the growing perception that BM is more about a rave/a party/a titty grabbing free-for-all and less about community and culture. [and art]

Somewhere in the mix the social contract that once worked really fucking well is being shit on and tossed into the JOtS (port-o-johns) along with the beer cans and watermelons.

This is what I spoke to Larry about this past weekend and tried to get across. It's the one thing I'd hoped would be heard when I decided to take and spill out some ideas I've been having lately.

In fairness to Larry he does want to get a group together to address the issues. The focus - nebulous as it is at this point - is about acculturation.

Perhaps meat for another thread. Maybe not. What I'm wondering is if there's anyone else out there that feels that this is contributing to a sense of decline in the event? Is the passion that's showing at this particular moment in fact symptomatic of a larger unaddressed/ignored issue?

Just curious.

[Badger]

Please note that I mean in no way to lay my perceived problems with the event at the feet of all those folks coming to the event for the first time.

[technopatra]

OK I talked to LadyBee about this and she said she'd send me a list soon. She'll have to compile it from various sources, so it'll take a wee bit of time. She did say that there were about 30 funded artists this year.

What I liked about this idea, was the ability to cross reference with ticket prices and attendence numbers. Gives you an idea of the overall percentage applied to funding art.

Why? I think I will reply to another post to explain both.

Ah, you can get that info right now. We publish the amount of grant money provided in our annual report, the Afterburn. We are still working on 2004's, but you can look at 2003 Financial chartto get an idea of what our budget and expenses are, and you can look at 2001 & 2000 as well. We only started doing the Afterburn in 2000 so there is no such record prior.

[thinkcooper]

Perhaps meat for another thread. Maybe not. What I'm wondering is if there's anyone else out there that feels that this is contributing to a sense of decline in the event? Is the passion that's showing at this particular moment in fact symptomatic of a larger unaddressed/ignored issue?

Just curious.

Early adopters are a special breed. I'd theorize that the early and middle days (pre'97?) of Burning Man were early adopter events. Following that timeframe, the same core group attended until the percentage of early adopters to larger market spectators diminished to the point where it became too watered down to tolerate for some. I'm not a demographer, but safely could guess some buzz words about early adopters. Progressive. Inventive. Passionate. Horizon scanners looking for what's next. Ziggers when everyone else is Zagging. Maybe there's a finite cap to how many early adopters inclined to attend the event are actually in the world, and with each new generation we get a mix of new early adopters and spectators. But, that the lion's share of the new growth in attendance comes from the near limitless population of spectators.

They can buy into the picture we paint with the retelling of the tales of BM myths and magic, and can even be an active participant of the event with cool but slightly recycled theme camp ideas, other-worldly dress, and an emotional commitment to the playa. All that window dressing camoflages being a spectator for many. I kinda think I'm walking the tightrope here, teetering side to side depending on what I can do in advance for any given year I attend. Maybe it comes down to BM being a culture where we share with the newcomers our stories, they mix the old and the new and develop their own stories to share with the subsequent new generations. Maybe that's our responsibility and our legacy.

All that bullshit spouted, maybe it's simply a matter of Burners coming to terms with the event's evolution, and those that can influence the feel the event taking on a different sense where they are not just performing for other early adopters but a host of attendees that both spectate and participate at varying levels.

Maybe this is where the art comes in. It hopefully reaches into the soul of all attendees and marks it with something that can't be erased when we head back into the real world. Big art. Small art. Performance art. Dangerous art. Irreverant art. Controversial art. Sexual art. Liberating art. Communal art. When it's good, its memory doesn't leave us. We're changed by it. Some people change their lives, some leave relationships and baggage behind. Many shift and change the world around, intentionally and otherwise. That's powerful shit.

That's why the art is critical. It is the core speaking to core and rest of the apple. That apple makes a damn fine pie. And i'd love a warm slice. Let the artists do their best.

[technopatra]

I think the petition proposes cutting funding to the cafe and such to make up for the extra funds going towards art. Although I agree with that in principal the published budgets don't see to indicate there's half a million to be cut from those services. At least not according to the 2003 numbers. The cuts would have to be deep and hard across the board to make that up. The ORG seems to be in perpetual growth mode (in terms of infrastructure and staff responsibilities) so I don't see that happening. The cuts would have to be into the 1 million going to payroll.

Point of clarification - my understanding is that the Cafe is essentially self-funded. There is an inital outlay for materials that is fed back into the budget through sales. The only way the cafe would ultimately end up requiring ticket money would be if it ended up in the red after event, which has not happened in the past few years. Any profits are applied back into cafe budget, and if there are profits beyond the cost of the cafe, they get applied back into the general budget.

The Cafe generally breaks even with enough profit to just cover the cost of it.

As for payroll cuts - the folks who get paid make so far below market rate for their work that it would be unconscionable to make pay cuts.

[thinkcooper]

[quote="thinkcooper"]
All that bullshit spouted, maybe it's simply a matter of Burners coming to terms with the event's evolution, and those that can influence the feel the event taking on a different sense where they are not just performing for other early adopters but a host of attendees that both spectate and participate at varying levels.
[quote]

forgot to edit the above---

All that bullshit spouted, maybe it's simply a matter of today's Burners coming to terms with the event's evolution; and those that can influence the feel of the event take on a different sensibility where they are not just performing for other early adopters but inspiring a host of new attendees that both spectate and participate at varying levels.

[Bob A]

In response to Version1's message about Lady Bee.

Yes her message did seem as you said. But the petition could be seen as an attack "we strike if you don't do what we want" and as expected she would reply in kind. However, I didn't feel the content of her message stated that everything was fine. She mentioned that the org was planning on putting more money into funding next year. That they do currently stretch the definition of theme art to give funding to non-theme projects. Also that they agreed that, that stretching needed to be defined for fairness in the future. She also states that this a time of challenge for BM with all the newbies and that feedback and constructive dialogue is welcome. This all seems very reasonable to me and given the attack she was given pretty level headed. Now the question is to wait and see if they do these things in 2005, I for one see no reason to doubt her at this point.

Spectabillis’ idea of letting artists get free tickets does sound good on the surface, but I agree that it would be hard to do. Some people would create the minimum art to get the discount or get someone to include them in their build team for a free ticket. It would be the same as the mutant vehicle problem, people building the minimum not for the enjoyment of the city but as a vehicle for them to drive around. And It would also as Spectabillis said raise the ticket prices for the poor saps that didn’t do art, because maybe the do performance, pancake house, time donation, etc etc.

And finally I think Badger has hit the nail right on the head. It’s not a problem with funding vs. not funding or anything else. There are a lot of new people and a lot of older people not contributing for whatever reason. If you read through a lot of those petition responses they say things like "yea fix the art", "make it the away it was", "where was all the cool art this year" To me these all sound like "why didn’t someone build the art?" , "don’t our tickets pay for this art?", "why don’t they pay (hire) more artists?" Now I’m not saying that’s how all the replies read to me, so don’t jump down my throat. The point is if you want more art bring it, do it. If those numbers are true, about 10,000 – 15,000 newbies this year, then that’s a lot of people who need to learn it all. This year was my first year and I didn’t bring any art. I did volunteer my time and helped out at couple of other camps. I also one day drove around on my bike with a keg of hard apple cider and gave it away, that was one of the most rewarding thing of the week for me, but it was all good. This year I’m already planning to do more I have an idea for one art project and one interactive cart expanding on the Cider idea. So I am now one converted newbie I will not longer be a drain on the community in year two and I will have brought art with me. I may file a grant for my project, if I don’t get it or if I only get some I will still do it I’ll just raise the money or pay for it myself.

I also thing that BM is not just an art festival or maybe not even an art festival. For me it was more a community festival. Sure there is a lot of parties but what impressed me from day one was the community, strangers helping giving and talking to each other. I don’t see that in the default world. The art is great and it gives the community a way to start some interaction but the art of community is what I’m going to go back for year after year.

Bob A

[spectabillis]

Spectabillis’ idea of letting artists get free tickets does sound good on the surface, but I agree that it would be hard to do. Some people would create the minimum art to get the discount or get someone to include them in their build team for a free ticket. It would be the same as the mutant vehicle problem, people building the minimum not for the enjoyment of the city but as a vehicle for them to drive around.
And It would also as Spectabillis said raise the ticket prices for the poor saps that didn’t do art, because maybe the do performance, pancake house, time donation, etc etc.
Bob A

Yep, thats a valid concern, which is why I said it would be an administrative action in deciding who gets it, who does not, criteria for selection...etc. There are many who would try to get away with it.

Its also why I wanted to know how they did it this year with art-car registration and proof of those financially hardened. It can be done, has been done, just dont know the details how and if it could be extended.

..There are a lot of new people and a lot of older people not contributing for whatever reason. ...The point is if you want more art bring it, do it. If those numbers are true, about 10,000 – 15,000 newbies this year, then that’s a lot of people who need to learn it all.Bob A

If you already know of it, sorry for pointing this out - but Geekster posted a response to this in http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... c&start=30 and ""Bringing Newbies Into The Fold" threads.

http://virginparade.tribe.net/

Shows promise and has my support, but in my (humble and perhaps worthless) experience, more things are still needed to make a sizeable dent in the problem.

[spectabillis]

Point of clarification - my understanding is that the Cafe is essentially self-funded. There is an inital outlay for materials that is fed back into the budget through sales. The only way the cafe would ultimately end up requiring ticket money would be if it ended up in the red after event, which has not happened in the past few years. Any profits are applied back into cafe budget, and if there are profits beyond the cost of the cafe, they get applied back into the general budget.

The Cafe generally breaks even with enough profit to just cover the cost of it.
.

Do you know if this is also true for the ice-sales setup?

As for payroll cuts - the folks who get paid make so far below market rate for their work that it would be unconscionable to make pay cuts.

Good point, because they are the ones who will implement much of what ideas are formed. Hard to be motivated when you know what you are doing is working against your compensation.

[Version1]

As for payroll cuts - the folks who get paid make so far below market rate for their work that it would be unconscionable to make pay cuts.

I didn't mean the people working for Burning Man would get paid less, I meant there would have to be fewer people working for Burning Man. Again, I'm not saying this is what SHOULD happen, only that it's what would have to happen to come up with a half million dollars without raising ticket prices.

In reference to people saying Lady B did suggest changes could be made, the only changes listed are continuations of the path that's already being taken. Funding increases a little each year, and the already murky theme requirements get murkier each year.

Can we all admit that things were bad this year? There were a few really cool things a few things that get high marks for effort, and not much else. Artists who used to make great contributions are burning out and not enough new ones are stepping up to take their place. We can argue who's fault this might be, but that doesn't change whether it's happening or not. Will things repair themselves if the ORG stays the course? Or, should we demand something change, ANYTHING change? The ORG seems unwilling or unable to do this.

Would a short, humble letter requesting a small change have drawn this much attention to the problem?

[thinkcooper]

Would a short, humble letter requesting a small change have drawn this much attention to the problem?

I don't think so.

[Badger]

Do you know if this is also true for the ice-sales setup?

I believe ALL monies beyond the cost of materials (ice, structure, etc) taken in for ice sales gets distributed exclusively to the surrounding communities for under-funded programs such as seniors, schools, athletics, etc.

[stuart]

this will be disjointed as it is a reaction to many different salient points. Sorry.

Is the passion that's showing at this particular moment in fact symptomatic of a larger unaddressed/ignored issue?

early adopters

changing demographics

if I think about it in a certain context it is illuminating and depressing; burning man is gentrifying. Now, there are some good things about gentrifying but in the context of burning man not so much. If we think about it in that paradigm what can be done? Anything? What do people do when they start feeling too hip/too poor for their neighborhood? They bitch or they move. What does a progressive city council effectively do to stem the tide? In my experience, not a hell of a lot. Now, I hate overblown analogies more than the next guy but this just struck me when I put the above quoted text together.

And now for some unrelated thoughts...

when communities gather to celebrate we call it a party. Someone in one of these threads said something like, and I think it was lost during the crash or I'd dig it up and quote it, hey I build art all day so is it not cool that I want to party my ass off and dance all night?

discounted tickets for artists...
At Xara Dulzura I do one of the bigger pieces. I am asked to pay cost, not full price. Mark recognizes that I am helping to make his event better and perhaps subsequently line his pockets (more like pay for previous Xara expenditures). I got in for free at L.A. decom for bringing my rig. I think this would be awesome for BRC but at that scale it seems unwieldy. I think this concept is what ticks those of us off who spend piles of time and money and get no subsidy about this petition. I am in effect paying for other peoples art projects while at the same time funding my own. The money aint flowing both ways. There is a lot of talk about community but I don't really believe we have one where the administration of this event is concerned. We can not all be invlolved. We are not all allowed to be involved. I am O.K. with that. Still, a token gesture like $5 off of my ticket for my efforts would be nice.

As far as the theme goes. I don't bitch about it. I like to use it. I would suggest though, larry if you're listening, let us know about it a little earlier. Just a hint. For me it is a mad scramble to produce themed animation in the time I have available between the theme announcement and burning man. Shit, my big themed centerpiece clip took 40 god damned days to render this year.


oh and this...

Disney-esque mediocrity.

I think we produce the best damned theme park attractions in the world. Ride tower of terror for god's sake. The que alone through the basement is gorgeous.

[thinkcooper]

if I think about it in a certain context it is illuminating and depressing; burning man is gentrifying. Now, there are some good things about gentrifying but in the context of burning man not so much. If we think about it in that paradigm what can be done? Anything? What do people do when they start feeling too hip/too poor for their neighborhood? They bitch or they move. What does a progressive city council effectively do to stem the tide? In my experience, not a hell of a lot. Now, I hate overblown analogies more than the next guy but this just struck me when I put the above quoted text together.

I like your overblown analogy, I'm a sucker for 'em. Maybe BM is gentrifying, interesting idea. Continuing in your analogy - apologies in advance. In SF gentrifying drove artists out of their studios, when warehouses were converted to townhouses. The efforts afoot seem like they're trying to move a city council to keep the artists as intact as possible, and we just might get a fancier park in the process.

[technopatra]

I didn't mean the people working for Burning Man would get paid less, I meant there would have to be fewer people working for Burning Man. Again, I'm not saying this is what SHOULD happen, only that it's what would have to happen to come up with a half million dollars without raising ticket prices.

Thanks for the clarification. It is the same issue, tho - paying less money for the same amount of work. I don't really see how the workload itself could be reduced. Suggesting layoffs is even less feasible, imo.

In reference to people saying Lady B did suggest changes could be made, the only changes listed are continuations of the path that's already being taken. Funding increases a little each year, and the already murky theme requirements get murkier each year.

I agree that there is a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions, or lack of conception, around the process. And I believe that it is the Project's fault for not conveying it clearly. LadyBee & I just discussed the pages she linked to and when I suggested that we were failing to convey the salient points/process to most site visitors, she agreed. She was actually way ahead of me, and is already working on a more easily read, bullet-pointed cheat sheet to get the main points across. We will post it here and see about rewriting those pages on the site to make that info more accessible by all.

What I have a hard time with is the perception that this info is purposefully obscured. I absolutely disagree with the inference that the Project keeps this a secret to shut out criticism, and that kind of conspiracy thinking drives me batty.

Can we all admit that things were bad this year?

Well, no. Some things were bad. Certainly not everything, and certainly not all of the art. I think that Badger nailed it, that the core issue is one of acculturization. I think the lack of civil personal interaction is a much, much bigger problem than lack of big art.

I think the petitioners have framed this discussion in a way that gives the Project credit for power it doesn't possess: the ability to completely define the art, and therefore quality-of-life, on the playa by selecting the recipients of its own grant money.

Another misconception I think I am seeing (not specifically by you, V.1) is the idea that all the grant money should be spent on big art.

Ok we had about 30 funded artists. The funds they get range from as little as a couple of hundred dollars into the low five-figures. I would venture to say that there are more smaller-funded artists than large pieces, tho we'll all know for sure when I get that list from LadyBee.

So here's a question - would you prefer to deny 20 artists with visions for smaller, cheaper pieces their chance at a grant (theme, interactivity, etc aside for the moment) so as to ensure that 4 or 5 artists of Jim Mason's stature could do $40,000 projects? Whatever the amount, each year there will be a finite number of dollars to be handed out. Each year there will be more artists than dollars for the. Each year some artists will have to be rejected.

There were a few really cool things a few things that get high marks for effort, and not much else. Artists who used to make great contributions are burning out and not enough new ones are stepping up to take their place. We can argue who's fault this might be, but that doesn't change whether it's happening or not. Will things repair themselves if the ORG stays the course? Or, should we demand something change, ANYTHING change? The ORG seems unwilling or unable to do this.

You are right, it doesn't change the fact that it's happening. But understanding the cause is the only way to find solutions. I do not believe that the Project is reponsible for anything but the quality of the theme art out there, because that is what they fund and that is, in my experience, the only area where curation - if you define curation as the selection of art to allow based on artistic judgement - actually happens. The rest of the art istallation process is simply registration to make sure people know their cleanup plan and they won't blow anybody up, and I don't think that can be defined as curation.

The quality of the art is dependent solely on the quality of the artists.

Admittedly I have no experience with placement, so I can do nothing but speculate on its affect on the piece or the artists' experience.

Would a short, humble letter requesting a small change have drawn this much attention to the problem?

I understand that this is a rhetorical question as clearly the answer would be no. But again, I think the problem is misstated. The ultimate issue, as you pose it and I think is a very good way of stating it, is:

How can artists be inspired?

To which I answer...what power does each of us:

the LLC Board
the Project staff & volunteers
the artists' and themecamps' groups
each of us as individuals

have to inspire artists and each other, and how can we each best wield it?

To suggest that it all come down to funding or not funding, or having a theme or not having a theme is a myopic view of a much bigger opportunity for positive change.

I can say this because immediately after the event his year, the Project staff, listing several of the same complaints about the experience of the event that I have seen here, started thinking about solutions. Now I can only speak for the webteam here, but we have taken the task of better teaching people about who and what we are as a means for promoting more interaction and responsibility on the playa, for starters. In the hopes of addressing the affect on our culture that comes with an influx of newbies, we are germinating ideas for how to better culturally prepare
them before they hit the playa (btw- I have forwarded the link to the "Bringing newbies in to the fold thread to the staff list, because I found it SO inspiring.)

Jim and Chicken have little idea of what other work we are already trying to do to improve things, and they didn't, to my knowledge, ask.

I understand they each have long-standing histories with the Project and specific members of the Board. I believe they each have had and will have incredibly positive impacts on the arts community in the Bay Area. I do not doubt their hearts one iota, but feel their position as rpresented bt the petition is too narrow and too loaded with baggage from old school personal issues to accurately frame the issues at hand, represent the artist community that "matters" as they claim to, or find reasonable, feasible solutions. The childishness of spitting out an ultimatum attests to this.

But they sure can start a ruckus, and that alone is worth its weight in gold. We are loving that this conversation is happening. I hope in my heart of hearts that this was the plan all along.

[tisha2]

speaking from completely outside the art at bm loop - but as a member of the community - here's my two cents:

firstly, i think the dwindling art at BM is more an issue with the economy at large than the fault of bm’s curating. a lot of the super-cool stuff years back came from folks cashing in on the dotcom industry. not so much money floating around in the counter-culture these days.

and, honestly, to an outsider, it sounds like what is being asked for is carte blanche funding. i think it's a great thing that bm helps fund art, and i love seeing stuff out there, but can't get behind the idea that the artists are in any way beholden to the rules or judgements of the org. if you want their money, then, yeah - yer gonna hafta fit their criteria...it's their funding. but no one is stopping you from making whatever you can with whatever materials are at hand (or that you can afford - or raise money for) and then you can bring it out there and put it up (almost) anywhere you want. i don't see anything wrong with the org having some say in what they contribute to and place prominently.

and from TP's last post...it looks like some of the issues (what was 'broken') are being worked on.

[Rian Jackson]

Wow. Thanks so much for speaking for me, Mr. Jim Mason.

If you've read this discussion - which is possibly the best open discussion on this issue, in an in-depth manner that is going around - you'd realise that you do NOT have 90% support here. On my local listserve your petition was, in some circles, ridiculed.

I've been fence sitting, personally. Because while i think change and community management are important, i have not yet decided whether or not i think your tactics and your vision are the way to go.

Before I post more on this discussion, i need to simmer. Because right now, by blanantly ignoring my voice and the voice of many others here and elsewhere, by trying to negate our opinions and concerns, you have pissed me off and lost my respect.

Yours,
Rian

[sparkletarte]

Though it may be a tad off-topic I'm wondering if part of the frustrations that are being aired ALL around have anything to do with the shift in perception by the 50% of first time attendees that we've been seeing for the last few years along with 'back-sliding' by the community as a whole?

I completely agree with what Badger says here and have been thinking this for quite a long while. I also think the huge increases in the size of BRC over the past couple years has a lot to do with it. The % of new people is much higher than in the past. Perhaps an event of this nature, and wanting to keep certain elements of the original ideas/community/art, needs to have a limitation in the number of people attending, or a regulated % increase in tickets sold each year, rather than selling as many as people who want to buy them. Yes, that would leave some people out who want to go and would contribute, but it's an organism/business/event like any other, in that sometimes unchecked growth isn't the best thing to maintain the original vision.

[Rian Jackson]

Someone, about a month ago, correlated each year with the percentage increase in newbies. As i recall nebies numbered up to 50% in some early years, over 100% some years. So i don't know that we can say it's a percentage issue - possibly sheer numbers.

I find it both important and disturbing the conversation that's happening here. The part I'm torn on is the 'quality' of the art, the preference for a certain 'type' of art. I wonder who it is that defines what 'good' art is. Now, i'm not saying we necessarily want to encourage slip-shod, slap-dash works. But i have a feeling, also, that were i to bring something (again) next year and run into some of the people involved in this discussion, my 'art' would not be 'good' art because i don't have 10K to spend on it, i live in a shoebox with no yard, and i don't have welding skills.

Am i still thinking about what i want to do for next year? Yes. Does that include learning new skills and jumping through lots of life's (not the Borg's) hoops? Yes. Is this kind of discussion part of the reason that i wouldn't have told half of you where I put my art? Better believe it. And it makes me hesitate to put a lot of energy into something. In the end i'll just say 'fuck off' to the nay-sayers anyway, but this is coming from a 2-year burner. If I'm feeling this way, i wonder how many other 'newbies' are too.

Is this part of what's contributing to the decline Badger talked about? I don't know.

Hm. Back to processing all of this. Oh, and thanks for dropping the non-productive flame war, boys. This is much preferable.

[thinkcooper]

Back to processing all of this. Oh, and thanks for dropping the non-productive flame war, boys. This is much preferable.

Yes indeed! Processing here as well, much perferrable to figuring out how to defuse.

[sparkletarte]

Someone, about a month ago, correlated each year with the percentage increase in newbies. As i recall nebies numbered up to 50% in some early years, over 100% some years. So i don't know that we can say it's a percentage issue - possibly sheer numbers.

Oh, okay, thanks RJ. I was just going by what others have said was their experience, must have missed that other thread. I'm not really sure how new folks could account for more than 100% though...

[playasnake]

the percentage increase can be 100%... (the same as doubling)

[thinkcooper]

So here's a question - would you prefer to deny 20 artists with visions for smaller, cheaper pieces their chance at a grant (theme, interactivity, etc aside for the moment) so as to ensure that 4 or 5 artists of Jim Mason's stature could do $40,000 projects? Whatever the amount, each year there will be a finite number of dollars to be handed out. Each year there will be more artists than dollars for the. Each year some artists will have to be rejected.

I like something in the middle. If 40K in Mason's hands would have turned my world upside down, I'd say go for it. But, if he could have done the same for 20, with more funds coming from parties and bake sales, and then another 20 starving artists could have had their 2X4s, copper sheets, welding gas, kiln electricity, steel, canvas, LEDs and circuit boards paid for, I'd be a happy burner.

Crazy idea #1: Maybe if BM had a little checkbox I could click on the website when I buy my tickets, that gave me the choice to kick in an additional $20/40/100 for the art fund, or hell, leave it blank and let me contribute what I can afford to that year. And then have those aggregated funds adminstered by both a curator like LadyBee that's responsible to the needs of the Org, and community/artist jurors that can be a little crazy... Maybe exempt them from the general art grant fund, special case them... like only if they burst forth flames

Crazy idea #2: Now that BM is the established 600 pound gorilla in the funding of outsider art (hooray for that!) how about BMorg approach some of the more progressive, institutional, deep-pocketed, art grant organizations for co-funding of playa art? BM and the Arts Foundation is pretty damn established, and perhaps- its own unified voice. It seems that a foundation could be heard and in the process get the playa more cool art to interact with and be astounded by. Sorry for not sounding very self reliant there, it's just that you guys have the clout to pull that off.

But they sure can start a ruckus, and that alone is worth its weight in gold. We are loving that this conversation is happening. I hope in my heart of hearts that this was the plan all along.

I think it was the plan. I've gotten some messages after posting all this stuff that seems to confirm your hopes.

[sparkletarte]

Gotcha, I'm thinking in % of total attendence, not in increasing over previous years for solely the new people. I wonder how they compare.

[Rian Jackson]

Someone, about a month ago, correlated each year with the percentage increase in newbies. As i recall nebies numbered up to 50% in some early years, over 100% some years. So i don't know that we can say it's a percentage issue - possibly sheer numbers.

Oh, okay, thanks RJ. I was just going by what others have said was their experience, must have missed that other thread. I'm not really sure how new folks could account for more than 100% though...

mm, sorry, i was unclear. the attendance jump was astronomical some years, which, considering the numbers, indicates a *ridiculous* proportion of first-timers.

the fact that this particular piece of misinformation has been echoed across sectors on the BM community is one indication of a prejudice that is widely held here. i don't want to delve too deeply into that here - it's been covered on these boards, and Geekster's plan (which has already been cited on this thread) is a great, proactive step toward changing any 'newbie problem' there might be.

still, that makes me think that it needs to not just be technical 'newbies' at the boot camp. maybe some 'veterans' need to be born again.

on an idea brewing that can't really be administrated in the way the petition is talking about:

i can't help but think that a lot of this stuff needs to happen at a regional level. that's where people can be inspired on a daily basis, where people can learn new skills, where folks can be indoctrinated and inspired in the ways of radical art. i realise that not everyone who goes to BM has a strong, supportive community. but the question may be more 'how can we support these visions/ funding needs/ etc at a regional level' as opposed to 'how to we change the structure to do this.'

The deal is, big structures (which the Borg HAD to become) have a lot of those fiscal and legal responsibilities. Sometimes you have to take your 'liberation'. You want organised anarchy? Create it.

I'm not dismissing out of hand the ideas put forth in the petition, mind you. I just think that the most productive thing will be to to look at the needs/desires put forth and see how best to make them come to fruition.

Things changed at that level rarely have the desired outcome.

So, if we're still addressing the Borg, is there some way that either THEY can change their ways or WE can change our methods of interacting with them that will spark more of this locally? Think community groups. Think focussing on city council instead of the US senate. Think about what happens in the meeting space between people, where community lives.

i think i'm over my 2 cents, but i'm feelin' wealthy and generous...

[Sensei]

...i can't help but think that a lot of this stuff needs to happen at a regional level. that's where people can be inspired on a daily basis, where people can learn new skills, where folks can be indoctrinated and inspired in the ways of radical art. i realise that not everyone who goes to BM has a strong, supportive community. but the question may be more 'how can we support these visions/ funding needs/ etc at a regional level' as opposed to 'how to we change the structure to do this.'

I bet this makes someone spit their chocolate milk all over the monitor. The Seattle folks, IMHO, are going to show how this is done... More local events + holding them more often = some serious frickin' money.