Flattop shade design questions

[lymerae]

Hi all,

In the past our camp has done connected carports, but after some wind catastrophes I think we're done with those. This year, I was considering doing a flattop design: EMT conduit piping, connected via fittings in 10' by 10' squares raised 8' high. For the covering, I'm still debating whether to go with silver tarp + ball bungees, 80% black shade cloth, or 70% aluminet. I'm also not totally sure what size we're looking at yet - maybe 20' x 40', extended by the built-in awning of an RV that will be coming with us.

Here are my questions:

1. How would you recommend getting the EMT poles anchored into the playa? There doesn't seem like a great way to use rebar to do it. I could use a foot pad like this one: http://www.ysbw.com/Canopy-Fitting-1-Fo ... p/2255.htm
along with either 10" nails or lag bolts to drill into those three little holes (there will be a generator on the RV, so power tools are a possibility). Then of course we could use guy lines or even mule tape to tie down the sides and corners of the structure. But is that really going to be secure enough for such a large structure?

2. One of the best things about the carports was having a relatively dust-free and rainproof area to use as a kitchen. We put tarps on the ground and duct-taped all edges together to get a fairly airtight space (of course, this is exactly what made us vulnerable to wind).

As I research more, though, it seems like people recommend using ball bungees with tarps if you're going to do a flattop structure so that the wind can get through without flattening everything. But how does that work with keeping dust out of your food? If we built a flattop EMT structure and used heavy-duty tarps on all sides, with ball bearings to allow them to stretch, could we possibly duct-tape strips of fabric along the joints and edges of the structure to help block dust while allowing wind passage?

Many thanks in advance!

[motskyroonmatick]

Nice first post!. Ive been bring 2 20 x 40 flat topped shades to the playa for years. I stake down the exterior with guy lines from the connectors to rebar in the playa a minimum of half the height of the upright away from the bottom. If the shades are connected together to make a 40 square then I just zip tie them together at the joining line and stake and guy the outside. Every outside upright is staked to the ground by tying over the connector and cinching to angled rebar pounded a minimum of 16 inches in to the ground. Most times I double the corners. I prussic to the rebar with a loop and a single line goes to that prussic from the connector. I put tennis balls on the bottom of all uprights so they don't dig in to the playa. I use shade cloth but a tarp underneath shade cloth works awesome for water sensitive areas and offers ultimate shade.

[lymerae]

Thanks so much! This all makes a lot of sense. One question - if you don't stake the poles themselves at all, only rebarr'd guylines on edges and corners, does that mean that the structure bounces and shifts a bit in the wind since the poles themselves aren't grounded?

[maladroit]

A tarp structure is unlikely to keep much dust out of your food. You'll also probably have a better experience if you leave the RV's awning packed away and just make the shade structure bigger. Those things are not designed for playa winds.

[lymerae]

Good to know, thanks. I suppose if we have enough room we can leave the awning folded and only draw it out when the winds are calm enough.

If a tarp structure definitely won't work, what would you recommend for a kitchen space? What do other people use?

[GreyCoyote]

Our camp uses flat-top shade structures made from 1" EMT and standard 90 degree fittings. They work very well, and they don't tangle with the wind much. We hold them down with 16 inch lag bolts drilled into the playa and sink the heads about an inch below ground level. This holds very well, and we have had no troubles even during big dust storms.

The ball bungies are a good idea because they allow for a quick-release in case of a bad wind. You can snap off half of your bungies in less time than it takes to type this. It isn't a pretty method of release, but it sure works as an emergency intervention method for saving a shelter in a high wind.

One thing I have learned, is to use ratchet straps from the top of the structure to the lag bolt. This loads the structure from the top and helps to control movement. Don't make the mistake of bolting just the "footies" of your shade structure to the playa, as the rest of the structure will lift-off and sail away when the bolts slip. I saw one camp trying to straighten their EMT shade structure after a blow. It looked like a giant metal spider that had been washed down a drain. Yikes...

Final bit: if it rains, take a few bungies out of the middle of each section to allow the water to run-off. A flat-top structure works like a very nice rain-catcher, and water is heavy. Left to its own devices, it will collapse your shade structure. Last year Unjohn (with his cane no less!) saved our asses by methodically poking his cane upwards against the tarps and causing them to spill the accumulated water off. If he had not been in camp when the rain hit, it would have collapsed the structure. (He's gonna be unsufferable after this admission... you just watch. heheheh)

[lymerae]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I know that water accumulation will be something to watch out for if we go with tarps. With shade cloth or aluminet, on the other hand, it looks like people say that water seeps through - so no danger but also no dry spots beneath. Hmm, maybe a mix of the two options would be best

Do you do both footies and guylines with the lag bolts? Or the guylines / ratchet lines on the outside only?

[GreyCoyote]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I know that water accumulation will be something to watch out for if we go with tarps. With shade cloth or aluminet, on the other hand, it looks like people say that water seeps through - so no danger but also no dry spots beneath. Hmm, maybe a mix of the two options would be best

Do you do both footies and guylines with the lag bolts? Or the guylines / ratchet lines on the outside only?

We do "footies" (short sections of EMT with 3 inch diameter disks on the bottom to act as load spreaders) and ratchet straps on each and every leg. The footies are to keep the structure from punching through the playa crust which would result in loose ratchet straps and a loss of integrity to the structure. As an added bit, to the windward side I usually add an extra ratchet strap off each windward leg at a 30 degree angle to a lag bolt as a "just in case" to prevent the structure from walking or deforming downwind.

FWIW, these EMT canopies are remarkably resilient when anchored properly.

The playa holds lag bolts amazingly well. Last year I used an impact wrench to drill them into the subsurface and actually managed to twist off a lag head. The lag bolts were 3/8" so that says something about the holding power. Interestingly enough, only the last 4 inches of the lags were really doing something. The rest of that shank was acting as an extension and nothing more. But that last 4 inches was really magic! (Oh the crude jokes that could stem from that last line... heheheheh)

[lymerae]

We do "footies" (short sections of EMT with 3 inch diameter disks on the bottom to act as load spreaders) and ratchet straps on each and every leg. The footies are to keep the structure from punching through the playa crust which would result in loose ratchet straps and a loss of integrity to the structure. As an added bit, to the windward side I usually add an extra ratchet strap off each windward leg at a 30 degree angle to a lag bolt as a "just in case" to prevent the structure from walking or deforming downwind.

Can I ask where you get your "footies"? These are the ones I've found: http://www.ysbw.com/Canopy-Fitting-1-Fo ... p/2255.htm

For the price, it seems like it might be better to take motskyroonmatick's suggestion and just jam tennis balls on the ends of each pole to prevent them digging in - that is, unless lag bolts are getting drilled into the footies themselves, which from your description it doesn't sound like they are?

Also, for ratchet straps on interior legs, how do you find room to do them at an angle? Wouldn't they be tripping people up inside the space? I was thinking only exterior legs so that the angled rope didn't get in the way.

[tamarakay]

Thank god, this is eplaya back to what eplaya does best.

I wish I could chime in, but we are firmly in the monkeyhut family. We have a demolition hammer we use to drive in the rebar and use 90% shade cloth. We built a hut big enough to park a 32 foot airstream under. Awesome sauce.

[GreyCoyote]

Those are *exactly* the critters we use. YSBW parts are used throughout our shade structure, and the quality is quite good, especially for the price. YSBW was half the price of several other sites I looked at, and the lady who answers the phone was a pleasure to work with. Good folks and burner friendly.

Having said that, you can do the tennis ball thing if you want. There is nothing wrong with it, but it does not give as much surface area as the official "footies" do. In the dry, this won't matter, but when the playa goes soggy, and you're looking at needing a larger surface area to take the downward loads, you'll be cussing those balls. So I think about doing it in stages: Your first year you could use tennis balls. The second year you could use "proper" footies as budget allowed.

[GreyCoyote]

Thank god, this is eplaya back to what eplaya does best.

I wish I could chime in, but we are firmly in the monkeyhut family. We have a demolition hammer we use to drive in the rebar and use 90% shade cloth. We built a hut big enough to park a 32 foot airstream under. Awesome sauce.

Please ignore Tamara. She will dye your canopy fittings wild colors and then make you wear cool silk stuff. You may enjoy this and become hooked. There are no 12 step recovery programs. You have been warned....

[lymerae]

I do appreciate it all the same! I was considering a monkey hut as well for a kitchen and/or dressing room area. Do you think a monkey hut covered with a silver tarp, which is then taped to a tarp on the floor and with sides added, would do a decent job keeping out dust in order to prepare food? What appeals to me about the EMT flattop for a main shade structure is the open, social aspect of it - chatting with people walking by, etc.

I'm down with crazy colors!! And lights, can we have lights please?

[Elderberry]

Your camp wouldn't be Astro Pups by chance? They had one of the biggest wind disasters with car ports I have ever witnessed. I guess the moral of that story is never take a break before making sure everything is properly tied down.

[lymerae]

Nah, dust & stars (a pretty tiny camp). The real wind disasters apparently happened last year, when I wasn't there, but I'm taking there word for it!

[GreyCoyote]

I do appreciate it all the same! I was considering a monkey hut as well for a kitchen and/or dressing room area. Do you think a monkey hut covered with a silver tarp, which is then taped to a tarp on the floor and with sides added, would do a decent job keeping out dust in order to prepare food? What appeals to me about the EMT flattop for a main shade structure is the open, social aspect of it - chatting with people walking by, etc.

I'm down with crazy colors!! And lights, can we have lights please?

Let me say this about dust: it's EVERYWHERE. Get used to it. Within 30 minutes of arrival, it will be in your hair, food, crack, twat, toes, armpits, ears, eyes and nose. If there is a nook or a cranny, it will be there. There is NO escaping the dust. Fuggitabbodit!

You should translate the above into: "There is nowhere on the playa that is dust free. You can spend all day, every day, from sunrise to sunset, chasing dust, and it will still beat you". So don't bother.

Do not try to stop the dust. Embrace it instead. Let it flow through you. Ride the wind with it and let yourself go. Put it in your food and eat it. Nummerz! Let it coat your skin. Let your hair become a frizzy, random mess.

The only person I have ever seen who looked fresh, dustless and dignified, was our very own moderator Ms Savannah. How she pulled this trick off I will never know, but the working theory is she is an alien life form genetically engineered to repel dust. PM her and ask.

I was going somewhere with this rant, but for the life of me can't remember where. Oh well. Dust. It's all good....

[lymerae]

Oh trust me! I've been and I understand. I'm not going for lab-standard hygeine.... just enough of a wind block to boil a pot of stew without getting a nice deposit on top This was exactly what our old carports provided, so I'm looking for something that can replicate that for the kitchen, just with a bit more sturdiness.

[FIGJAM]

Final bit: if it rains, take a few bungies out of the middle of each section to allow the water to run-off. A flat-top structure works like a very nice rain-catcher, and water is heavy. Left to its own devices, it will collapse your shade structure. Last year Unjohn (with his cane no less!) saved our asses by methodically poking his cane upwards against the tarps and causing them to spill the accumulated water off. If he had not been in camp when the rain hit, it would have collapsed the structure. (He's gonna be unsufferable after this admission... you just watch. heheheh)

That was me.

Each panel of your shade was billowed down about 12"s when I noticed it, so I slogged over with my rake and relieved about 40 gallons off the panels.

[maladroit]

That was me.

Each panel of your shade was billowed down about 12"s when I noticed it, so I slogged over with my rake and relieved about 40 gallons off the panels.

Fuck, you're good.

[Jovankat]

Oh trust me! I've been and I understand. I'm not going for lab-standard hygeine.... just enough of a wind block to boil a pot of stew without getting a nice deposit on top

Bring a lid for your saucepan then

Also bringing your stew in those plastic bags that can be boiled would work. It would be sealed until its served then.

It's not a construction solution but it might solve your problem.

[FossaFerox]

We use a setup like that (1" EMT with 90 deg. fittings, ball bungee anchors, silver tarps) with additional angled tarps to block the wind and help keep the whole thing anchored. Wind passes right over our structure. Only problem we had either year was with rain pooling, but that's an unusual problem and was easily dealt with by tall people "popping" the middle of each section to dump the water off the edges while other people caught the run off in trash cans (to prevent cratering). If camp had been empty it probably would have bent or otherwise brought down the frame.

We use 3 10" stakes (just big nails, really) on each of the canopy feet to keep them from sliding or bouncing, but our real anchoring for wind and what not is on mule tape guylines tied to each canopy fitting on the border. The guylines were secured with 18" lag bolts. The tarp grommets on the angle tarpswere bungeed to 14" lag bolts. We used 13 10x10 sections, plus angled tarps off three sides. Truck parked along the fourth.

Here's an interior shot.



Even when it was whiteout conditions outside, inside was fine. We still had dust on everything (because you always will) but we weren't breathing in clouds of it or anything while in our shelter, even during white out just outside our door.

[tamarakay]

antim has the best flat top setup She clamshells it. I bet she would have some tips. This past year we had a uhaul under the hut as a wind block and cooked on the side of that. Worked fine. Kept things we didn't want overtly dusty in the back of the Uhaul.

We tie dyed a cotton parachute, throw that over the hut, then cover that with shade cloth. And then lots and lots of twinkly lights. I do love the twinkles lol

[Corvus]

We use the EMT poles with footies cinched down with ratchet straps about 18" out. The ratchets are anchored with 16" straight rebar with a 3/4" ring welded at the top. The rebar is angled inward a bit and pounded right down into the ground to avoid wounds. We have a fulcrum and prybar for getting them back out again.

The roofs are 40x40 silver tarps held on with ball bungies. They have a slight peak -- 160-degrees maybe? -- so we had to poke them only a couple times during the rain last year. The worst part was that we had three set up with the roof ridges in parallel so the few gallons came down in the middle of our common space and in the border of the common space and the kitchen. Next time we'll try to catch it in a bucket. There is little if any uplift when the wind blows and the worst of the footies sank only an inch or so during the rain. We ratcheted the straps enough to take the slack out until things could be reset after they all dried out.

The walls are camo netting which provide enough shade when the sun is low and slow the winds down to a tolerable level during a blow without threatening to tear loose. Yeah, it gets dusty and it can be an adventure lighting a camp stove, but we don't need a wind shield once they're lit.

The floor are painter's canvas held down with those six-inch wire tent stakes that don't work for tents on the playa. We just poke 'em though the canvas at the edges but the tiny holes don't matter much before the canvas has to be replaced anyway. We used to use carpet scraps but they just got heavier and heavier with accumulated dust no matter how much we beat them out on a work party day held in March.

[GreyCoyote]

Final bit: if it rains, take a few bungies out of the middle of each section to allow the water to run-off. A flat-top structure works like a very nice rain-catcher, and water is heavy. Left to its own devices, it will collapse your shade structure. Last year Unjohn (with his cane no less!) saved our asses by methodically poking his cane upwards against the tarps and causing them to spill the accumulated water off. If he had not been in camp when the rain hit, it would have collapsed the structure. (He's gonna be unsufferable after this admission... you just watch. heheheh)

That was me.

Each panel of your shade was billowed down about 12"s when I noticed it, so I slogged over with my rake and relieved about 40 gallons off the panels.

And we thank you deeply for that! One man. One rake. One canopy saved! (Queue the superhero music and hand that man some white tights and a cape!)

(I also have a wonderful picture of Unjohn leaning on one cane and using the other as a canopy burper during a different rain. And another where he was beating Kowtow with it. Both were, in my estimation, invaluable public services!)

[danibel]

I started using a flattop EMT shade structure two years ago. I bought a base kit from Black Rock Hardware and then last year extended it for a "double." It doesn't need "footies" as they have drilled a hole and welded a set nut/bolt about 8 inches up from the bottom of the legs. I pound the rebar straight down and then you slip the legs over and tighten. We do use 4 ratchet straps for the corners (because we are paranoid!). It takes at least two people to put up and take down, though we are getting faster/better at it each time. I like this set up because I can pull my cargo van right under it and have shade most of the day. We use shade cloth for the sides and that is recommended to cut down on wind resistance. The top is a high quality solid tarp, which I really like for shade. We pull the van in to protect from the wind side and put a "kitchen" next to the van (a card table with a camping stove, coolers underneath).

One of our campmates built is own flattop - using the footies, EMY poles for legs, 90% shade cloth, and ratchet straps as the cross beams/anchors. His version is lighter (no cross beams), but takes him a lot longer to put up and take down. He must put in 30 pieces of rebar (a couple per foot, plus two on each corner).

I went for easy and bought the pre-built. So far it works great and the 24 x 20 is more than enough space/shade for two people, a van, and space for visitors to chill.

If you are skilled - you could drill and weld your own set nut and bolts on the legs and forget the footies.

[Just_Joe]

..... This was exactly what our old carports provided, so I'm looking for something that can replicate that for the kitchen, just with a bit more sturdiness.

A 1" EMT structure is no more sturdy than a carport (assuming Costco brand)
A 1" DIY gabled EMT with walls will cost more than a carport, even before you work through windows/door issue.

We had a kitchen carport and 20x30 flat EMT shade this year. Each served its purpose.

Use the advice given for anchoring and give the carports another try.

[lymerae]

A 1" EMT structure is no more sturdy than a carport (assuming Costco brand)
A 1" DIY gabled EMT with walls will cost more than a carport, even before you work through windows/door issue.

We had a kitchen carport and 20x30 flat EMT shade this year. Each served its purpose.

Use the advice given for anchoring and give the carports another try.

Yeah, that makes sense. I guess the appeal of the EMT structure to me is that it's so interchangeable. I feel like with a carport, if it starts to get beaten up, it's pretty much done for (unless you go through the process of replacing parts or making custom pieces). With a plain flattop EMT setup, if a pole bends or a tarp rips, you can very easily replace just that one piece - making the structure as a whole more practical for a multi-year endeavor.

The carports we had were indeed excellent, we loved them while we had them - but in our experience they were only really usable for about 3 years, which feels wasteful.

THAT SAID, you're totally right that I've learned a lot on this forum about how to anchor them better in the future - I'll definitely be adopting the X-shaped ratchet lines across each frame, plus double guylines on each corner, if we decide to use any carports again.

Speaking of which - I tried looking up the 10' x 20' Canopy carport from Costco that is kind of the classic, and couldn't seem to find it online. Do you know by any chance if it's still available in stores? Or are people using something else now?

[lymerae]

Also, tons of other great advice here, thanks so much!

Corvus, I like the idea of camo netting walls. Where do you buy yours?

Fossaferox, that's awesome - really close to what I was imagining. In the past, we haven't build shade over our tents - we just made an open shade structure for communal spaces - but if we did go for total enclosure, the angled tarps look ideal.

[Agaton]

Costco carports become available in spring each year. There is a whole long thread here on them.
But I looked at their website recently, and they showed replacement roofs available even now for a resonable price.

[lymerae]

Costco carports become available in spring each year. There is a whole long thread here on them.
But I looked at their website recently, and they showed replacement roofs available even now for a resonable price.

That makes sense. I couldn't tell if they were just out of season, or discontinued. Thanks!