Flattop shade design questions

[FossaFerox]

I think it's easier to scale up an EMT structure than it is to lash the carports together though, isn't it? We have about 2,300 square feet of usable, fully shaded space under our EMT structure. Would that be possible with carports?

[motskyroonmatick]

Thanks so much! This all makes a lot of sense. One question - if you don't stake the poles themselves at all, only rebarr'd guylines on edges and corners, does that mean that the structure bounces and shifts a bit in the wind since the poles themselves aren't grounded?

Every upright pole has a connector on it and all exterior connectors are staked to the ground with twine.

[FossaFerox]

Twine? That sounds... precarious. Consider investing in some mule tape. They use it to haul cable through ducts and pipes and what not. The stuff is dirt cheap used and rated around 1,800 lbs typically. I wouldn't recommend reusing it year to year, though. With our overly anchored structure our mule tape runs us like $40 a year or so.

[motskyroonmatick]

Poly bailing twine is bomb proof and even packaging twine is plenty strong when used with common sense. I'm very familiar with mule tape. It's good stuff.

[Gourmet]

Hi all, great posts so much learning. Thank you

have a question re flat top shade structure. I saw a post last year were someone used something between the gaps in the roof tarps to keep out the sun. Buggered if i can find it again. Those pesky gaps in the roof tarps. on the flatrood EMT style. Anyone seen any great options for filling in the gap to stop the sun shining thru?
Thanks

[Elliot]

I would not be so eager to close those gaps, because they let the wind out and thus keep the whole thing from flying off to Winnemucca. And I find that the thin sheets of sunlight are not much of a nuisance.

Oh... and... Welcome to ePlaya!

[Sunbeam56]

Elliot's flat top isn't all flat, it wedges up around Millicent.
We brought in a standard EMT flat top and tied on. His supports are huge.
In prior testing, in Texas, on the driveway, we had some bounce. That is the wind would lift the entire structure.
We beefed up the tie downs, and reduced the lateral heave by associating with Elliot's structure.
Didn't have any problems.

Elliot has been going to TTITD for a long time. Listen to him. He is both knowledgeable and kind.

[Elliot]

.
Sunbeam, you left out "handsome".

Here is my main shade. Note the harmless -- and even beneficial -- gaps. These are four 10x20 tarps.

[trilobyte]

FYI, these are called 'Conduit Frame Structures' and not flattop shade - the use of EMT conduit framework is the defining characteristic. The top is only as flat as you choose to design and build, I've done several with an angled roof using the same basic materials.

IMO, when you expand the structure you should seriously consider getting a bigger tarp for the roof (and make sure it's a heavy duty silver-on-silver tarp to ensure it'll block UV and reflect away as much of the sun's energy as possible). Gaps between tarps suck for the people whose tents are underneath them, as the sun moves across the sky throughout the day they create hotspots that can make most tents uncomfortably toasty in little time. Filling the gaps with cheap fabric or other materials is not only a pain in the but, but often doesn't stop UV. I use lengths of fabric to cover gaps at the edge of the structures, while it's better than nothing, it's still not as effective (ie cool underneath during the day) as where the tarps are.

[skippy3k]

For what it's worth, last year I did a 20'x16' EMT shade structure butted up against my trailer much like Elliot's photo. But I used a single 20'x16' tarp so I wouldn't get those "annoying" gaps. Big regret. Even though the winds were mild last year, they would blow in, hit the side of the trailer and then go straight up into the single 20'x16' tarp like a sail. And since it was a single tarp, there were no attachment points (and therefore gaps to let the wind out) in the middle of the EMT structure, causing the tarp to balloon up.

I punched two holes in the center of the tarp and zip-tied it to the EMT. That only introduced weakness into the tarp, so I sat there and watched the holes grow slowly bigger. I then used an extra 10' section of EMT on top of the roof, strapped to the EMT pole below, to "sandwich" the tarp between the two and keep it from billowing up. That tarp will this year be re-used as my hexayurt floor.

My advice, go with the gaps and use multiple tarps.

[Elliot]

In my picture a couple posts back, you can just see that there are more tarps above the bus, going off to the left. In all there are eight 10x20 tarps. This used to be one tarp of 40x40! And I kept climbing up and cutting more holes in it, but that thing was still a monster.

[trilobyte]

Skippy - perhaps it's a design issue? It sounds like you may not have been using any kind of angled side tarps? I use 3 20x30 tarps for my primary structures (and smaller tarps for others), and don't have any problems. I build the frame and then attached a 20x30 roof tarp to my kitchen structure (using ball bungees) first, then build the framework for my other primary structures. Once that's done we get the other big roof tarps on and then double-check to make sure everything's anchored properly. Then the side/back walls go on, it's a pretty smooth process.

[skippy3k]

Trilo - correct, we opted for visibility over windbreaks and were not using any side tarps. So we were open on 3 sides with the 4th side being our trailer. The wind decided to blow directly into the our area and hit the trailer broadside, sending it straight up into the solid tarp. Fortunately, we were using the lag bolt method to bolt the EMT feet to the playa, so nothing flew away. It just put a lot of stress on the single piece, solid roof tarp. Had it blew from any other direction, everything would have been ok as I think it would have blown through our camp.

In the end, I agree it really was a design issue based on our preference of keeping open sides. Angled side tarps would have worked. But since we are opting for open "walls", I think this year we are going with four 10x10 tarps (since we are expanding to a 20x20 footprint). Yes, there will be more bungies, but I think four separate tarps are easier to work with, and allow a minuscule amount of wind to escape. Every little bit helps.

[vantim]

Everyone seems to do the flattop a bit different, so I'm a bit confused on how best to anchor the whole structure. I'm using 1in conduit with the YSBW fittings, and the lagbolt anchoring method, for a 20x30 structure, an. Should I anchor with a strap straight down from the top of each outside pole, or use guylines out at an angle? Can someone show me a photo or explain how best to attach the straps to the fittings at the top of the poles? I think I'm being a bit nitpicky, but I'm here to learn from your pro experience

[FIGJAM]

X's between the legs of the EMT will be less of a tripping hazard.

Look at the carport on the right.

[AntiM]

Hey, I recognize that hot mess.

We use custom spliced ropes and loop them around the joints at the top. They have tensioners to tighten them through the week. Ratchet straps have hook, so you should be able to make a loop with that.

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[motskyroonmatick]

Hey, I recognize that hot mess.

We use custom spliced ropes and loop them around the joints at the top. They have tensioners to tighten them through the week. Ratchet straps have hook, so you should be able to make a loop with that.

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Much love for the braided loop splice!!!!

[LionsNzebras]

We are going with an EMT structure, molded after GreyCyote and Foosa's deisgns, after doing much much research.

The idea is to do a 30x20 1inch structure, using 14 inch lag bolts on footsies and the x method using ratchet straps. We are going to try and do a few sides as well. There are some other cool designs in the works using the parts from YSBW site a pipe bender and some other things...I am overly excited, but want to save it for the playa

The nice thing is you can modify, add, expand, grow, curve, build, change and create all kind of crazy for your shade structure(s). The key factor in all the designs that I have seen, talked about and heard stories over is the wind. Quality materials cost money, and to save anyone from being injured is worth the expense in my opinion.

The wind will destroy stuff, send it across the playa, into people and other camps, that is the absolute last thing anyone wants, so take your time and engineer the bejeebus out of it.

[AntiM]

Much love for the braided loop splice!!!!

Thanks! MyLarry was both a boy scout and a sailor, and even though he was an electronics technician, he took the time to learn ropework from the old boatswain's mate on his first ship. That is his handiwork.

[motskyroonmatick]

Much love for the braided loop splice!!!!

Thanks! MyLarry was both a boy scout and a sailor, and even though he was an electronics technician, he took the time to learn ropework from the old boatswain's mate on his first ship. That is his handiwork.

I recognized the tale tale signs of a planned out splice. I tought myself how to braid off of youtube videos and an old navy film was instrumental in putting it all together. I love those kinds of skills. Nice work My(your) Lary!!!!

[fernley1]

I use a 20 x 20 flat emt shade structure. I use 1 20 x 20 tarp. I retchet strap the top of the tarp cross wise to keep it from ballooning up. Worked so far. The only problem I had using a 20 x 20 tarp was last year during the rain storm, it keep collecting water and I had to use the handle on my shovel to push up the tarp so the water would pour off.

[skippy3k]

I use a 20 x 20 flat emt shade structure. I use 1 20 x 20 tarp. I retchet strap the top of the tarp cross wise to keep it from ballooning up. Worked so far. The only problem I had using a 20 x 20 tarp was last year during the rain storm, it keep collecting water and I had to use the handle on my shovel to push up the tarp so the water would pour off.

You are exactly right, I forgot about the rain last year. I had to keep pushing up on the tarp too. On the other hand, having a solid roof tarp was great during the rain.We sat on our dry couches and enjoyed the show.

I also tried using ratchet straps in an "X" pattern to keep it from ballooning up, but it didn't really seem to prevent it as much as I wanted. Maybe I just didn't crank them down enough. For me, it all kept coming back to that center...if I could get it to attach in the center, it would have been problem free.

[krly]

Just curious if anyone has put a little drain fitting into the middle of their tarp roof and a hose connected to it going to a bucket/water bottle ?

[vantim]

What makes the best guylines for this kind of structure? Are ratchet straps necessary for tension, or can strong rope do the trick? Thinking it might be good to have a bit of wiggle room or stretch for the wind. Also wondering if there are any guidelines for the strength (working load or breaking strength) of the guylines? We are building 20x30 and 10x40 flattops.

Thanks!

[fernley1]

I use ratchet straps to tie down my shade structure becouse its easy to retighten them during the week. Last year, after the rain, some of the foot pads sunk into the mud and the straps became loose. It was easy to retighten the straps using the ratchet handles. Plus, with the straps I use being rated at 750 pounds, I really don't have to worry if they are strong enough. Withv2 per corner, I think I'm good.

[skippy3k]

Just curious if anyone has put a little drain fitting into the middle of their tarp roof and a hose connected to it going to a bucket/water bottle ?

Rain is so rare, it's probably not worth the effort.

[Elliot]

I intend to put drain grommets in mine this year. Only a few minutes' work. No hoses, but I will avoid putting anything water-sensitive below those grommets.

And... in case I have not already told this.... Last year I wound up with four big puddles in the tarps that are right above the bus, and since they were supported by the bus roof I left them alone to evaporate, and a couple days later the wind came up and dumped all those gallons on the unsuspecting people below. Great fun.

[mooserider]

And... in case I have not already told this.... Last year I wound up with four big puddles in the tarps that are right above the bus, and since they were supported by the bus roof I left them alone to evaporate, and a couple days later the wind came up and dumped all those gallons on the unsuspecting people below. Great fun.

Sounds like a rude surprise I had on camping trip elsewhere where we got drowned with rain, and the older trailer's awning tore off the side of the trailer from the weight of the water.

Somewhere, I saw an RV supplier having an interesting set of arches to put under an awning to prop it up and make it convex instead of concave, so the water would never be able to pool in sagging parts of the awning. I wonder if those could be made in larger sizes to fit flat-top shade structures (and make them no longer flat).

[krly]

Now there's an idea. Have a standard flattop emt setup and underneath run a pvc pipe arch diagonally . A "hybrid hut" ? The arch would eliminate rain pooling and also allow various stuff (lights, laundry....a noose) to be hung below.
krly