Treatment of women at Burning Man and beyond

[mooserider]

*sigh* I tried to stay on the sidelines for this, but after this statement, I just couldn't do so.

Individual men, yes. Systemically, no. You don't see a system in place where men are judged on their appearance, where their job performance is judged on their gender, where their opinion is judged by the size of their boobs, and where how they are dressed plays a role in determining how a crime against them is treated. There are reams of studies showing these are all true for women, as a systemic issue.

Actually, systemically, yes. Men are judged on appearance. If you saw a handsome in-shape man in a well-tailored business suit and a older chubby man in dirty coveralls, who would you consider to be the "better man"?

OK, on gender of man versus woman, I'll concede, except in certain professions. Note how many women excel in sales jobs, even though their gender has nothing to do with what is being sold.

Re: boobs: no. For men, it's their height, the size of their biceps, and the size of their wallet that matters. Ask any short skinny guy. There are plenty of studies showing how height gets preferred treatment.

Re: how dressed: ask any guy dressed like he's from the 'hood versus a guy in a business suit.

So, it still applies. And the men on the short end of the stick aren't supposed to complain. "Suck it up, take it like a man." In other words, it should be OK that they're getting screwed by the system, too (at least in the opinion of the people on top of the system).

Are their exceptions? Of course there are. But to use people you know to make a general case is like me saying "I know a lot of gay men, so most men must be gay". Any study that uses a small sampling is bound to have errors when applied to a larger group, our personal knowledge & circle falls into that "small sampling" category.

Precisely. Just because one group is oppressed doesn't mean that others aren't oppressed, too. Nor that some of the "oppressed" aren't gaming the system for their own profit (i.e., strippers, clients of divorce lawyers).

This problem isn't going to go away until it is no longer profitable for it to exist. People maintain this system because they are either profiting off it, or are being deluded or forced by peer pressure to maintain the system. Witness the stereotypical "nice guy", otherwise known as "sucker".

Off my soapbox now....

[Simon of the Playa]

it wasnt until 1959 that women in SWITZERLAND were allowed to vote, not on the Federal level until 19 fucking 71...

SWITZERLAND....


anyway...

in saudi arabia, i think we can easily see systemic oppression of women, as we do in many muslim countries, and hindu countries, and yes, even buddhist countries.

and most "christian" nations have long adhered to Patriarchy....duh.

to say that there is not systemic bias against women is disingenuous or just fucking stupid, which one are you?

[Aurelia]

After listening to the Dean of the Harvard business school describe how women seem to prefer
a less confrontational approach I wonder...
He resolved the issue by returning the findings of their study back to the Grad school students .

xoA.

[ygmir]

it wasnt until 1959 that women in SWITZERLAND were allowed to vote, not on the Federal level until 19 fucking 71...

SWITZERLAND....


anyway...

in saudi arabia, i think we can easily see systemic oppression of women, as we do in many muslim countries, and hindu countries, and yes, even buddhist countries.

and most "christian" nations have long adhered to Patriarchy....duh.

to say that there is not systemic bias against women is disingenuous or just fucking stupid, which one are you?

I don't think anyone here, is saying that.

[Simon of the Playa]

It does to me, and i calls 'em as i sees 'em..

[ygmir]

hhmm well ok, maybe I missed something.
You do have a discerning eye and rapier wit, in which I stand shadowed, so, I''ll review and see what I missed.

[mooserider]

It does to me, and i calls 'em as i sees 'em..

I have to agree with Ygmir here. Could you quote the post that supports your statement? Because I obviously missed it.

[VultureChow]

I have to agree with Ygmir here. Could you quote the post that supports your statement? Because I obviously missed it.

I just got home... I see that Ygmir pretty well cleared up what I meant.
All I meant was anyone treating anyone like shit sucks, and women don't have an exclusive on that.
Men get treated like shit by women too.
And about the pay statistics - maybe it's a local thing but I happen to know a LOT of couples where the woman makes much more money than the man does.

There's two sentiments going on in this thread that are worrisome to me. One is that systemic issues either don't exist or are not as bad as you are making them out to be because of some experiences posters have had.

The other, which is more upsetting to me is that they might exist, but I'm tired of hearing about them and even daring to bring them up makes me feel attacked and less likely to empathize.

[lucky420]

yep ^^^

[Simon of the Playa]

It does to me, and i calls 'em as i sees 'em..

I have to agree with Ygmir here. Could you quote the post that supports your statement? Because I obviously missed it.

Precisely. Just because one group is oppressed doesn't mean that others aren't oppressed, too. Nor that some of the "oppressed" aren't gaming the system for their own profit (i.e., strippers, clients of divorce lawyers).

This problem isn't going to go away until it is no longer profitable for it to exist. People maintain this system because they are either profiting off it, or are being deluded or forced by peer pressure to maintain the system. Witness the stereotypical "nice guy", otherwise known as "sucker".

you do have some issues, don't you...thats ok...we all do...the first step is admitting you have them...



and it's no surprise you don't see it, the guilty often have no idea what the fuck they are doing until it's pointed out to them.

[mooserider]

It does to me, and i calls 'em as i sees 'em..

I have to agree with Ygmir here. Could you quote the post that supports your statement? Because I obviously missed it.

Precisely. Just because one group is oppressed doesn't mean that others aren't oppressed, too. Nor that some of the "oppressed" aren't gaming the system for their own profit (i.e., strippers, clients of divorce lawyers).

This problem isn't going to go away until it is no longer profitable for it to exist. People maintain this system because they are either profiting off it, or are being deluded or forced by peer pressure to maintain the system. Witness the stereotypical "nice guy", otherwise known as "sucker".

you do have some issues, don't you...thats ok...we all do...the first step is admitting you have them...

and it's no surprise you don't see it, the guilty often have no idea what the fuck they are doing until it's pointed out to them.

Yep, I sure do. I have an issue with the system and society that is supposed to protect people (and is charging taxes and fees to do so) that turns around and actively hurts the people who need help, regardless of what group they might fall into. And I am prepared to quote specific cases if needed. Do you have a problem with that? Or are you in favor of injustice?

I do find your automatic assumption that I am guilty interesting (since you don't even know me). Perhaps you protest too much. What are you guilty of?

I should mention, Simon, that I am in awe and respect of your demagoguery skills. You are up there skill-wise with those fanatical politician types that were discussed on some other threads here, in your ability to change the subject and re-direct the mob into attacking a totally different target. I do hope you will use your mighty skills for good and not for evil.

In any case, folks, I apologize for dragging the thread off topic. Please return to discussing the specific injustices this thread was started to discuss, and other topics can be taken elsewhere if needed.

[Simon of the Playa]

i see someone with a chip on their shoulder due to a past experience, and who blames their notion of feminism.

thats what i see.





perhaps i'm demogoggin' agin'...

or perhaps i just have a valid point, and am defending a point of view i find to be truthful.

it's all POV, quite frankly.

i also find the argument somewhat akin to when christians bitch and moan about being "picked on" when they have been and still are the dominant paradigm in this country.

[Simon of the Playa]

one more thing, and this is important.

it is my opinion that in black rock city, this problem exists MUCH LESS, as people treat people they way they want to be treated...the golden rule.

it's refreshing....i would hate to see us "backslide"...


unlike defaultia, i'm afraid...

[media]

[maladroit]

The frog thought, "This bath is quite comfortable! I'll just relax here for a while."

A considerate soul wandered by and saw that the frog was about to die of heat stroke. "I will save this frog," the bystander said, putting out the fire and throwing a few cups of cold water into the pot.

Then the frog complained to everyone in earshot about the asshole who ruined their nice warm bath with a dose of cold water.

[Aurelia]

Whew !

At last this issue is resolved

We get what we want
OR ELSE

xoA.

[VultureChow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_strike

[Lonesomebri]

Yeah, I know I am sexist, and racist and all that other stuff I picked up from existing in society. What counts is what someone does with that baggage. Make stuff worse or better? For me, I think women are superior to men, but I realize that impression is largely due to the circle I run in. I look at the women I am drawn to, they become the norm, and then I look at me. What other conclusion is there?

[ygmir]

this is a difficult, but informative discussion.
I'm learning stuff, for sure.
But, I'm seeing a phenomenon, I doubt it has a name, and point it out, hesitantly, because it's delicate and likely to be taken in the wrong light......and yet, I feel I need to point it out:

It's when a person is taking or espousing a certain subject, usually about a terrible hurt or injustice. They want, and need to be heard. And probably rightly so.
But, they use the weight of this injustice, to bully others who have their own opinions and POV's out of being heard to adding to the discussion, with their own thoughts, because this other thing is "so much worse".
No one may be saying, in any sense, the OP's subject is not important, and probably more important or horrendous, than that brought up as a adjunct, analogy, or experience, but, others thoughts and ideas are valid, and deserve to be heard.
To use the leverage of one's own perception, to silence or minimize an others is bullying, IMHO.

yeah, women and others are very much and systemically marginalized (or insert other term here), but that does not take away, or make unimportant, the experiences of others not in that "group", but who want to share their stories.

Is there not room, to acknowledge a severe problem, and I think most are trying, (even if not so eloquent as others), and still let others with similar, but maybe not with exact experiences, to join in the discussion?

To say "oh, whatever you experienced is nothing compared to me" and then marginalize their contribution, and even say it does not exist, nor matter, seems akin to what some of the original complaint was about.


*raise the shields Scotty*, *engage Tantalus field*.

[Simon of the Playa]

i'm picking up what yer laying down pardner.

i can tone down the east coast, in order to assuage certain sensibilities.

but i think we should ask the Ladies for their opinions.

much like abortion, i don't think men have any right to tell any woman what to do with their bodies.

it is not my say in the matter.

and so, i call upon our fairer sex to respond.

hopefully, with more grace, and less brutality of language.

[ygmir]

totally agree re: reproduction. I am very much a "it's none of anyones business what anyone else does, short of harming others"

I wrote this for St. Patricks day, for GPE, but it may well apply here:

if I could wright Irish Jig music.........

Comrades,we are,
this fact is true
though you vote red
or you vote blue

I give no fuck,
what dick you suck
or pussy that you eat,

A burger or organic kale
free range duck
or wild caught whale
no matter veg or meat.

so
Worship God,
Or Dawg,or Rats,
'er you love dogs
or kitty cats,

Don't kill me to convert

and come with me,
and drink wis-key
all night, and every way
roll in the dust,
and hippies bust.

oh yeah, and "Fuck Your Day"

[Lonesomebri]

rebecca_solnit.jpg

[tatonka]

A story I think Ygmir related once was some local kids came out to the playa and started cat calling the women " show us your tits" Him and a bunch of other fellows went up to the locals and yelled "show us your dicks" which shut them up.
The two times I gone to BM it was a great experience to me seeing everyone going out of there way to be nice.
As a young man I was more the chav pig guy , but as you age you find a real friend is a better lover, than one you chased down
for a one niter.

[goathead]

What would Dali think?



or Toulouse?

[goathead]

one more thing, and this is important.

it is my opinion that in black rock city, this problem exists MUCH LESS, as people treat people they way they want to be treated...the golden rule.

it's refreshing....i would hate to see us "backslide"...


unlike defaultia, i'm afraid...

[media]

Maybe they should have followed this format?

[media]

[goathead]

I guess if you feel the claims of sexism are monotonous, we feel the sexism is monotonous. You can only be in so many meetings where someone asks you to go fetch the coffee despite you being one of the goddamn fucking owners of the fucking business, before you lose your mind.

Amazing changes in the past 50 years. Back then I never would have been allowed in this position. But it cuts at your soul just a little bit every time it happens. And it hurts more when the men in your life who should care, don't.

Had to chuckle a bit at this, been here 25 years off and on, through 7 managers this go around. Yet several management types have no problem flipping me their keys and asking me to fuel their vehicles.
Caught me in just the right mood one morning at 8 am after a 12 hour shift, asked him if his fucking hand was broke. Fucking new guy grabbed the keys as it escalated and basically saved me my job.
I have been told I have a potty mouth. LMAO....
Some of them still flip their keys at me, Rob just stares at me, and I just smile and usually go fuel their vehicles.

It has made for an excellent story over the years though.

[VultureChow]

I've had fun playing with the stereotypes too. The one that comes to mind is the guy who wanted to lease space for his television studio but didn't want to pay rent. We sat through his proposal and he turned to me and said, "you should really come and see the cameras. They're big and fun. We're going to do a show like The View. You'd love it."

I mean besides the fact that that as out of my demographic by at least 15 years, even his partner looked mortified. So he said his piece and then I tore him a new one. Not about the sexist shit, but for showing me a business plan with $15 million in ad revenue and still claiming an inability to pay rent.

[goathead]

It is kind of fun isn't it.

[some seeing eye]

Some of us have been critical of "bad club behavior" - sexual assault, dosing and repeated unwelcome advances. With 40% virgins and the emphasis on dance camps, a small number of attendees think those behaviors are normal. I think it is a bigger concern than can be dealt with by simply outsourcing to the BED as a risk management play. How do we create a culture of good behavior?

[VultureChow]

i can't help but think of Simon's campaign to get the DJs at the camps to encourage moop cleanup between sets. Or designated DJs. A certain number of campers in the larger sound camps stay sober and unaltered to keep an eye on the scene.

[Simon of the Playa]

A story I think Ygmir related once was some local kids came out to the playa and started cat calling the women " show us your tits" Him and a bunch of other fellows went up to the locals and yelled "show us your dicks" which shut them up.
The two times I gone to BM it was a great experience to me seeing everyone going out of there way to be nice.
As a young man I was more the chav pig guy , but as you age you find a real friend is a better lover, than one you chased down
for a one niter.

it was me, and i believe this is what you are referring to.

Just a note: while discussing the asshat-ery of certain camps is fine, discussing ways to take torches & pitchforks after them (that may cross legality lines) on ePlaya is not. Destruction of equipment crosses that line, even if done in jest. There's enough people riled up about them that someone may take the discussion seriously.

eric is right...


i do not mean to whip up any kind of violence, merely SHAME.

shame is how we punish.....shame is how we let our citizens know they have fucked up...shame is powerful, you don't need violence or shenanigans.

i'll tell a story again.

i think it was 1998 or so, and back then the Yahoos were local boys, not the "Bro Safari and Frat Boys" that have replaced them.

two of them started hooting and hollering at some women who were topless, the typical "lets see some titties, shake that ass" kind of BS...

they were quickly surrounded by 7-8 big Bears in full leather regalia who promptly demanded to see their dicks...

they instantly understood what it was to be objectified.

i HOPE they never behaved that way again, because they were SHAMED into seeing how their behavior was hurting others.

that is all we need really to change things, the community has power in it's disapproval...