which is the optimal frame out of these?

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guerrillayogi
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which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by guerrillayogi » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:55 pm

Shade geeks,

I'm trying to decide what is the best frame design from the bottom 5 high-pitch frames on this site:
http://www.tarps.com/canopy-frames.htm

I'd prefer to avoid a center pole in the *middle* of the structure, but I'm OK with adding the center pole to either end if it significantly improves stability. What about the "reinforcement bar", do you think it would help?

I'll only be securing a 75% shadecloth (20x48ft) over this frame, so I'm not *too* concerned about wind resistance. I'll also be staking guy lines to the 4 corners, and using "feet" lag-bolted to the playa with each vertical post.

Thanks for your advice.

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by guerrillayogi » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:00 pm

oh yeah, I'm aiming for a 20x20 structure (minus dimensions lost with angled roof), using 10' EMT

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Jackass
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by Jackass » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:10 pm

flat top.
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GreyCoyote
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:14 pm

Go flat or very low-pitch. Use OPAQUE, aluminized tarps. Keep in mind a 75% weave is an SPF-4. Use nothing smaller than 1-inch tube and put an anchor and load-bearing member every 10 feet minimum. Dont use a monolithic 20x20 piece. Use a a couple of 10x20's so the air can get around it if needed. Search and learn about using lag bolts for anchors. They work REALLY well.

My 2 cents.
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motskyroonmatick
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by motskyroonmatick » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:37 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:Go flat or very low-pitch. Use OPAQUE, aluminized tarps. Keep in mind a 75% weave is an SPF-4. Use nothing smaller than 1-inch tube and put an anchor and load-bearing member every 10 feet minimum. Dont use a monolithic 20x20 piece. Use a a couple of 10x20's so the air can get around it if needed. Search and learn about using lag bolts for anchors. They work REALLY well.

My 2 cents.
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by Roundabout » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:38 pm

After dealing with flat topped shade structure and the rain last year, I am trying a pitched roof this year. With a pitched roof, don't just anchor your corners. You must also throw a rope over each end of the ridge line pole and anchor down to the playa. The lag screws with chain links work great for this.
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by EspressoDude » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:47 am

flat top roof + solid poly tarp + rain = problems.

flat top roof + shade cloth + rain = no problems. other than getting wet.
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by guerrillayogi » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:38 am

GreyCoyote wrote:Go flat or very low-pitch. Use OPAQUE, aluminized tarps. Keep in mind a 75% weave is an SPF-4. Use nothing smaller than 1-inch tube and put an anchor and load-bearing member every 10 feet minimum. Dont use a monolithic 20x20 piece. Use a a couple of 10x20's so the air can get around it if needed. Search and learn about using lag bolts for anchors. They work REALLY well.

My 2 cents.
Thanks. I wanted the pitched roof to avoid having vertical supports inside the structure. Assuming that the pitch angle distributes load to the conduits along the sides. With a flat roof, I would probably need a center pole.

Also, I already have a 20x48 shadecloth and we're trying not to buy more than we need. This also eliminates the venting problem.

Can I use the low pitch design without a center pole, if it is only 20 feet wide?

been using lag bolts since last year :)

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by GreyCoyote » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:58 am

20 feet is a really big span for non-engineered structures in playa winds. Personally, I would not attempt this. If you do, work on a way to ditch the cover in just a few seconds, or perhaps make the cover self-jettison when it gets loaded beyond a safe point. A retaining rope or two would let it flop around the ground harmlessly while keeping it in your camp. YMMV.
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motskyroonmatick
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by motskyroonmatick » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:19 pm

20 feet is a really big span. My flat top shade(40' x 40') is made up of 13' x 10' connected rectangles. It is 1" square steel tubing and I would definitely not advise a span of more than 13 feet. Watching how it reacts to wind it seems like anything more than that and I would be asking for failure. You could make an engineered truss to span 20 feet but it would probably not be very conserving of material and difficult to transport.
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by guerrillayogi » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:22 am

motskyroonmatick wrote:20 feet is a really big span. My flat top shade(40' x 40') is made up of 13' x 10' connected rectangles. It is 1" square steel tubing and I would definitely not advise a span of more than 13 feet. Watching how it reacts to wind it seems like anything more than that and I would be asking for failure.
Just curious, do you have a tarp attached to it? Is that what is making it react to the wind? I have a shadecloth with a zillion holes, so it doesn't really act like a sail.

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by motskyroonmatick » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:49 pm

It is typically all knit shade cloth. I have had a tarp on half of it with the shade cloth and it didn't really act that differently. I think the longer the horizontal frame piece the easier it is to bow and that the 13' lengths can bow and recover in heavy wind where longer lengths might bow and become bent permanently. I tension the shade cloth so it doesn't billow and catch wind. Billowing tends to tear things apart.
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by trilobyte » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:21 pm

Unless you've got a reason to need an angled roof, I'd suggest a flat top as well. Otherwise in order for proper structural support you kind of need to go the route of cross-beams, which both costs more and is more work to put together. In case of rain, the easiest way to manage runoff is to ball up a towel or other similar object and stick it directly above your center connectors. If you're doing it smart and have a vertical that's no taller than the campers with their arms in the air, it's not only much easier to set up and tear down, but you can easily lift/push any section that sags during a rainstorm.

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by guerrillayogi » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:10 pm

thanks all. I decided to go with flat-top, and use center poles every 10 feet. Particularly since our design is now going to be 20x30. I figure 10 feet between poles is plenty of space for feng shui. Got a bunch of 5-way fittings from Yuma's for modularity.

Any tips on securing the shadecloth to the mid-line? The edges have grommets that I can attach to the eye bolts or clamps. Guess we could use c-clamps but that seems like overkill. Several zip ties could potentially be routed through the mesh. What other options do I have that don't involve making holes in / damaging the weave?

xox

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by FIGJAM » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:24 pm

Bungee balls!!! 8)
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by Jackass » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:12 am

Use shade cloth grommets, put them where you want/need them. All bungee balls or elasti-cord, keep it tight as a drum.
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by Ratty » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:21 am

guerrillayogi, I am so glad you started this post. I had been trying to decide how to configure my shade. I have an abundance of parts. I had settled on the largest, tallest version with a flat roof. Now I realize that a slanted roof is more important than the extra 10 inches of height on one side. Your thread has reminded me of the time we spent poking at the ceiling to release the puddle of water. It made a huge mess and we could have avoided it by slanting the roofline. thank you.
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guerrillayogi
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by guerrillayogi » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:19 am

FIGJAM wrote:Bungee balls!!!
Jackass wrote:Use shade cloth grommets, put them where you want/need them. All bungee balls or elasti-cord, keep it tight as a drum.
yeah I know about bungie balls at the edge grommets, but what about the middle?

the shadecloth is 20x40. The structure is 20x30. Edges are easy, what about the middle?

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by skippy3k » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:27 am

Last year I went with a solid 20x20 tarp for our structure and regretted it almost immediately. I would recommend breaking it up into several tarps. So in my case either two 10x20' or four 10x10's. It allows for the wind to escape more, and is easier to attach/detach. The middle of my tarp last year kept ballooning up as the wind hit the site of our trailer and zoomed straight up. Yes, you use more bungies with multiple tarps, but what is Burning Man if you don't embrace excess?
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by Bemerritt » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:48 am

skippy3k wrote:Last year I went with a solid 20x20 tarp for our structure and regretted it almost immediately. I would recommend breaking it up into several tarps. So in my case either two 10x20' or four 10x10's. It allows for the wind to escape more, and is easier to attach/detach. The middle of my tarp last year kept ballooning up as the wind hit the site of our trailer and zoomed straight up. Yes, you use more bungies with multiple tarps, but what is Burning Man if you don't embrace excess?
This is exactly why i went with 4 10'x10' silver tarps on mine. 2 70% shade cloth tarps for the east facing side. Interested to see how it works.

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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by Jackass » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:25 pm

guerrillayogi wrote:
FIGJAM wrote:Bungee balls!!!
Jackass wrote:Use shade cloth grommets, put them where you want/need them. All bungee balls or elasti-cord, keep it tight as a drum.
yeah I know about bungie balls at the edge grommets, but what about the middle?

the shadecloth is 20x40. The structure is 20x30. Edges are easy, what about the middle?
Don't be scared, you can put grommets down the middle, it's not against the rules...
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Re: which is the optimal frame out of these?

Post by motskyroonmatick » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:24 pm

Get a couple of the 6 way connectors and you can have a flag pole or camp banner holder with some more uprights above the shade.
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