We Have a Dream Petition

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
Simply Joel
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Re: justification for funding

Post by Simply Joel » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:53 pm

nesdon wrote:Funding major art works on the playa is the heart and soul of Burning Man.
sorry, i don't agree.

radical self-expression and self-reliance are the heart and soul of Burning Man...

art is a manifestation of those two Burning Man tenets

in my humble opinion.
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Badger
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Post by Badger » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:55 pm

Posted just today to several lists:
So what are all you doing while we want for Larry to respond to all this? I think the short break has been a nice pause for all of us to calm down a bit. And I finally got some sleep last night too, for pretty much the first time in a week.

Larry was supposed to post his public reply yesterday evening, but it makes sense it is taking a little longer than expected. So many issues have now been raised, and so much discussion has happened, and the issues affect so many areas of the project, that is good he is taking his time to get his public statement right and we can all collaborate together to discuss and fix what is broken.

But as this has now propagated so far, much further than we ever expected or planned, i do hope they put his public response on the JRS, along with the original petition.

Actually, what would likely be most fair and productive for everyone at this point, would be if a "neutral" committee rewrote our proposal, axing all the incendiary language, and just leaving the content. as everyone has figured out by now, it was only incendiary because so many other efforts at regular discussion had gone nowhere and the project now seems to many of us at a crisis stage. but that language is admitedly not helpful towards the fix. so let's use all the people who have engaged it in the online forums to rewrite it as just the raw content, maybe even expanding the content a bit from the great discussions and new ideas that have arisen on the eplaya and in tribe about it.

Then put that proposal out for comment and a vote to the whole JRS. Make a proper voting webform where both voting and good comments can be recorded. That would be a much more representative sample of the thoughts of the community. Our presentation is as a petition to gather signatures from likeminded individuals. It was not intended as a vote.

If this project truly belongs to the community of participants, it seems these issues now need to go infront of the full community for some sort of discussion and vote.

Does that seem fair to all of yous?

jim
Desert dogs drink deep.

Simply Joel
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Post by Simply Joel » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:56 pm

i don't think fairness is the issue, the LLC can do as it wishes.
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jimmason
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business partners

Post by jimmason » Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:54 pm

how can you possibly say the LLC can do exactly as it please? i am completely baffled by this sort of sentiment. kinda like the "i don't want a say, i want the leaders to decide everything". baffling. simply baffling.

the LLC has done a tremendous amount of work to make htis whole thing work, but many other entities have also. don't fool yourself into thinking 6 people made this project. and this project is not a simple business. you are not buying a product from them. we are all actuality partners in a business with the LLC. we make the product together.

so the LLC must consdier the needs and desires of their business partners. if they don't, their business partners are going to grow quite unhappy very soon. actually, i think we are seeing that many of their business partners are quite unhappy already.

jim

technopatra
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Larry responds

Post by technopatra » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:38 pm


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samtzu
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Re: business partners

Post by samtzu » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:08 pm

jimmason wrote:how can you possibly say the LLC can do exactly as it please? i am completely baffled by this sort of sentiment. kinda like the "i don't want a say, i want the leaders to decide everything". baffling. simply baffling.

the LLC has done a tremendous amount of work to make htis whole thing work, but many other entities have also. don't fool yourself into thinking 6 people made this project. and this project is not a simple business. you are not buying a product from them. we are all actuality partners in a business with the LLC. we make the product together.

so the LLC must consdier the needs and desires of their business partners. if they don't, their business partners are going to grow quite unhappy very soon. actually, i think we are seeing that many of their business partners are quite unhappy already.

jim
This is a hijacking in progress... You are simply trying to hijack the entire organization by saying "Hey, it's our money they're spending! We should say what they spend it on... and they should spend it on me!" Not too subtle. Read Niccolo Maciavelli some time... in there you will find that there are much better ways to pull this hiest off. A petition? A petition? Who came up with that one?

Burning Man is a corporation (like it or not) and if they wanted to build The Man, next year, out of hundred dollar bills and torch it off, well, they can do that. IT'S THEIR MONEY AFTER WE GIVE IT TO THEM! (What system of commerce do you live under? Just curious) If you don't like what they do with their money, don't give them yours. Either that, or get together with some friends, put pantyhose over your heads, and go knock over the cash box at BMORG when no one's looking. That would be, morally speaking, more honest (and less silly) than what you are doing here.

Yeah, yeah... heard it before: Meet the new boss; same as the old boss. What are you smoking and how much of it do you smoke at a time?
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

Rian Jackson
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Post by Rian Jackson » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:28 am

All in all a fair response, methinks, though Larry did (understandably) seem mildly defensive at one point.

I'd like to hear a thoughtful reaction from the Shipyard regarding some information which i assume was unknown to them and whether this changes their stance at all.

I'd also like to hear what their plans are now - if they plan to find a way to rekindle what they think was missing from the event, if they're going to stomp off in a huff, or if they'll change nothing.

Jim? I'm all ears...
surlier than thou

Dr Feltersnatch
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The response....

Post by Dr Feltersnatch » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:32 am

I'd like to address the extremely well thought out and enlightening response from Larry and the Org in regards to the petition.

I was one who thought the original proposal was in theory a great idea, if for no other reason than to alert the Org to the growing concerns of some of the artists. Those who wrote the proposal spoke for a small sum of people representing a larger sum of people who may or may not agree with their wishes or demands.

Like it or not the Org is a corporation and they must act as one. Granted it is probably the most unique corp. on the planet. We can all attest to this. This to me comes back to the simple gripe that the grass is always greener. It can always be better, so we should therefore continue to work together to achieve this. I commend the writers of the petition to have the balls, albeit not necessarily the brains to write this. For if it was not for them writing this, we would not have been privy to many of the reasons that the art was lacking and disappointing this year. I commend Larry for releasing this information to the public. I think he has addressed the majority of the concerns in reasonable, forthright and honest regards. I sincerely hope the threats of taking their art and running if these demands are not met are rethought as I believe they will be. If not, this is very indicative of a child saying "either we play this way, or I'm taking my cool toys and going home". It is a selfish way of thinking and to me the antithesis of what Burning Man art is about.

And lets not kid ourselves, Burning Man is about far more than art. It is about art, music, dance, acting, performances, poetry, survival, mother nature, organization, forgiveness, hope, unity, expression, spirituality, examples, teaching and learning, understanding, change, fire, friends, family, lovers, community and so many other things we could never put into words. Art plays only a small role in the grander scheme of things. No one thing about Burning Man is more important than another. Let's try not to forget that.
You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star.

Rian Jackson
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Post by Rian Jackson » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:35 am

i found it interesting that with all of the no-shows, the only conclusion i can draw is that there is only one 'group' of people to 'blame' for the lack of art:

the 'artists'

paired with the suggestion that the petition came from the 'artists' it makes their claim a little hollow, despite the fact that they may not have been personally responsible for no-shows, etc.
surlier than thou

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Post by magnetichf » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:06 am

a very interesting response from larry. one point he raised that i found particularly salient was that of finances. as much as BM is about community, we all understand, either explicity or implicity, that those of us who attend the event are excluded from many of the aspects of, shall we say, "community planning" that are necessary to make the event happen. first and foremost, we have no say in the organization's budget. and really, how could we? how can you take a community of 40,000-odd members, add several million dollars, and come out with a coherent budget? the organization has to control the money. but here's the deal: once those gates open at sunday midnight, we're in control. the event each year will be no more and no less than the sum total (and of course, in some ways, much more) of what we create out there in the desert.

it seems to me that ultimately, the petition came down to money: give us more money to make more art. i'm not trying to kowtow to larry, but he had some good points: depending on how far you want to take your logic, couldn't every member of the community make a case for saying that their own contributions to the event warrant them some sort of financial compensation? if you meet someone on the playa in a really fun costume who gifts you something really special, haven't they added to your experience - and, by extension, to the community - as much as a cool piece of art? so why would they be any less deserving of funds?

also, the idea of making the funding process more "democratic" sounds good in theory until you think about the divisiveness that model can cause. you need look no further back than november 2nd to see some examples.

i don't think this issue is so cut-and-dried; art is crucial to any culture, be it BM or the default world. and i'm not espousing a tough-love, "make your own damn art with your own damn money" approach. grants are a good thing, and i think the BMOrg agrees and i think that's why we have them. hell, even the US government, in the form of the NEA, makes it's own feeble attempts at subsidizing art. however, once you start giving out money, there's absolutely no point at which you can stop and think that you've satisfied everyone. there will always - ALWAYS - be people who didn't get any, or enough. there will never be ENOUGH art on the playa. there will never be enough ANYTHING on the playa. and yet, every year, we will come back, and we will struggle, against the elements, against time, against resource constraints, and most of all, against ourselves, to try to articulate and to realize our vision of a world that can embody our hopes, our dreams, our passion. BMOrg is doing what i can to aid in that struggle. if nothing else, this petition will hopefully succeed in letting them know that some of us would like a bit more help. but at the end of the day, it's up to us.

Simply Joel
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Re: business partners... i don't think so.

Post by Simply Joel » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:21 am

jimmason wrote:how can you possibly say the LLC can do exactly as it please?
within the law, it is "their" organization.
jimmason wrote: i am completely baffled by this sort of sentiment.
it isn't sentiment, it is fact.
jimmason wrote:kinda like the "i don't want a say, i want the leaders to decide everything". baffling. simply baffling.
once again, no... i don't want the leaders to decide... 'cause their aren't any leaders. the group of LLC members lead, for all intents and purposes, by committee. yes, larry does make decisions, but it simply isn't his nature, in my humble opinion.
jimmason wrote:the LLC has done a tremendous amount of work to make htis whole thing work, but many other entities have also. don't fool yourself into thinking 6 people made this project. and this project is not a simple business. you are not buying a product from them. we are all actuality partners in a business with the LLC. we make the product together.
yes, so go forth and prosper... yet your name isn't on the documents creating the LLC.
jimmason wrote:so the LLC must consdier the needs and desires of their business partners. if they don't, their business partners are going to grow quite unhappy very soon. actually, i think we are seeing that many of their business partners are quite unhappy already.

jim
sorry, i don't feel as though i am business partner with the LLC, i am a participant in the burning man community.

and one of my responsibilities to the community is to strive towards self-reliance while remaining a contributing member of the community.
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Zulegoona
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Post by Zulegoona » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:24 am

To be fair to The Shipyard for not responding right away, it is a good time to take some time and chooses words carefully. Maybe even give some thought of what has been written, and how things have come down. Any response should be well thought out or it will end up like so many other family arguments around the Holidays people needlessly harming a relationship just to win the fight.

saulmelman
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Response to art petition & suggestions for art improveme

Post by saulmelman » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:08 am

A warm hello from Brooklyn, New York.

Over the past week I have read the ”We have a Dream” art petition including many of the “petition supporter” responses and related correspondences.

As a former granted theme artist, “Johnny on the Spot” 2003 and “Jadu Beta” 2004, I would like to add my ideas to the collective as a participant but more importantly from the perspective of a previous Burning Man artist.

The issues are many. I appreciate your attention.

One of my favorite “petition supporter” comments is by David “Yo-Yo King Capurro” who writes, “ Huh? What’s burning man?” (Friday 19th Nov)

Clearly Burning Man is not what it used to be. But it appears the common denominator that unites many, irrespective of position on the current political brouhaha, is that the art at Burning Man is of great importance.

This is good news for art.

I’ve gone to the festival consecutively since 2001. I thought 2001 – 2003 were all strong years for art but like many others I was disappointed by the variety and quality of the art this past summer.

Although I appreciate Jim Mason’s (as well as his “petition supporters”) passion to improve the art, his ideas at their suggested most general, contradict his true democratic aim and I believe demonstrate an oversimplification of the arts administration process. In addition, his solutions do not reflect the artistic experience of what it entails to execute art on or for the playa. The proposed plan will not “fix the art”.

I think it is very important to consider the fact that the grant funding process that is being so harshly condemned is only 5 years old. During this time much has changed at the festival. One year of a lesser art showing, the result of which is multi-factorial, should not mandate a radical alteration of the process.

Be patient. Offer constructive criticism. Inflammatory and pugilistic rhetoric only serves to divide.

Change for change sake or to assuage ennui and resurrect nostalgic feelings is a false panacea and will wreck the progress that had been made.

Despite the “poor” showing in 2004, there were some very strong advances made this year with regards to the art making process that participants may not know about. One great example was the noteworthy improvement of the relationship between the hardworking DPW staff and the art department that is sure to benefit artists in the future.

I think that the people on the petition pining for the art from years ago should remember that there was no grant process before 1999. Perhaps the great “radical democratizing” should be to return to no art funding. This in my opinion would be unfortunate as grant funding truly offers an opportunity to make work that would otherwise not be realized. Perhaps the prize of money has corrupted the participants.


My thoughts on the petition.

Funding decisions through direct vote.

Organizing an event where artists share proposals with the community sounds like a nice idea. But the ‘art selection party’ designed to affect the subsequent electronic vote primarily benefits those artists able to attend.

When fair competition rests on equal representation, to suggest that for artist’s ‘too far away can have reps, videos or some other stand ins” simply does not equate with the power of having the artist share their proposal in person. It is an offense to the artist who has worked hard on his or her proposal who cannot be a part of the important process.

Moreover the event does not take into consideration the fact that many in the Burning Man community who would view the proposals, do not live in San Francisco.

Burning Man is no longer solely a West coast nexus.

The “art selection party” idea is biased and is inconsistent with the author’s general democratic intent of the petition.

If the “art selection party’ were eliminated as part of the proposed two step voting process, the idea of having artists showcase their ideas on the Burning Man website for a popular vote is a more democratic option.

This is a compelling idea but ultimately one that I strongly believe will bring the quick death of art on the playa for the sake of “releasing the power back to the participants”.

The risk of electing art (or anything for that matter) by popular vote will increase the probability that there will be a predominance of art with immediate appeal or ‘the neato factor’ and not much substance.

Making art on or for the playa is difficult. Ideas for projects must be accompanied with a sound plan for execution. This aspect, “ How I am going to build my project ” of the grant process in not unique to Burning Man. The Burning Man organization requests very little in comparison to other art grant procedures in this regard and offers significantly more money than most. Do your own research and you will find that “the hoops” many people are bemoaning are inconsequential.

And so the question,” Who amongst the voting population is going to read the entirety of all the proposals that are going to be posted on the web?”

Even if we are to trust that everyone who assumes the responsibility for voting reads the length of all proposals (my proposals were 15 pages each) that is not still not enough.

If one has little experiential knowledge of what it entails to successfully execute construction on the playa, the voter majority, how can one be qualified to decide what should or should not be granted?

It seems obvious that you can’t unhinge the art selection process from those with playa construction experience whether this constituency is part of BMORG or not and that is what the popular vote will accomplish.

An art project elected by popular vote lying in pieces on the ground is popular garbage.

Other important ideas to consider in regards to the direct voting concept are the implausibility of separating who has (and owns) the money from who is allocating the money and legal issues that ultimately the BMORG is responsible for such as safety and compliance with local and federal law.

Guest Curators

It seems presumptuous for Jim Mason to claim that Larry and Ladybee are bored of their “Art Monarchy”. Larry and Ladybee have always seemed very enthusiastic about the art to me. Nevertheless, an annually elected curator (s) as described by the petition seems appealing at first as well. However, unless BMORG has the ultimate decision, the popular direct voting process for curators falls victim to the same pitfalls as described for artists above. Moreover, unless monitored by BMORG, the proposed curatorial system would be a rich garden for favoritism and totalitarianism. Far from Jim Mason’s democratic design.

It is an important oversight in Mason’s proposal that there is limited mention of the immense amount of ‘behind the scenes’ work put into the production of the art for the festival. Curating is more than just the glamour of conceiving of a plan and picking the art. What visiting curator (s), completely ignorant to the system is going to be able to quickly step in and assume the full breadth of curatorial administrative responsibilities in an effective manner with or without the flavorless duties of the grunt “art council”. Curating is a full time job and it takes time to learn how to do. Who is going to pay for it?

Among other under appreciations in the petition are the incalculable. Jim Mason writes in ‘Jim Mason’s response to Ladybee’, that “Ladybee suggests a couple of tweaks here and there and all will be fine showing once again that her head must be buried deep in playa dust.” I disagree with Mason’s interpretation of Ladybee’s suggestions but would agree that at times I have seen her and her art associates with their heads deep in playa dust. This summer when my crew and I were being ravaged by the unrelenting pre-event dust storms it was Ladyee and others who appeared during these torments to cheer us on and help us achieve our goal. These visits were much appreciated.

10% for Art

Apparently Mason is well acquainted with the accounting books of BMORG and is a member of the LLC.

Okay. More money for art may help. But more money for art doesn’t necessarily equate to better art. Just more.

Distribution of increased funds into art infrastructure not just the grant pool cache is important. The art tour bus is a good example of how money invested into other art enterprises improves our experience of the art.

In summation, the ‘art selection party’ is not democratic. The implausible concept of direct voter art and curator selection is likely to lower the quality of the art, increase the chance of failed projects, and will kill the growing efficiency of the art department by replacing it with a bureaucratic Hydra.

Themes

The themes are hardly “regimes of absolutism” as Mason would have us believe. In fact, he negates his own words in his next sentence when he writes, “most of art has little to no relation to the theme.”

Answering the challenge to a theme offers a context for the artist, unifies the collection as whole and as a viewer is interesting to see how different artists solve a problem.

However, funding art just because it reflects the theme in some way is a good way to lower the quality of the art.

In this regard, I agree with Jim that it would be good to see interesting non-thematic art funded.

Fund strong theme and non-theme related art.

One of my favorite pieces ever was a non-thematic work from 2002; a brilliant musical sculpture made of PVC, rubber bands, fishing wire and plastic cups. (This piece influenced the design Jadu Beta – who ever made installation thank you.)

General Suggestions

Work within the young and growing system. In my experience when discussing contentious issues with BMORG if you converse in a level headed manner they listen and respond.

Over emphasis on interactivity with installation art limits artistic expression and makes art into easy-to-forget entertainment. Participants seem to want more than just cool toys to play with. Let interactivity be part of the art when it makes aesthetic sense and continue to fund strong work with limited “traditional” interactivity.

The performing arts are a critically important aspect of the festival. These arts are very under funded and should be supported more.

Most importantly, the way to have better art on the playa is for artists to create better work. Artists are the ones who need “to fix” the art.

Would be Burning Man artists need to do more research on art exhibited from previous years so we don’t see similar projects rehashed. For this reason, I think an expanded database on theme and non-theme art related should be accessible. Artists need to have reasonable expectations for art grant funding and imagine creations that can flex to available funds not the other way around. Dream of the mindful, reasonable impossible and I believe BMORG will consider it.

Artists need to fulfill their contractual promises. Finish the project on time so the community can have more time to appreciate the art and clean up the site after the festival so DPW doesn’t have to and so future artists don’t get punished (approximately 50% of the artists didn’t clean up their sites this year despite contractual agreements. BMORG in a generous letter agreed to absorb these costs but it will understandably make contractual agreements more difficult in the future).

Russell Wilcox posted two solid essays on the theme art list. The essay entitled “How do artists get paid in a gift economy” is of particular interest. Wilcox contends that if BMORG recognized artists with “gifts” such as an artist-viewer open forum, artists would feel more appreciated and thus be more inclined to make art.

Although this idea portrays the artist’s primary drive to make art for ego applause it is a good suggestion in that it will serve to bring artists and viewers together and make everyone feel more invested in the art which is one of the central goals of the petition.

In his essay, Wilcox seems to indicate that these “gifts” do not exist. Rather the opposite is true. In the past several years there has been a progressive increase in the amount of forums where artists may be recognized and/or interface with the viewers. The pre-event theme art website, regional pre-festival events, JRS announcements, BRC Gazette articles, BRC radio artist interviews, the art tour bus and the artery gallery are such examples.

I think Wilcox’s suggestion is a very good one and we need to send the message that we want more of this type of community. An open forum panel discussion between artists and participants in center camp would be amazing.

Artists and art lovers need to unite and work with the BMORG in order to further the development of art on the playa to make Burning Man the vanguard for creativity it is now poised to become.

As “petition supporter” sssssSassy declares, “The arts the thing.” (Tues 23 Nov)

Thank you.

Saul

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The petition

Post by Roo » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:20 am

Hey all,

I favor change. I did sign the petition, with the understanding (and statement) that I DON'T agree with many points in it.

For whatever reason, there was a lack of art on the playa last year. Most everyone noticed. Most everyone acknowledges it, too. I claim not to know the true reasons behind the deficiency, because I'm sure a lot happened from the pre-planning, to planning, to set-up, to opening day.

I don't want to see the Borg canabalized. I'm not trying for a piece of the pie. I have PERSONALLY never applied for a grant, nor will I. My group and I have worked with the Borg before, the last three years in a row actually. All I ever recieved was a free ticket in 2003. (which I'm still thankful for).

Coming from this backround, noticing the lack of art in 2004, I'm pushing for a resolution of whatever happened to stop the flow of art to the playa surface. Some say it's restrictions from the Borg, "hoops to jump through". Some say it's weather-related problems, problems with machinery, etc.

I'm not interested in the politics of Burning Man. I have enough to worry about everywhere else. One thing I do know is that if there is a problem, and it is never addressed, no changes are made, it will continue to be a problem. Therefore, SOMETHING has to happen.

I don't claim to hold the answer to the magic SOMETHING either. Haven't figured it out myself.

I hope this clarification of my own feelings and intents doesn't invite a firestorm of flaming indignation posts down upon my head.
"fire spinning is the hackey sack of the new millenium" -me

technopatra
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Post by technopatra » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:16 pm

Per Saul's request, (via LadyBee I have deletd his duplicate posts nad mreged his response to this thread.

Hawk
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If you can’t afford your art can you afford a trip to SF?

Post by Hawk » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:58 pm

There are some good ideas in the body of the petition like more money from the gate to go to art grants, grants for non theme art, and less focus on the BMOrg’ s definition of “interactive” when making decisions on what projects get funding.

As for the whole voting thing, never going to work and the bureaucracy will end up draining money out of the art program.

I also found the whole idea of all artists that want to get funding have to go to San Francisco to be ridicules. I think this is the most telling part of the petition and the motivations behind it.

I thank everyone from San Francisco who helped get this thing off the ground but it is not a San Francisco thing, or a California thing, or USA thing, it is fucking Burning Man and it is bigger than any one city, state, or country.

This is one Burning Man artist that won’t be adding his name to the petition

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Woodrow
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Post by Woodrow » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:17 am

You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead
Hey! It's me!!!

scubapenguin
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Post by scubapenguin » Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:27 am

While I agree this past year there was a lack of art, I find this petition drive to be one of the poorest efforts at protest I have ever seen.

IMHO, their flawed logic goes like this...
Larry H and BMan Org go through the trouble of setting up BMan.
They take responsibility for using the funds to provide for the event,
including everything from Insurance to Potties.

But, this group of "Dreamers" has chosen to call Larry and Co. the BORG (A derisive name culled from Star Trek - how original)attack them via this
manifesto, and then demand they be given 10% of the proceeds from BMan.

If BMan Org doesn't agree with this demand, they will just pack up and go
elsewhere.

Hmmm, let's see. It looks like this to me.
1) BMan Org has money.
2) I don't have money to fund my own artwork.
3) Because I didn't have money, I didn't bring my art this year.
3) So let's threaten the organizers so I can get money
4) If I don't get my way, I won't bring my art next year either.
5) I'll just take my non-existent art to some non-existent alternative
event.

This whole petition smacks of arrogance, self centeredness and incredible
myopia. I for one am opposed to it.

Just my 2 cents
Brownie.

jimmason
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Post by jimmason » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:09 am

fascinating air ball.

you actually read any of the documents or ensuing discussion scubapenguin?

your post suggests a complete misunderstanding of lack of acknowledgement of most every issue and topic under discussion here.

would you like to read the docs and discussion here and on tribe and try again?

j

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Post by Chicken John » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:43 am

test

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Post by Chicken John » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:32 am

To Hawk and others,

Just to clarify, having an event at Somarts or the like that is webcast is actually BETTER than the current system. In the current system, there is no event for people to look at the art. The only people who look at it are Larry and Lady Bee. Who are in SF. Your arguement makes little sence. Have an event, web cast it, have people send in there videos, proposals, drawings, posters... whatever. We have video cameras spit it out to a live feed, then the whole thing ends up on the web for people who can't be in SF to look at. Again, I remind you that this would in no way be diminished from the current system, it onlly adds parameters to it. The current system, only 2 people here in SF look through written proposals ( or DVD or whatever). Nothing is taken away from the process, only things added. If it is true that there is a deadline for the proposals to be in, I see that as the date of the show. If it is true that there is 2 people looking at proposals then why not everyone. If it is true that Black Rock City is a city then we should vote like every other city. If it is true that BM is an experimental, radicly collaberative and inclusive art festival then I can't see why we shouldn't be experimenting with this an other things. If it is true that we wait for one man to say yes or no to our pleas it is because one man has the power. If it is true that one man has the power and will release none of it and must keep a stranglehold on the art process of the event and will not in any way budge or reconginise that we have a valid point and that we who have been here for so long and contributed so much who wish only a more comfortable parameter so that we can contribute even more still.... then we come to an impass that leaves us little choice but to, unfortunatly, find a more comfortable place to do what we do. Unless we can come up with some way to feel more comfortable we will have to not go. Which is not what we want. We want to make the art. We want to have the party. We want to meet the people. We want to have a pride that can only be had in partial ownership. We are used to having that pride and it has been stripped away. We aren't asking to change things to a new system, we want more or less the old ways back; when we were valueable. We used to be needed. We used to be loved. We used to be treated with respect. We used to feel like a family. Now, we feel like slaves. Slaves to the man. Experimental art festival indeed... the gig has found a low road and is losing many of it's core people. We feel that guest curators will end nepotism and give the event an much needed international feel. Let the MOMA curate a year. Let Smith college do a year. Anything. The possibilitys are endless and the fact is there is a great deal we are not doing. It's embarrasing that I have to write here SCRAMING at the top of my lungs that BM is in trouble, don't you see it? Are you all blind? If you can't see that this event has started to eat it's own tail then you are not paying attention. So yea, people bicker and bully one another. People post stupid, opinionated responces to things they don't read. Some people don't have logistical forsight. Some people have done a ton for the event. That's the deal, though. The event is open to all, so we have to be patient. Answer every question. I'm confident if we just keep telling the truth calmly, steady and straight that in a very short time we can all agree on enough and all the people will agree that something has to be done.

In this confusion and chaos I see.... oportunity...

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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:35 am

it is "opportunity", you spelling wizard

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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:49 am

Simply Joel wrote:it is "opportunity", you spelling wizard
I'm suprised you did'nt say anything about "SCRAMING ".

Anyhoo,

Chicken John hit on something that I have been working on, It just may be a solution. I hope it makes everyone happy, but first I would like to run it by the org and webteam before I make any mention on any message boards.

Hope the ideas keep flowing here and everywhere.
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:55 am

DVD Burner wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:it is "opportunity", you spelling wizard
I'm suprised you did'nt say anything about "SCRAMING ".

Anyhoo,

Chicken John hit on something that I have been working on, It just may be a solution. I hope it makes everyone happy, but first I would like to run it by the org and webteam before I make any mention on any message boards.

Hope the ideas keep flowing here and everywhere.
SCRAMING seemed to obvious.. and by the way, "did not" is abbreviated as "didn't"

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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:01 am

Are you sure you are not married to IVY. :lol:
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Post by Zulegoona » Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:11 am

I do have a lot less problem with MOMA or other institutions professional curators, working with Larry and Ladybee in the granting and placement process than I would have with insider groups doing it. If nepotism is a problem exchanging one set of buddies for another doesn't really change things. Also with a professional there would be no need to bring them up to speed in the curatorial process and in fact they might have great ideas to make the process work better.

But
I still don't see how changing who does the granting or placement has any effect on an artists inspiration, as has been suggested.

Working within parameters of environment and site is common in creating public art as well as other parameters regarding a commission. Which in effect you'd be doing if your looking for a grant. Money always has strings, if your paying the piper you get to call the tune.

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Post by Rian Jackson » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:38 am

Let's have a word about inflammatory language.

Chicken John and Jim, the language you use is pretty overblown. To read what you post here makes it sound like there's going to be an apocalypse. That, paired with your apparent stance that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, and still at other times that everyone agrees with you is disingenuous at best.

I work with tough international politics. One of the things that I have learned is that sometimes, it you want people who disagree with you to hear you better, you have to avoid the hot button words. Sometimes that means not calling something ethnic cleansing or genocide, even if it technically is. Almost always that means not making unjust, overblown comparisons (like throwing around the term 'Nazi') even where there is a grain of truth. For those that disagree with you, it shows that you are immature and not analyzing the situation.

Chicken John, your above post did exactly that.

My response?? Go. Take your art elsewhere. Those of us who are not so much driven by ego will stay and slowly transform the event for the better without your petty, childish antics.

BTW folks, on the PM note: friendly overtures to Jim fell flat. LadyBee had the decency to respond to my PM to her. If I'm choosing (and God, it's sad that it because Jim et al seem to envision themselves as a new elite, it's gotten to this) between Jim et al - who think i'm scum enough not to bother with my input - and LadyBee who, never having met me, seems to think i'm a viable member of this community - i'd lean toward LadyBee. Just sayin.
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sorry

Post by jimmason » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:21 pm

sorry i didn't answer yet rian. i'm fielding something like 200 email a day. not everything gets answered. there is simply too much. i am only one. i'm trying to keep up. but i can't. i'll answer your note soon.

sorry for the delay.

j

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Post by Badger » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:13 pm

The cheap shots at spelling and grammar are unfortunate - especially given that this is one of the few remaining threads on e-playa that're still worth investing ideas and opinions on. Surely retorts directed at some of the ideas that have been brought to the fore are worth investing more in than jacking on someone's writing skills.
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Post by DVD Burner » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:23 pm

Badger wrote:The cheap shots at spelling and grammar are unfortunate - especially given that this is one of the few remaining threads on e-playa that're still worth investing ideas and opinions on. Surely retorts directed at some of the ideas that have been brought to the fore are worth investing more in than jacking on someone's writing skills.
I think it's unfortunate in any circumstance on any thread but that's just me.
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