It's SHOWTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:16 am

(from Chicken John)

OK, I'm done. I had been arguing my point with it in mind that anyone who sees my point will agree with me. A reasonable assumption. It is in my humble opinion that some people will argue with the wind. Also a reasonable assumption.

But now I'm done. I think everyone see's my (and Jim's) point. So we don't have to argue about it anymore.

You're all fucking wrong.

The time for talk has ended. Now is the time for the showman to do what he does best.

It's SHOWTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all I'd like to thank all of you for giving a shit enough to stir it up with me. Your all awesome and I'm proud to be putting my energy into the event after all these years of not, and all this has helped to power my pepper. So thanx. I owe you all a beer.

Now what, you ask? You'll see Tomorrow. But you have ALL helped make the parameters of what we are going to set in motion. Time for everyone to put their art and money where their mouths are.

Chicken John, signing off

(and jim too)

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:24 am

OOOhhh my head............

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:28 am

Ok Ok....that one was a little bit gross.

this better?

still.....Jeeeezzzz ......my aching head.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:33 am

All joking aside though.......

Have you gotten a chance to read what LadyBeeSF has written?

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... &start=150

Just curious.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:40 am

(copied from tribe, but addresses the same discussion that has happened here)

Ok, I've now had my nap and I've reconsidered my previous decision to give up. i can't. i can't just give up to all you community-istas and walk away. i care too much to just say "fuck it" and walk away.

I am no longer going to tolerate all of you shitting on that which is sacred in this event. Shitting on the sacred is wrong and it must stop. The ugly truth is that we were here first and there are more of us than there are of you. We were supposed to gently take you by the hand and show you the secrets as you joined us for this experiment in temporary community through collaborative creative work. But somehow we didn't do our work, and you have gotten ahead of us and off-track for a moment.

Papa bear, technopatra, LadyBeeSF, DVD Burner, samtzu, Tancorix, scubapenguin, Simply Joel et. al. you are not respecting your elders, nor the sacred which they discovered in the desert long ago. They came upon it like a water hole for a thirty desrt caravan, and a mirage it was not.

Michael Michael, John Law, and Larry Harvey stumbled upon this waterhole, while wandering with many of their friends, and they found it to not just be good water for dusty throats, but also the best water they had ever drank. They were generous and they passed it around. They said, "here, come and join us for an impossible journey of creative exploration, in the harshest of environments, with few resources and a dearth of ability, while we work together to create glorious art."

And in this coming together to do art, or all types and flavors, by toiling together in this crucible of shared creative exploration, they found the strongest communities and interpersonal ties they had ever known in their lives. They all decided that this must be the sacred. And this they made the soul and center of buring man. And it is now our vehicle- the vehicle of art towards community.

They vowed to protect this vehicle and truth and they did so very well for many years. But for some reason it has now become somewhat ragedity and disshoveled. and for even more unknown reasons, the protection of this vehicle has now fallen to our hands, the hands of idiots.

Papa Bear, your heebeegeebee healers would not exist if it were not for the art. In fact, the event would not exist today if it were not for the art. It is great what you do, and I'm glad people enjoy it, and you shold continue to do it with vigor, but it is not the central vehicle of this social experiement. The central vehicle of this social experiment is art. Without it, all this would never have been. And without it, all this soon will not be.

Ladybee, as the director of the art program, it disappoints me to no end that you cannot stand up here to speak and defend these truths. you have left it to us, the unwashed masses out here, to do it for you. shame on you.

So the mass of people who have gathered around this petition stand to defend the primacy of collaborative creative work as the soul and sacred center of burning man. We also stand and invite you in to experience this stronger and deeper truth that awaits you. We don't want to exclude anyone from it. In fact, the point all along was to give this away to ever larger groups of people. But somehow we missed you. Somehow you got around us and off on this pernicious tangent of insta-community, empty of content, under the vague banner of burning man. And now we invite you forward for a more rich experience and community, a more lasting community, a more truthful community.

We invite you forward for a community based on deep collaborative art-making. The door is always open. You are welcome to walk in and join us anytime you want. But rest assured, we are not walking out.

Jim

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:56 am

Ok Ok so I should have said "posted" not written.

Does that put me in the shoulda woulda coulda club?

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:58 am

I have a suggestion: Maybe we should just stop calling it "art." Seriously.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:12 am

Papa bear, technopatra, LadyBeeSF, DVD Burner, samtzu, Tancorix, scubapenguin, Simply Joel et. al. you are not respecting your elders, nor the sacred which they discovered in the desert long ago. They came upon it like a water hole for a thirty desrt caravan, and a mirage it was not.

Michael Michael, John Law, and Larry Harvey stumbled upon this waterhole, while wandering with many of their friends, and they found it to not just be good water for dusty throats, but also the best water they had ever drank. They were generous and they passed it around. They said, "here, come and join us for an impossible journey of creative exploration, in the harshest of environments, with few resources and a dearth of ability, while we work together to create glorious art."

Whoa! did you just put me in with the likes of who you put me in the likes of?

I'm flatterd. I dont think they will be.

What did I do to earn the respect you givith me.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:14 am

who wrote that anyway? when did their Burning experience start?

I think I may have been underestimated at the same time praised.

natthebat · Post by **natthebat** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:22 am

Here I am!
I feel emotionally abused. I kinda' like it. I see people get inflamed on the topic and then they throw their best shots. Yea! People willing to fight for what they believe in. Or if you don't like to fight then maybe you just care. It's good to care. As for me, myself, personally I will continue to say exactly what I think, all in the name of whatever might happen.

I can't wait until tomorrow.

Love Nat

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:42 am

I'm in love.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:58 am

dvd burner.

nat is 24. she is feeling passionate about the issues. she is offering content and feeling to the discussion- not emotocon spamming. i have yet to see a single post from you in this entire discussion offering content of any type. you have distinguished yourself from everyone else here in this respect. congratulations on a string of probably 50 posts, each one competely content free.

cutting the lecherous "i'm in love" comments to nat would also go quite a long ways towards you looking like less of a prick. this is now the second time you have wandered off on this imaginative tangent.

please go back in your hole.

j

ps- and can you please make that godfosaken little white hip hop guy stop spinning around by your name. i'm surprised i havne't thrown a fucking brick through my own monitor by this point. it's worse than the fucking microsoft paper clip guy. namaste

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:01 am

I guess you like her too huh jimmason?

I like what she say's and how she says it. Very persuasive she can be.

Papa Bear · Post by **Papa Bear** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:21 am

[This is also brought in from tribe, as it is a direct response to Jim's message addressed to me. Apologies to those who would prefer entirely original content; in this case I just wasn't sure how best to rephrase things, and I think it's a discussion that would have taken place here instead had the ePlaya not gone down for an extended period.]

jimmason wrote:
Ok, I've now had my nap and I've reconsidered my previous decision to give up. i can't.

Good. I'd hoped you would reconsider, as I would have been quite disappointed to see you go.

Jim, I am not in any way disrespecting artists or the importance of their art. If I have been at all unclear on that point, let me clear that up now. I have great respect for those who sacrifice their time to create art out there, whether or not they get funding. Blood, sweat, tears, and a whole lot of passion clearly go into those efforts in addition to money. I take my hat off to each and every one of them.

If anything, I think the saddest result of this discussion is that some of the artists who worked their asses off this year may be hearing the message that what they did wasn't good enough, rather than that we wish more people would be as inspired as they were, and that more people would put in the effort each year.

But even so, I can't sit here and pretend that art is the alpha and the omega, the only reason that anyone attends the event. Especially not when several people have come out and made it clear that they have other reasons for participating. To do so would be to call them liars.

Respecting the motivations and contributions of one group does not require disrespecting the motivations and contributions of another. I'm not arguing that the community aspects of burning man are more important than the art. I'm simply arguing against the notion that the event has to be about one single thing for all people. You seem to see this as a battle of art vs. community, where I don't see that the two are at all at odds. If anything, they're complementary.

In fact, if you define art as "any act of creativity", then community is a natural byproduct of art, and we have no disagreement at all. But that's not the way this discussion has been framed -- it hasn't been about art as that grand (if nebulous) umbrella, but rather about the role of and support for "big art" in the sense of large playa installations.

The more we go around and around on this, the more I wonder if the true philosophical difference is not about art vs. community, but rather about organizational structure and responsibility. I'll try to state that difference here. I apologize in advance if I'm misframing your arguments -- that isn't my intent, and I'm quite open to correction.

You believe that the purpose of Burning Man is big art. Further, you consider it is the responsibility of the LLC to inspire and support the creation of big art. If you there isn't enough big art being created, or if the big art is not of high enough quality, then the LLC has failed to do its job.

I, on the other hand, believe that the purpose is individual self-expression. That may manifest itself in small ways (personal costuming), large ones (big art), or in other ways that might seem more oriented to community rather than a classical definition of art (critical tits, the human carcass wash, the heebees, etcetera). However it manifests, if I feel there's something important missing from the event, responsibility for creating it falls on me and me alone. I can't expect someone else to do it for me, and if it doesn't happen it is my failing, not anybody else's. For me, the responsibility of the LLC is to ensure the event continues to happen and otherwise stay the heck out of the way.

The two viewpoints are not completely incompatible, though if either were taken to an extreme we'd have a dramatically different event than we have today. Whether that would be a good thing or not is a matter of individual opinion; I suspect most would prefer to keep it in the gray area in between, with a little nudge one way or the other.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:30 am

Gloves off. This is nothing more than a power hunger egotistical art snob trying to barge his way up to the table to try and take over BM's grant process, or if that can't be done I betcha he's trying to start an alternative to BM. Showtime? What's up with all the games? The posts on here would make a psychiatrist pause; there's something fundamentally wrong here.

And to put art above anything and everything else? You mean my 3 years of participation mean nothing if I didn't create art? That's how I took that, and I don't intend to take it lying down either. Whatever "show" you have planned if it continues down it's current hostile, elitist, art snobbish path, don't expect smooth sailing for it. Expect some fierce resistance...in fact it starts now. It's time to organize and get moving.

And one last thing, whomever is writing those posts SERIOUSLY needs to go back and read the history of this event. It's clearly apparent that the writer of that last post has forgotten a few things and is speaking out their ass.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:42 am

well, i wrote the post. and i was there for a good deal of the history of the event. in fact, if you read the "this is burning man" book, you will unfortunately have to suffer through an entire chapter on all the stupid shit i've done out there.

i'm still stunned people see this as a power grab. we've said again and again that we woudl refuse teh guest curatorship or funding on principle, should these changes happen. chicken doesn't even go to the event. i haven't made a big project in 4 years, but plan to this year, on my own dime.

there is no power grab going on. there is an attempted power give going on. there is an attempt to loosen the centralization of power in the llc and better distribute it amongst all those who contribute value to the event.

it odd to be accused of trying to be the next dictator when what we are propopsing is RADICAL DEMOCRACY and NO SPECIAL ROLES FOR JIM OR CHICKEN. IN FACT NO ROLES AT ALL FOR JIM AND CHICKEN. IN FACT, NO MONEY AT ALL FOR JIM AND CHICKEN.

how can i make this more clear?

anyways, i've been up all night. i'm going to sleep now so have at me for the next 5 hours or so while i'm asleep. i'm an easier target when i'm lying down . . .

j

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:03 am

So far from what you have posted jimmason and what I have read in your PM's, I have to say........You are a Joke.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:04 am

jimmason wrote: anyways, i've been up all night. i'm going to sleep now so have at me for the next 5 hours or so while i'm asleep. i'm an easier target when i'm lying down . . .

j

What are you like when you are awake?

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:08 am

jimmason wrote:

I am no longer going to tolerate all of you shitting on that which is sacred in this event. Shitting on the sacred is wrong and it must stop. The ugly truth is that we were here first and there are more of us than there are of you. We were supposed to gently take you by the hand and show you the secrets as you joined us for this experiment in temporary community through collaborative creative work. But somehow we didn't do our work, and you have gotten ahead of us and off-track for a moment.

Papa bear, technopatra, LadyBeeSF, DVD Burner, samtzu, Tancorix, scubapenguin, Simply Joel et. al. you are not respecting your elders , nor the sacred which they discovered in the desert long ago. They came upon it like a water hole for a thirty desrt caravan, and a mirage it was not. (Emphasis by Samtzu)

This statement is not only a perfect example of arrogance (which is always rooted in insecurity); it is also off the topic.

Your original petition was a money grab... boiled down, it said "It's our money and we want it to spend as we see fit!" Your petition is trying to open up the safe at BMORG to... YOU! ... so that you can spend it on your ART! . All well and good. Like I said before, if you feel that way, don't give them your money to attend, but instead, spend it on your own event and get other people to invest their money in it... their money, at that point, becomes your money and you can spend it any damn way you please. Or, try this: file for an art grant with BMORG the same old way that everyone else does and hope for the best. You claim to be trying to level the playing field, but you are not: you are simply trying to get to the front of the line. I would suspect that, given the opportunity, if you were offered every penny slated for Playa Art, you would take it and never look back, and not give a thought to any other artist who may have applied for a grant. Sorry, Jim. You reek of greed.
And now, this new tack you are presenting is heading into an even sillier (if possible) direction: "This is our event because we were here first". Please... where did these delusions of grandeur come from? Are you even listening to yourself? You are now claiming ownership of Burning Man simply because you attended before a lot of other people did. Do you think that just because you 'discovered' Burning Man before anyone (even Larry?) that this gives you ownership? Or even wisdom? It gives you history, but as we know, history is simply the memory of events past, not the ownership of the present. You might ask any Native American about that.

Your tone was condescending, but so what. Most arrogant pontificators are condescending. I suspect that they feel an elevated tone creates actual elevation, putting them above those they are speaking to. Well, in this case it makes you appear to be a first class idiot, resorting to cheap rhetoric, when a good dose of logic would work better for you. If you are trying to win people over who you need to sign your petition, let me give you a clue: DON’T SPIT ON THEM FIRST!! THEY WON’T APPRECIATE IT!! Trust me, it is not politically expedient, and what you are involved with here is Politics, with a capital “P” (oh, and don’t pee on them, either). Again, please read your goddam Machiavelli!! Either that, or get a good scriptwriter who has. You might actually win some people over to your side that way.

PurpleKoosh · Post by **PurpleKoosh** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:08 am

Tancorix wrote:...or if that can't be done I betcha he's trying to start an alternative to BM.

Waitasecond...isn't that what Larry says he hoped for all along? People taking the parts of the event that spoke to them and making events of their own, for more people to find and enjoy?

I'll admit that I'm not following this discussion in depth, as I have far too much shit going on in my personal life to expend that kind of energy anywhere else, but that just really caught my eye.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:11 am

We really need to ignore this .....so and so. ( To put it politely.)

He's really not worth it. You should read the PM's he sent me outta left field.

Let this thread drop to the bottom.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:17 am

Ok, you answered those questions and I thank you for it. But to marginalize any contributions that are not specifically art shows someone has lost focus of what the event really is on the ground for some of us. And it's insulting, at least that's my perception of it.

Now back to the "it's Showtime" comment. Showtime for what" Why the games? Do you honestly expect to be taken seriously by making statements like that? If this is about community, why is there a need for a show?

While your intent may be good, the way you're communicating makes myself and others wonder what's going on here. That's why I throwed those questions out there. People are wondering.

I'm going to step back, cool off and think about this some more but I feel better getting those questions out there. I hope the Q&A also answers questions some of the lurkers have.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:20 am

Purple Koosh, you're right about Larry's comments. But what I'm referring to would be another festival held the same week and from what I'm hearing, literally within visual range of the existing BM pentagon area on the playa. Two competing events, almost side by side. That's not necessarily a good thing for either one, imho.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:21 am

Tancorix wrote:
While your intent may be good, the way you're communicating makes myself and others wonder what's going on here. That's why I throwed those questions out there. People are wondering.

I said the very same thing to this......so and so...

about an hour ago before he made such idiotic statements. It's really not worth it.

He is a.....bofoone.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:24 am

PurpleKoosh wrote:
Tancorix wrote:...or if that can't be done I betcha he's trying to start an alternative to BM.
Waitasecond...isn't that what Larry says he hoped for all along? People taking the parts of the event that spoke to them and making events of their own, for more people to find and enjoy?

He will have the same results as Lizwiz.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:28 am

mr samtzu, how can you read the above ALL CAPS committement to not wanting the money or the role and then say we want the money or the role? we are proposing RADICAL DEMOCRACY, without us at the center. how does that then put us in the center? we don't want to start another event. we like this one.

baffling . . .

i really need to go to sleep now. you guys fight it out while i'm asleep.

if you want to look at what i've contributed to the playa look here:
www.whatiamupto.com

if you want to read what i think about the event, spoken when i'm in a less exhausted and incensed mood than i admit to being right now, you can read the chapter from the "this is burning man" book
http://www.twbookmark.com/books/64/0316 ... 19167.html

thanks,

jim

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:28 am

I don't see him as a buffoon, I see him as a threat and I'm going to leave that statement hanging as is..with all that it implies. One other note, this is not Rex Skates we're dealing with here. He does have a voice and the ability to influence the debate that warrants respect. And with that, I'll try and shut up again.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:40 am

jimmason wrote:
if you want to read what i think about the event, spoken when i'm in a less exhausted and incensed mood than i admit to being right now, you can read the chapter from the "this is burning man" book
http://www.twbookmark.com/books/64/0316 ... 19167.html

thanks,

jim

How is it that Burningman has so many .......so and so's that always come up with this "This is what burningman is" attitude? I always thought and have constantly heard that Burningman is many things to many people. The other thing that I heard constantly is Burningman is what you make it.

Is'nt there threads here where people have tried to explain what burningman is and from what I remember these threads are still going?

I dont really find him to be a threat. let him go ahead and do what he is gonna do. He's just gonna make burningman bigger. Burningman will spend less money because he will gather more resources that will help Burningman.

Now that I think about it.......Yeah. Go for it jimmason. Burningman can use your help.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:45 am

To top it off he does'nt want to finish what he has started. He needs his beauty sleep.

MMWWAAA ha ha ha ha ha.

He is rather funny.

LadyBeeSF · Post by **LadyBeeSF** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:00 am

Indeed. Jim, please don't rewrite our history for your own ends.

The event moved from Baker Beach to the Black Rock Desert in 1990, and many of the original players did not make art, but contributed in other, equally important, ways. The art was central, but it was not the sole focus of the event, which was never intended to be exclusively for or about the art. Those interested primarily in making art went to Desert Siteworks, an early 90's art event in the same desert.

Jim, why do you need to divide the community over the irrelevant issue of art vs. community? There's no need to make the art more important than the other elements of Burning Man. It's pointless.

Forgive me if I have a different opinion than you. Am I to feel, as you say, "shame" for not defending YOUR truths? Sorry, I don't.

It's SHOWTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's SHOWTIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

please go back in your hole

how can i make this more clear?

Re: how can i make this more clear?

"speaking out their ass".....