I have a F@*king dream too!

[natthebat]

I'm so tired right now. Excuse my bad spelling. Did my first dumpster dive this evening. It was Burning Man related and I'd do it again. Needed some card board for a spray painting project.

I've been following the petition for the last few days. I have been thinking obsessively about it. I support it and this is why;

I'm 24. I have a 6 year old daughter. When I was younger (about 6 years ago.) I was an artist. Because of my own changes I rejected all art. I couldn't paint or throw pottery or draw. It was dark and it was painful but I did not know what else to do. (For the record my daughter is beautiful and she is brilliant and she is encouraged to paint on her walls.) Inspiration came back. It always does. Because I'm human and humans rock. It was like a ton of bricks hitting me when I realized, at Burning Man, that I am still an artist. Self proclaimed and proud of it. I love to create and build. I also love to look and feel.

At Burning Man I got to feel what it was like to be valued as nothing more or less than a human. It felt so good. I have never been more beautiful than I was on the playa. I have never seen so many beautiful humans. A real city of dreams for one week. Just beautiful. It pierced my heart and now I bleed creativity. Hay you guys! I'm bleeding here! Shit it's getting all over the rug! Oh no, it's on the walls. Help I need somewhere to put it. And there you were, ready for me when I needed you most.

I found you when I got home. My people. Without question you taught me and accepted me and included me. There is more than Burning Man. I take it with me when I'm not on the playa. Out of respect for the life blood you gave, I want to bring it back to the playa.

I want the ability to participate on a bigger year-round level. I want the ability to vote, in some way. I want to communicate directly with the top. Not just in my shouting-in-the-wind e-playa posts. I want more and I'm not sorry or ashamed to ask. I will do my part.

A city without art is DEAD! Art is many things. The community is made around the community's need to build things and concepts. A bunch of people in the desert does not a Burning Man make. We must always be growing. lest we be dying.

In 11 years I will take my daughter, my masterpiece. I know you will recieve her like you did me. In time she too will grow to value the limitlessness of the human potential. The we don't care if it's hard, we will find a way spirit. How do you move the big rock? I don't know, just move it. Figure it out or call your friends. You better move the damn rock!

Off to bed for me now. I have a lot of love for this community of beautiful people. I support this proposal and I thought you should know. It's a difficult but good thing. Lets negotiate, but first lets support the movement. Read the proposal, read both sides. I voted for potential, motivation, inspiration and participation. I'd like to vote more.

Love Nat

[Mister Jellyfish Mister]

Hi Nat. Thanks for your post. Just as I began writing this my two lovely daughters snuck up and asked me to play a game, ganging up on me with questions. My youngest just cheerfully asked "Dad, what should I be when I grow up... a work person? I used to be a musician, but it seems that is most of what they knew of me, until the burn.


Because this has been a good year in my job I was able to affort to build a Mutant Vehicle. Yes, I dumped some long green into it. But the real support came from a new burner friend here in town who has the wisdom, vision, technical skill, and an acre of "junque" from which I could fill many of my needs for raw materials.

I have read the "dream" patition and some of the discussion and I am still undecided as to how I feel about it. I would be willing to pay more for a ticket if I knew it was going to art, for sure.

I know that great artists through history have not let financing stop them. Some of the greatest musicians played junk instruments and had to bend the strings in to tune. Salvador Dali did some great work painting on cardboard and wooden planks in his early years.

You and I are artists because we have decided to be.

Apple records was a brainchild of The Beatles. They spent tons of English pounds on artists that may have been better off learning to play their instruments through struggle and practice, just as the fab four did in Hamburg. Sure, there were some good things that came out of it, but mostly just some luke warm ideas with lots of money thrown at them.

So here it is... how good is the idea at it's core? Is the art worth making? How many hours a day do we devote to our craft, regardless of outside funding? Does art have to be big to be good? If the rotating decision-makers make good decisions, we may have something here.

Lastly, Nat, if you and your daughter felt strongly enough about making art, would you devote every other weekend to knocking doors and selling magazines or whatever to do it?

Tough questions, I know. If I did not like you so much, Nat, I would not bother.

With love,

-Jellyfish.

[technopatra]

I want the ability to participate on a bigger year-round level. I want the ability to vote, in some way. I want to communicate directly with the top. Not just in my shouting-in-the-wind e-playa posts. I want more and I'm not sorry or ashamed to ask. I will do my part.

Have you ever actually tried to contact anyone at the Project? It's easy.

Get involved - volunteer and be a part of the decision-making that happens every day of the year: http://www3.burningman.com/people/

Or write a letter and someone will read it:

Burning Man
1900 - 3rd Street
San Francisco, CA 94158-2502

Or send an email to "questions {at} burningman {dot} com.

(email is obscured only to prevent spam, but you can figure out the address from this.)

You may not get an immediate response due to the holiday season, but whoever you address it to will see your message.

(p.s. we do not vote at Burning Man, because majority voting dismisses the concernes of the minority. We come to consensus.)

[natthebat]

Thank you for having thoughts you guys. I will try to respond now.

Jellyfish dear,
You asked many questions that made me think. This is what I think;

JF; "How good is the idea at it's core?"
Nat; If you're asking how good the proposal is, I think you need to understand the proposal at it's core. I believe the core of the proposal is democracy. Considering the fact that people are willing to let idiots like W. sit in for real leadership, I do not expect people to value the right to vote. For me it's about the right to vote, an idea that is good at it's core. I'll go more into it when I adress Technopatra later.

JF; "Is the art worth making?"
Nat; yes

JF; How many hours a day do we devote to our craft regardless of outside funding?"
Nat; We devote as many hours as we are inspired to devote. Sometimes none. Sometimes we care so much we hurt ourselves to finish the job. I think the fact that Burning Man gives any money away is so wonderful. To me it's not about the grants or the process of recieveing one but the community having a more powerful voice. A forum for a voice called voting. Giving more money away like 10% insted of 4% is an idea that may not be truly possible. After all the org. is not getting rich on this event. That information has been made public. But for the org to increase the grant budget to it's maximum potential is a gesture of great importance to those who may need money to create what otherwise could not exsist. How the money is destributed is something I would like a say on. I'll adress Technopatra on this topic too.

JF; Does art have to be big to be good?
Nat; No, it does not. The definition of art is something I care a lot about. As I have said before, anything that can be loved can be art. You must find the art. The art/love of driving, the art/love of manipulating your parents, the art/love of eating sushi. If you love it you will find the art. The art at BM is in everything. The radical freedom and how to survive. All of it art. I want to see the big art. More importantly I want to see people thinking big. Not just the people who did it before, maybe me someday. I guarentee that I will bring something this year and while it may not be big and funded, it will be good. It will be art in my opinion.

JF; "If you and your daughter felt strongly enough about making art would you devote every other weekend selling magazines to do it?"
Nat; There's a lot of art in selling magazines. In fact just the other day I had some girls come by. The one in charge was so good I let them in, bought a subscription and convinced her to teach me a dance. When I was grilling her she mentioned that she was a performer. I hope my contribution adds to her empowerment in some way. I hope that if I were selling magazines someone would buy them. As it is, I have no intrest in door to door sales, I could not do it. I refuse to invest in the art of doing it well. But I will do what I have to do to create when I'm inspired to create.

Technopatra,
You do not vote, you come to a "consensus?" A general agreement is the definition of consensus. This agreement I supose is better than the open invitation to a vote. Like hell it is. How long do I have to "volunteer" before I get to really participate in the decision making happening everyday? You say, "voting dismisses the concerns of the minorty, we come to a consensus." How do you come to that consensus? Is it a matter of head shaking and everyone lets Larry Harvey decide how much head shaking is going on in a given direction. Sounds like a vote to me. A vote that doesn't include me or represent me. Here at the eplaya I have a voice. I will volunteer because I love Burning Man. Look I'm volunteering right now, hoping to stir the minds of the community to care about voting. Consensus my ass. And thanks for the invite to participate. When I write my letters I will tell them you sent me.

All my love, Nat the Bat

[Rian Jackson]

actually, just out of a deep interest and many years working in varying concensus formats, what model do you use? what about blocks? stand asides? just askin....

[Bob]

I have a dream, too -- Nat the Bat submitting a proposal for decorating Larry's golf cart. Would save me the trouble.

[Badger]

actually, just out of a deep interest and many years working in varying concensus formats, what model do you use? what about blocks? stand asides? just askin....

No consensus modeling based on traditional format I can tell you that. It gets too burdensome whenever you're working with a group greater than 8-9 to function efficiently. I know there are purist who suggest that there are instances when such a model can work with 20-40 people such as Quakers. That might be true if your body is a close knit, very tight and traditional AND their availabel continuously for discussions around both the process and the question put to the floor. But because most groups in BM are working with a volunteer core of people who have only limited time available to volunteer their services pure consensus just doesn't work. Although blocks and stand asides are possible means available to someone absolutely opposed to a proposal I can't think of any instance in which we've ever used them within the Ranger ranks. Actually, I've never heard of any other group having to deal with the question but I don't believe that's out of ignorance of the option.

[ckburn]

Technopatra,
You do not vote, you come to a "consensus?" A general agreement is the definition of consensus. This agreement I supose is better than the open invitation to a vote. Like hell it is. How long do I have to "volunteer" before I get to really participate in the decision making happening everyday? You say, "voting dismisses the concerns of the minorty, we come to a consensus." How do you come to that consensus? Is it a matter of head shaking and everyone lets Larry Harvey decide how much head shaking is going on in a given direction. Sounds like a vote to me. A vote that doesn't include me or represent me. Here at the eplaya I have a voice. I will volunteer because I love Burning Man. Look I'm volunteering right now, hoping to stir the minds of the community to care about voting. Consensus my ass. And thanks for the invite to participate. When I write my letters I will tell them you sent me.

Nat,

With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand the concepts of consensus-based decision making. I'm not a huge fan myself, but I have seen it work very well within the Burning Man organization. It bears little resemblance to 'majority rules' voting, I can assure you. There's a pretty good overview of the concepts, including advantages and disadvantages, available online here: http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocu ... ensus.html

As far as your question of "how long do I have to volunteer", I can tell you that I was helping to make decisions on the Burning Man tech team within minutes of going to my first tech team meeting. Within minutes of beginning my first Black Rock Ranger shift, I was helping to defuse a tough situation on the playa. The second year I volunteered as a Black Rock Ranger, I was helping to formulate operational procedures. So there's your answer: within minutes you can make a difference. I realize that you already are, by participating on e-playa, and I respect that. But I also see many people who seem to think that volunteering requires that you know someone, or at least that getting in on the real action requires that. It just isn't true, and my experiences volunteering on the playa and in the SF office have proven that. I'd be happy to share more detail on that with you if you have any interest.

curtis

[Badger]

There's a pretty good overview of the concepts, including advantages and disadvantages, available online here: http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocu ... ensus.html

Interesting that you should reference this. My trial by fire facilitating within a consensus based group was ACT UP/San Francisco (the original one) during the late 80's - early 90's. Talk about riding a tiger. Have to say that they are one of the few groups who walked the walk but having a single, common vision for the group (stopping AIDS) helps a lot. Most experiences in blocking and step asides usually were around issues of engagement at various high profile demoinstrations.

Thankls for posting the link.

[natthebat]

Thanks everyone! I will do all the necessary research before I respond. You've given me a lot to think about.

I want to decorate Larry's golf cart. It would be so beautiful. Hay, maybe you guys could vote on it!

Talk soon!
Nat

[technopatra]

Technopatra,
You do not vote, you come to a "consensus?" A general agreement is the definition of consensus. This agreement I supose is better than the open invitation to a vote. Like hell it is. How long do I have to "volunteer" before I get to really participate in the decision making happening everyday?

You say, "voting dismisses the concerns of the minorty, we come to a consensus." How do you come to that consensus? Is it a matter of head shaking and everyone lets Larry Harvey decide how much head shaking is going on in a given direction. Sounds like a vote to me. A vote that doesn't include me or represent me. Here at the eplaya I have a voice. I will volunteer because I love Burning Man. Look I'm volunteering right now, hoping to stir the minds of the community to care about voting. Consensus my ass. And thanks for the invite to participate. When I write my letters I will tell them you sent me.

All my love, Nat the Bat

Nat, as others have provided good info and experience with volunttering and the application of concensus within the Project, I'd like to draw your attention back to my question:

Have you ever TRIED to contact anyone personally? I hear much ranting about the inaccessibility, the decisions made without your input, the uber-control that Larry supposedly has over all decisions, etc etc. It appears that you are taking the reports of others, rather than have any experience on your own. My experience was that it was very easy to talk to folks here. Have you made any effort, yourself?

For that matter, have you even tried to contact Jim Mason or Chicken John to understand the greater goals and significance of the petition, and what they really are doing here, rather than taking the petition at face value without any desire to delve into the passion, experience, and bigger picture about what it is supposed to really accomplish?

It's a wonderful talent to be able to learn from the experience of others, and most people do not possess it, but if you are unwilling to question this secondhand information, your debate is only rebreathing someone else's air. Your stated position and tone to-date indicate this is happening. I believe you have better critical thinking skills than this and would like to see you use them.

While you have some very strongly stated opinions about volunteering, decision-making, and representation in relation to Burning Man, it is very clear that you do not know how they function. I appreciate that you are planning on thinking about what others have shared with you here. Let me share with you what I know as it applies to my volunteer group, the web team.

As various needs within the event planning and communication arose, small volunteer groups popped up, usually started with 1 or 2 people who saw a need and jumped in to help. Now we have about 70 volunteer groups. Some, like the web team, meet all year round. Others ramp up closer towards the event.

When I joined the web team 4 years ago, there were about 5 people on it. I kept coming to meetings, engaging in discussions, picking up tasks here and there, crafting communications to the group, helping us come to agreement. Thus I inadvertently became one of its leaders.

The decisions that required discussion ranged from deciding what information we wanted to provide in the site, how we could design it, who could do what, what technologies we should support, etc etc and have since expanded to how we can help the community connect with one another, how we can support the regionals, how we can protect ourselves from attacks from outright enemies like the stopbm.org folks, and most recently, how we can best introduce new people to our culture and bring up the level of responsibility of veterans to reduce the yahooism and disconnectedness we saw this year. Some of these are simply decided. Some of them start snowballs that effect a soecific volunteer group, sometimes the Board needs to be brought it to proivde more history, insight, perspective, or details. Sometimes it stays with them, sometimes they inform us what to do, sometimes we inform them. It totally depends on the situation.

As the team and the seriousness of some of our efforts grew, leaders started appearing. They all started as volunteers (as did Larry and the rest of the Board), all were distinctive for their commitment and attendance, their willingness to keep picking up work, to help others to learn, and their interest in and ability to look at the bigger picture. We started a council of these leaders based on their skills set, the ability to spend more time working on this, and their willingness to be held accountable for the volunteers they support, and for the work those volunteers do.

(Given the varying levels of responsibility, some of these folks are paid. You simply can not rely on a volunteer to spend 12 hours of their Friday after Thanksgiving working to restore a hacked server. That requires a level of accountablility that is inconsistent with volunteer work.)

When we have decisions that need to be made, we bring them to the table at a meeting. Or, just as often, a non-leadership-oriented volunteer brings them to the table. The issue is presented, and everyone can throw their two cents in, and debate as needed. We usually have between 10 and 25 people at a meeting, and only those who are interested get involved in the discussion.

We try to make this as inclusive a process as possible, but we only include members of our own team because they can understand the bigger picture of how any changes affect the workers and the system (site, extranet, subdomains, etc) as a whole. Most of our volunteers are local, but we have provided a live webcast and an IRC chat for our remote folks (sometimes 2 people, somtimes up to 10) so they can still participate. We have one IRC channel set up strictly for the notetaker, so that everyone can see the same details in front of them, and one for open chat. (usually several folks at the SF table are logged on, and are communicating directly with the remote folks, so someone else can raise their hand and ask a question make a comment by proxy. It's imperfect but it's the best we've come up with so far).

The idea of consensus within this group works this way: we agree to move forward if no one has strong objections to a particular decision/course of action. You don't have to entirely agree, but if you absolutely hate it, we come up with something else. Very infrequently do we bump up the decision to the Board.

Ok so why did I take you down this road when you probably don't care how each group works, but rather, are concerned with the bigger policies of Burning Man?

I want to argue your assumptions that a) Larry exerts uber-power over everything, and b) that volunteers have no power in the process. There are a lot of people who work very hard to put this thing on, and there have been a lot of loud yet ineffective people who come and go. But anyone with respect for the group, a good idea, and the ability to express it gets heard on the web team. And whenever relevant, we will bring it to the Board, if the person hasn't done so themselves.

There is a certain amount of credibility that you have to earn amongst your fellow volunteers to become part of the decision-making bodies. Personally, I feel the same credibility has to be earned to decide what gets funded, and there is no way to accomplish that by voting.

Here is how I translate most of your argument:

By declaring "it's my event too" you are declaring a truth. Everyone has a stake in Burning Man, the event and culture. And everyone can express their stake by acknowledging the reality that we have to answer to various governmental agencies that make us have to impose a layer of regulation, and play along with the registrations etc. so that we can still get together in the desert.

By adding "therefore I should be able to tell you where my money is spent" you are declaring a fallacy as truth. You are merely demanding that you be able to tell the groups who make it possible how to run it without informing yourself or others of the very real logistical issues it involves or the acknowledging the work it creates for the already overworked infrastructure or coming to help with that work.

The Project makes the event allowable. Ultimately, that is all we do. We make it so that the governmental and locals will allow you to come to the desert. We make sure you know when & where, we pass out as much info we can about doing it responsibly. We make sure that law enforcement views us kindly enough to not be more aggressive than they are. We make sure that the health department can't come and shut everything down. We make sure we can take care of you if you fall off of some scaffolding, or imbibe that which you cannot handle.

That we provide money for art on top of this is already rather fiscally unsound. We could do a lot with that money, like paying the full-time workers a living wage, providing benefits for the part-time folks, hiring more support staff so that things that take months to accomplish with volunteers could take weeks with employees, buying servers that won't break down, buying commercial software rather than relying on freeware, etc etc etc.

The Project makes sacrifices to provide this resource. The people who work for the Project make sacrifices to do so, earning far far below market rate in a stupidly expensive metropolitan area, which for some means embracing poverty. The volunteers who work sacrifice a downright unnatural amount of personal time and resources to provide this for you and everyone else, often putting off their own projects. And we can't claim credit for a brilliant art piece, or a phat themecamp.

I do not in anyway deny that participants are what make Burning Man great. That is your responsibility, that is that tacit agreement you make when you buy your ticet "I will participate and contribute somethind wonderful.

But we make it happen at all, and everyone once in a while in this "debate" I would like to hear some semblance of acknowledgement that the work it takes to do so is not as trivial as the petition makes it sound. Jim and Chicken know this, and they wrote the damn thing.

Villainize the Project, Larry, me whatever, as much as you want, but if you can't understand this basic, basic fact, then you don't deserve to even ask for a vote.

[Badger]

TEST-i-fie sister.

Well put.

[natthebat]

I don't think I have felt like this in a really long time. I feel humbeled and truly misunderstood. Like a little bat shot out of the sky.

Technopatra, I never ment any dissrespect to you, the org or anyone else. If I have truly offended anyone I am sorry. It was never my intent.

Burning Man is only about 6 months old to me. My only education in how things really work there, is my experience as a newbe, the This Is Burning Man book, the Beyond Blackrock documentary and the new friends I have made. Experience is what I lack. No I have not tried to contact you yet. I have tried to express my deep love for the work you do. That is why I support the spirit of the proposal. To date, I have used a tone that could understandably be taken as dissrespectful.

Today I was thinking about formulating a thesis on the currently used practices of consensus based decision making at BM and how it could allow for more people to participate (voting). My own adaptation of that part of the proposal. I am clearly not ready to do that at this time, but I will. I will let my critical thinking skills be tested, based on what I know and what I can figure out. I will take this chalenge on because even in my ignorance, I wholehartedly support the motivation, participation and survival of the community

But for now...

First, I would like to hopefully dissarm you by expressing my feelings for the event and everyone involved with making it happen. Second, I would like to express my understanding of the proposal's spirit. To conclude I will beg for your cooperation.

In june My best friend Brook called me and said, "Hay, for labor day weekend lets pack up and go to Burning Man." I said in complete ignorance, "OK! What is that?" She explained as best an open minded person who has no clu could. As time passed I got really excited for no reason. Like I had been accepted already and the collective energy was pulling me along. Somehow we knew it was important. The moment I got off the ship I was home for the first time. I have never fit in anywhere before. A few weeks before the event I asked my friend Christella what I was getting into, what I should bring, etc.... I said, "what is it all about, sum it up for me?" She said, "radical self-expression." I was instructed to participate and bring costumes and water. This is all I knew.

It was so amazing to me. It touched me like I needed to be touched. Turned me on and left me on. When I left, I was alive and strong again. When I got home I accidentlly found a burner community through my new found desire to learn how to spin fire. Without question I was accepted and valued and taught. The way parents are suposto take care of their children. I was thrilled to find many other people who feel it like I feel it. My boss, hearing nothing but BM this and BM that, got me the book This Is Burning Man by Brian Doherty. I got to read the stories and understand the history. I was inspired to care about a cause and selflessly contribute to it. The cause, I believe is saveing the world by teaching the people to care, take responsibility, share, love and create. I learned so much there and I try to apply it to the outside world. You are the only group of people who has ever accepted me without question. I almost started to question my acceptability.

Now I find myself fighting, not with you, but for you. When I read the proposal I see it as a bomb placed by masterminds. I signed it. Not out of support for the detalis and technicalities (which you have proven are important, you have also proven my ignorance to them.) It was out of support for the spirit of participation that I did sign. It is my belief that the writers of the proposal are completely aware of the true workings of the BMorg. They have contributed for years and earned their place. The bomb they placed was actually for me. And it's an honor to be blown up by them.

In conclusion, I still support the petition and the proposal. I will push for a negotiation. Please don't be mad at me. Please accept that change leading to more involvement in the community, could revive the magic that many people feel is gone. I can't imagine ever comming down from this and the thought that it has happened to others is sad beyond words to me. It was my intent to dissarm you, but now I feel naked and exposed. That takes some balls to admit. I hope I'm safe.

I will get back to you on my thesis. I think I will need a week.

Love Natalie

[Rian Jackson]

Natalie:

Not to dissaude you on pushing for what you want in the large BM structure (though we may find we disagree on things) but you might think about this:

most of the time when we make change, it's at a local level. Glad you found a loving regional to make your home in. I think you have a lot of dynamism that will impact people - especially when you use it to directly touch people's lives.

just sayin'.

cheers!

[samtzu]

Natthebat wrote:

Please don't be mad at me. Please accept that change leading to more involvement in the community, could revive the magic that many people feel is gone. I can't imagine ever comming down from this and the thought that it has happened to others is sad beyond words to me. It was my intent to dissarm you, but now I feel naked and exposed. That takes some balls to admit. I hope I'm safe.

Please feel safe... and don't feel anymore naked than you feel you need to; that is always a dangerous position to be in. I am not angry at you, and I doubt anyone else is, either... I have actually enjoyed our exchanges... and I hold nothing against you, I have simply disagreed with you. If anyone else is angry at you, they need to grow up, period. This is a discussion over art, not the fate of the entire world.

If you want, head on over to the Bar on the General Discussion Board and we can 'virtually' hoist a few with the other denizens. Everyone is welcome there. You might enjoy it.

[technopatra]

What a thoughtful response, Nat. Thank you for sharing your first time with us. I am thrilled and delighted that you caught fire so quickly. Consider me disarmed.

I think the thesis idea is a fascinating question. The bigger, and imo more relevant, question is whether the Project has the power to infuse new inspiration based on funding decisions or themes or registration systems, whether participants have a voice or not. I don't think think so.

I appreciate the "any change is good" attitude held by the petition authors and many of its suporters. I too feel that neither my social nor art experiences were as groundbreaking and mind-blowing as in years past (2004 was my 6th, btw). But the overall positions taken by the authors, blaming the Project and its staff for inhibiting artistic expression by having a theme and having specific people curating the grant process - smacks of the same "my BRC experience someone else's responsibility" mentality that is, in my opinion, the crux of the problems we are now facing.

I won't argue the petition - it is a piece of art in and of itself, even if it's still an in-joke.

But I again encourage you to consider your own experience before adopting someone else's. Did you feel inhibited at the event this year? Did you feel your personal inspiration stagnating? Did you feel stymied, over-structured, imprisoned? Did you feel you were denied the opportunities you wanted? Did you have negative interactions with other newbies, old-timers, artists, performers, Rangers, Cafe staff, EMS, whomever?

I am not as old an old-timer as Jim and Chicken (who, btw, doesn't even go to BRC anymore, tho his investment and contributions to the community are undeniably huge) and I refuse to mourn for glory days which I did not live. I really, truly do not care what it was like back then - there are so many factors that make it impossible to and undesirable to relive that past - the sheer size, the neverending attenttion from law enforcement, insurance issues, land and water right disputes, the list goes on.

Now if we look at reinventing the future - well okay. This I am down with. But taking away the personal contributions of Larry & LadyBee are no way to go about it.

I have spent hours talking to Jim and Chicken and Larry and others about all of this. I do not claim to have the better mousetrap, but I can honestly say that incendiary and exciting as it is to get all riled up and demand this that or the other in the name of art, I felt the eplaya thread Bringing Newbies Into the Fold to be a far far more inspiring, relevant, and practical way of improving the event and increasing the quality of art.

Here we have, in the old-school, DIY fashion, a loose group of folks who saw an issue, and are rising to the occasion to solve it creatively, energetically and artistically. THIS is what Burning Man means to me.

Perhaps we need a more public acknowledgement of just that - there are as many Burning Mans as there are people. My experience will never be what theirs was, and vice versa.

[regynalonglank]

maybe i don't understand everything that's at play here, but it seems like if people aren't happy with the way the funding works they are free to go out and get their own. corporate sponsorship, fundraising, there are many other sources of income besides the org. if the artists spent their efforts raising money instead of rattling cages they might get more return on their investment...just a lowly newbie's opinion, but there you go. i'm a dancer. dance never pays, you always have to get money from somewhere, because ticket sales ain't gonna do it. funding your art is part of making your art. i thought burners were all diy and shit. so why are they yanking at the purse strings instead of going out and making it happen themselves?

[tonytohono]

Hear hear

[dragonfly Jafe]

I agree with Technopatra that bringing Newbies into the fold is the key. Merely moving dollars around won't do it - even if 100% of the ticket sales could be spent on Art, that alone would not be enough. Because everyone would EXPECT something then. An entitlement. Passivity. And it would never be enough to satisfy the masses.

And if NO money from the BMorg were spent on Art, that would not matter if everyone in BRC had the right spirit and did the right thing. Radical Participation (not expression, though expression is part of participation) in BRC from every person is what is needed.

It is the Individual Participant that will save BRC (and the Individual Slacker that will doom it). We just need to educate more Individual Participants to carry the torch. Rally their inner Burningman Spirit.

How many Individual Participants did you help educate last year?

[Bob]

Larry's always funded art. First his own, then his own and others' out of the ticket money. It's included a variety of media and art forms. Next?

[natthebat]

I spelled disarm wrong. I don't know how anyone manages to take me seriously with my bad spelling. Thank you for taking me seriously.

Technopata, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Your words mattered a lot to me. I feel we've had a breakthrough in the communication. Not just here but everywhere. The e-playa and reality are swarming with constructive communication and participation. My mind feels the pieces falling into place.

My mind is a cluttered junk yard and it is my obsession to make meaning and build importance and beauty out of all the junk. I am inspired by all the pieces of meaningful, important, beauty you all have given me. See! I'm all warm and fuzzy. Feels much better than the vicious beeting I recieved yesterday. I like a good ass kicking every now and then but it never manages to keep me in line.

I will not lay down my torch or my wire or my paint brushes or my clay or my vibrator. Also, I will not write that thesis. It's not that I don't want to write a paper about a subject I have no experience in, it's just that I don't have the time. I have shit to make! It has come to my attention that a thousand thesises have been written and million decussions have taken place.

Fear is the product of potential reality. We fear bureaucracy because it is real to us. We have participated in bureaucracy too much for too long. Not just Burning Man and the current -vs- proposed systems, but society and humans as a whole. From this point on, and I am ONLY speaking for myself, I will personally participate in responsible anarchy. I know right from wrong, for the most part, and I will do as I please. I hope I don't get caught, but living my life as I please, is a cause to die for. Now I know how a revolution begins. Stagnation, must overcome the stagnation, the reruns of friends and the oderly living room. Well placed bombs, so feelings do get hurt. But no lives are lost. If we teach responsibility and contribution then there are no messes amongst a free people.

I know it's not too new, the Punks have been saying it for years. But if you have the time I'd love to hear what you think. Comon' tell me I'm full of shit! Anyone out there! (But if you'd like to agree, I do need help sometimes)

Anarchy: 3: an ideal society having no government and made up of individuals who enjoy complete freedom.

On a final note. Sam, you know I love you but you said, "a discussion over art not the fate of the world." On my scale of right and wrong, you're wrong. Much love dear.

And on a second final note. Rian Jackson said I have dinamism that will impact people. he he he, that felt good.

Love Natalie
I hope I don't get shot...the fear is taking over... must press Submit.....

[stemmy]

Hiya Nat!

Thanks for the chat last night. I was inspired to stay in touch better and here I am! I am going to try to have a richer more satisfying cyber-life.

Lovelove,
Christella

[Rian Jackson]

hey Nat. funny you should discuss anarchy with me and sam about - we talk about it every time we're face to face.

i'm a bit of an anarchist myself. but i have to say, the community needs to grow toward it; you can't institute it and expect success. when people learn to make decisions for the good of the community, when they learn to support each other and take their freedom and involve themselves and set their sights on those things which are important, then anarchy can work.

fast revolutions don't make peace or justice, IMHO.


*plink*

[samtzu]

And to what Rian said, let me add:

Anarchy, true anarchy (not what was popularized by the Punk Movement) is a very messy thing, but needed from time to time in human culture. Controlled anarchy is not anarchy, but revolution. I, personally prefer anarchy, because with a revolution you simply change masters, whereas with anarchy there are no masters, and nature tends to thin out the herd and leave the strong to rebuild. If anarchy is what you want, then the destruction of Burning Man is what is being contemplated. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it sure as hell will piss a few people (about 35,000) off. So... revolution (change in the power elite), or anarchy (no power, or power elite)?

I'll go with anarchy every time... but I understand the costs...

[Rian Jackson]

i'm no scholar on the topic, but you'd have a hard time convincing a lot of people that there's any one true anarchy.

that said, i generally qualify my vision as a modified anarchy.

complete anarchy often means that a lot of people aren't getting needs - actual needs - met, unless the the people of the society, if you will, are truly dedicated to helping each other.

wait a minute - i'm usually doing apologetics for anarchy and you're usually attacking it. what just happened?

[samtzu]

I haven't shared with you my "Total Destruction" scenario? Sorry... My basis is that there are too many people on the planet. Since humans are incapable of regulating their own populations (so far, and don't drag the Chinese into this, 'cause it isn't working for them, either) the only way to save the planet is to destroy the basis of social structure and support for the humans. I envision an asteroid or comet crashing into the earth at various locations (some on the land, some in the sea) and that the resulting destruction to infrastructure and commerce will cause a major die off of humanity. Cultures will be lost, disease will dominate, billions will die. Life, of course, goes on, and the earth will have a little chance to rest and grow while humanity struggles to figure out what the hell happened, and how the hell to get things moving again. It would be nice if the planet had, oh, say, a thousand years for this, but even two hundred would be nice. Humans, of course, will restructure and rebuild, but maybe, just maybe, they will take into account that they are not the only fucking inhabitants of this fucking rock!

And that is what I mean by 'total' anarchy... like it?

[Badger]

but you'd have a hard time convincing a lot of people that there's any one true anarchy.

ESPECIALLY the anarchists themselves. One of the more obscenly pathetic things I remember from a few years back was when a group of anarchists descended onto Berkeley for a gathering/conference. At the end of things was supposed to be a march through the ciity of Berkeley to 'show solidairty and blah, blah, blah...'

IT was a parade of cats with folks (i.e. the leaders) screaming at each other because folks couldn't decide on a march route.

[Rian Jackson]

speak to Nipper. he ordered up some asteroids, last i heard. i know one is slated for the middle east, so i intend to be there.

and no, you haven't filled me in on this plan. i'm miffed.

[samtzu]

You need to corner me on this one... there are more details I can get into... but I really like to keep this one to myself...

... I've ordered an asteroid, too!...

[Rian Jackson]

yeah, well Fuck Yer Day.

unfortunately, it goes beyond my minimal sense of propriety to say that i ordered a tidal wave...