What changes to Burning Man would you suggest to improve it?

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:38 pm

Make the people inside the burn ring watch the other 30,000 outside the ring perform their unrehearsed version of fire spinning/spitting/breathing/throwing.

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:28 am

1) Public flogging for anyone caught puting trash/grey water in the potties. Set up a big St Andrew's Cross at each pottie bank, and have a sentry stand by to do the honors. That'll disway the violators.
2) No RV's. None. Not even 1st camp. Domes , domes and more domes!
3) Approve large kitchens thru the Health Dept rather than a centralized commissary. Hey, Rainbow can do it, why can't we?
4) Reel back the gratuitous money spending at the Man Base. Stand him on his own feet on the ground, and make the whole "Burn Night" so anti-climactic that the yahoos get bored and not come back the next year.
5) More guns.

Lots more guns.

unjonharley · Post by **unjonharley** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:59 pm

Getting robbidobbs a new toilet brush for 05 would be a nice change

Iago · Post by **Iago** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:46 pm

diode wrote:Put the Man back on the hay bales

Mandatory naked fire dancers

Fire breathing dragon theme

Make the city one big circle with the Man in the middle.

I agree with Diode!

Get the Man back down to the ground where the us unwashed ones can fondled him again. I'm only speaking for the girls, of course??

Oh Fuck it, I don't give a shit what they do, I'm so fucking tired by the time I get all my shit together and get there I'm just glad it aint raining.
The Majic will happen whether I know it or not.. See ya next year...

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:07 am

Q_ wrote:Don't let anyone go to Burning Man more than three times, because then they transform into old cranky burners that think that everything sucks now and tell us how much the new folks are fucking it up...

Or, we could just go and have fun and see what happens and enjoy the random changing experiement

i was a cranky old burner way before my third burn... and there were late arrivals in '98, my first burn that "ruined" the scene...

as a friend Elise once said... "Let people find burning man on their own"

a smaller sign at the front gate... if they get lost, tough shit.

Dr. Pyro · Post by **Dr. Pyro** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:39 am

Bring back the notion of Black Rock City being a truly "Temporary Autonomous Zone" and let people blow off steam as they see fit. You people are delusionary if you think that getting rid of your "Frat Boyz" (I am one as are several of my campmates and noone ever suggested we get the hell out of BRC) or Ravers (now you're talking) will make the experience better. Increasing the dichotomy and genepool of Burning Man makes it special. More people are fine, fewer rules are better. Damn it, no one should be arrested for smoking a joint out on the playa.

Burp! · Post by **Burp!** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 5:56 pm

2005 Theme "Games"

nuff said.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:02 pm

OK!

So there seems to an agreement on Trailers and RV's.

Tents, dome and love shacks etc. are good!

Raves are out because they don't add to the art which is what BM is partly about. But many of us like dance and strutt our turkey legs abit. So maybe raves should intergrated into the art scene which is why I like the neon wind socks back in 2000 or was that 1999? It wasn't a rave but it's great sound system which was no where at the volume level of average rave, was better and spontanious rave like happening occured! More Club scenes like the smut shack should be encouraged!

Some like a more family atmoshere, but that's takes child guardians, child safe sections and then need for more policing underage drinkers! I could do without both!

Any one says that it should be in Montana will be shot entering Montana with their own guns! Montana really sucks and we will want to keep it that way! today it was 35o below! Moving the event to other locations is good, but that means a return to a smaller infrastructure that could be moved as well year after year or a return to the Black Rock every so many years.

Yahoos, frats and tourists- How about Burn the big show Man on Tuesday so the tourist crown could leave and we burn a six footer on a pile of hay bales on saturday- no one will come or stay just to see the little man burn on the weekend. That along with the playa foot will reduce that crown during the end of the week! No one thought of no ICE sales, but that will only result in very sick people drink warm beer.

Center Camp- some like the stage and the chilling out scene, but the coffee sales are out! I haven't seen anything there that couldn't be done on the many performance stages in the camps. I love going into camps that have the stage, some instruments and jamming with who ever shows up!

Mandatory naked fire dancers- maybe mandatory nakeness like Naked Hour- all people at 2:00pm must be totally undressed. That could turn away a few intimidated folks!

Make the people inside the burn ring watch the other 30,000 outside the ring perform their unrehearsed version of fire spinning/spitting/breathing/throwing- good thought, but I see an increase at the Med tent and heli-vacs, but that along with the Big Man Burn on tuesday can help reduce the population on wenesday!

Public flogging for anyone caught puting trash/grey water in the potties- that might actually encourage abberant sexual/violence behavoir and not a thing to prevent trashing the PPs. The problem with policing the PPs is who will stand there to do that. But, making everyone summit to a search
before and after might make a difference. Why after? Cavity searches are more fun then.

Good suggestions everyone!

Now is there anyone with authority listening that impliment these changes?

A II Z

diode · Post by **diode** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:12 pm

You forgot the newbie gauntlet.

How's this....all the newbies will have to be body painted in a special shade of food coloring/body paint that will be easily idenfiable. Then the veterans can love bomb every newbie in sight until they give up their food/beer/drugs/girl or boyfriends and are reduced to playa penury.

At that point, all their stuff can be 'gifted' back to them, thereby neatly demonstrating the no commerce BM communal ethos.

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:06 pm

Eliminate all people who complain, or wish to decide what can or cannot be done, what should or should not be allowed.

kind of caught myself in a paradox. Ah fuck it, I'll never go again anyway.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:31 pm

It's not about complaining, but helping to improve or maintain something that is deffinately changing for the worst!

I don't think that newbies are the problems because they only learn from those that have been there before.

There was something about having to live in an extreme desert environment, but pulling up in a RV does have an effect on your mindset as compared to living in a tent.

But hey I only pay the man to experience something that i can experience in any RV campgound (that's a joke- Hey look at me camping in my RV in a campground!) see people dressed in Holloween costumes anywhere in America. But is a different feeling when walking up and greeting tent people compared to knocking on a door and being given a treat. But hey here's a trick to play on someone arrogant trailer head that runs their RV generator all night or pours their unfiltered grey water- dump a couple of gallons of water outside their doorsteps and have them sink to their knees in mud! Just leave a message so they know what why you did what you did!

We can regain what BM has lossed over the past several years, but someone above has to make the rules or the event is just another excuse for yahoos to attend.

While i'm bitching anyway.

I overheard one new person complain about everyone that had a playa name instead of their real name! This person showed up without a tent and spend all her time in center camp because it made her feel like she was at the ultimate starbucks!

Wow!

I hope the RV and trailer home exclusion is not decided because the people that own this event might piss off some wealthy friends!

Perhaps lets change the survival guide to "Hey dumbass bring a nice air-conditioned RV because you can die or choke to death on the fucking dust and the fucking heat!"

I'm done and pissed right now so I'm leave!

Later!

A II Z

jbelson · Post by **jbelson** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:16 pm

I say we get rid of the e-playa.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:20 pm

Listen!

I have never heard more people upset at the changes that have occured! Diehards don't like the event anymore and all it takes is a little input granted some of them are absurd, but many are just little changes that can increase the enjoyment of the event. Eplaya is just an outlet for voicing those changes. Sure, I've only been going to BM for 5 years since 1999 and I seens major changes that have affected the art to the people that now are just looking for a KOA with clowns to entertain them and these aren't not newbies.

So rag if you or I may but eventually the BLM will place restrictions on the number of people attending and it shouldn't just be the rich that can afford it.

A II Z

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:38 pm

OK here's another that I posted in another thread.

Manditory Naked Hour or Hours!

9:00am - 10:00

4:00pm - 5:00

and 12:00 - 1:00

The time period from 11-4:00 is forbotten only to protect the white folks!

No exceptions- you are what you are and we aren't all fashion models, but we love our bodies don't we!

A II Z

jbelson · Post by **jbelson** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:04 pm

Zues,
Aren't many of the things you are proposing rules and restrictions? I know of other people that are doing that "to enrich our lives" and it's called the Bush administration.

DON"T BUSH ME. Please!

If you dont like something, then bring something to improve it.
Don't impose rules to make the cranky happy. Then we'll become what we hate.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:48 pm

jbelson wrote:Zues,
Aren't many of the things you are proposing rules and restrictions?

So how big is your RV?

A II Z

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:49 pm

hey punk, my RV is 34 fucking feet long and it carries a big piece of art and a medium sized P.A. so that we may 'rave' in camp. That single large vehicle packs a serious participatory wallop. So, take your stereotype and pack it out please.

jbelson · Post by **jbelson** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:37 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:
jbelson wrote:Zues,
Aren't many of the things you are proposing rules and restrictions?
So how big is your RV?

A II Z

I dont have an RV, a small tent trailer, yes. But does that matter? Whats worse, someone going to the event in a motorhome and being able to enjoy themselves because they were able to have a comfortable night sleep thru 40 mph winds, or forcing someone to take their clothes off against their will (and who might have very legitimate personal or physical reasons that matter) because YOU have imposed a mandatory naked hour?
Why is YOUR way the right way? Dont we go to the event to have certain freedoms to do what we want?
A lot of what you suggest is completely against what the whole thing is about. You want people to experience the event your way, because for some reason you think YOUR way is the right way. And others are wrong.
That makes you a PLAYA NAZI. You have become what you hate.
In life, those that complain are those that dont contribute. Those that do contribute are too busy to waste time on complaints.
Maybe this fits you, maybe it doesn't.
But I think the Playa is like smoking crack. The first time is really great, and every time after that, your trying desperately to recapture that high, but it's never quite the same.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:18 pm

But I think the Playa is like smoking crack. The first time is really great, and every time after that, your trying desperately to recapture that high, but it's never quite the same

Damn that's good.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:20 pm

Jbelson you haven't contributed on suggestion to improve BM but rather hide your head in the sand and say its all right, there has never been this many disatisfied customers at BM before. People that have always enjoyed going to BM for years. If that's not a sounding board of doom then I don't know what that is. Maybe BM is just becoming the tinsle town of Nevada.

Contrubute something other then your ranting about getting rid of eplaya- that sounds like a rule as well! There are rules at BM so get over it.

And Stuart, you say you carry your art and sound equipment and yeah that's good, but is the problem of RV's is more then that and 99% of them don't carry anything other then one or two people and take up enough space on the playa to house 30 people.

I'll be a Nazi if it means a better experience by selectively turning away people that don't mind experiencing the desert outdoors. But perhaps that the problem with the whole damn west. You all feel that you are not in one!

Here's an old suggestion: lets move to private lands. BM has the cash roll to buy land now!

A II Z

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:24 pm

PS- I have no more references to BM any more on my web site. The images are still there but no word other then the pictures. So there is one less advertisement.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:57 pm

And Stuart, you say you carry your art and sound equipment and yeah that's good, but is the problem of RV's is more then that and 99% of them don't carry anything other then one or two people and take up enough space on the playa to house 30 people.

Cites?

I'll be a Nazi if it means a better experience by selectively turning away people that don't mind experiencing the desert outdoors. But perhaps that the problem with the whole damn west. You all feel that you are not in one!

Here's an old suggestion: lets move to private lands. BM has the cash roll to buy land now!

Just when I thought you'd stopped talking out of your ass....

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:11 pm

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:56 am

And Stuart, you say you carry your art and sound equipment and yeah that's good, but is the problem of RV's is more then that and 99% of them don't carry anything other then one or two people and take up enough space on the playa to house 30 people.

Imagonna try real hard to respond to this

And Stuart, you say you carry your art and sound equipment and yeah that's good

yeah, it is good, so quit being a bigot. Address your concerns more specifically if you want to make progress.

but is the problem of RV's is more then that

uh, the problem is what? what is the problem in my example? Did you want me to bring less stuff?

99% of them don't carry anything other then one or two people

see badger on this one

take up enough space on the playa to house 30 people.

that's one big ass RV, or are you comparing it to the new coleman easy up 5 story tents I keep hearing about

look man, I am happy to have the RV debate, again, but it would help if you could articulate what you believe is evil about them without all the wild hyperbole.

i miss chai guy

jbelson · Post by **jbelson** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:52 pm

Okay, 2 suggestions:

1) Keep publicity of the event to a minimum. No news crews with their betacam's and host's doing standup. Only print media allowed.
News crews inevitably give the wrong impression of the event, making it out to be a rave or just a hedonistic party. They have 2 minutes, if that, to present their story. It's a visual medium, so they have to do this by showing the naked, the painted, and the rave. Your average person sitting on his couch see's this and thinks it's a party that they should check out along with mardi gras. They are force fed an idea of the event as opposed to doing any fact finding for themselves.
Print media allows for a deeper interpretation of the event (hopefully), and will also be found by a different class of people. A future participant that has searched out the event, who is more intelectual (hopefully), and yearns for more than what is just presented to them (hopefully).

B.-Create an infastructure for artists to promote the building of new and large projects. It's obvious that there is not much of a support structure for a lot of individuals who contribute their time and money to bring something to the playa. Burningman, as much as we dont want to admit, is a brand. But it doesn't have to be a brand in the "Trump" way. It has established itself as an artistic outlet, an alternative economy, and has taught many TO contribute.
It is now time to teach people HOW to contribute. Help people to gain the skill sets they need to create what they dream. To help the creators dreams become reality. To foster a network that would facilitate colaboration, instruction, inspiration, and ultimately completion.
It doesn't necissarily have to become a school with a school house, but something to help every day people like us who sit in front of computers all day do something that we dont know how to.
There are many regional networks now that support the BM ideal. Now it needs to be taken to the next step to help foster the creation of participants that will make the community thrive.
Theres a lot that I want to learn how to do artistically, but there isn't a lot of cetralization to help me get there.

There AIIZ, those are suggestions that do a lot more than force one mans ideas on another.
We go to the event not just to see art, walk around naked, or dance. We go there because it allows us to be individuals, to be people that we wish we could be year round, to build a city, to destroy it. We go there for a freedom that we are not given. The problem you complain about cannot be fixed by a few rules that force people to participate a certain way.
I wouldn't force you to come in an RV, I'd much prefer to give you the choice to enjoy the event how you like.
The word MANDATORY is a very dirty word.

safetythird · Post by **safetythird** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:10 pm

AZ: Being the owner of 27 feet of Shaggin Wagon I feel a need to respectfully request that you piss off.

My RV was very welcome in our camp. It blocked the view of Johnny Law, provided shade for those waiting to use the community showers, kept otter pops frozen all week and I won't even get started on the mostly playa free meals or the level of physical security it afforded many campmates. I didn't drain any fluids on the playa like every other good BRC citizen and the restful sleep (is that even possible?) I got only added to the energy I was able to share with BRC. I'm going to bring it next year too.

I wouldn't even entertain the idea of banning tents or cargo trucks. People bring to the playa whatever they can to make themselves comfortable. Who said it had to be some kind of torture-fest? Who the hell are you to dictate what level of comfort people are allowed to have at BM?

S3

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:33 pm

Here's an old suggestion: lets move to private lands.

Assuming you mean the Reservation, I am not sure this would be an improvement. I have had the opportunity over the last few months to have this discussion with an Indian from the reservation. He says the Tribe is drooling over the prospect of making money off of every truck and commercial service that enters the Reservation to get to BRC.

According to him, the JOTS / ICE service / Golf carts / water trucks / Heavy Equipment / etc, etc would all have to contract through the Tribe to be able to be "commercial" on the Reservation. I'll bet this wouldn't be cheaper than it is today. And I don't think the Indians would be as forgiving of our "community" as the current powers are.

And if you are talking about non-Indian private land, there is the Rave act to consider. Even worse if you think the BMorg could buy private land and do this themselves.

Private land is a pipe dream in my opinion. Maybe a GOOD pipe dream, but a dream none-the-less.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:40 am

Thanks for the input people!

Harriet's was the best of what many haven't placed on this tread.

Maybe there's a solution to the RV state like a increasement of the walk-in tenting area. Maybe a section somewhere the center camp area and a unit on the north side.

A II Z

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:11 pm

Jbelison- So if you believe that BM is about the art (and I agree to that point) could there then be a way to encourage more people to incorporate an artistic concept into their abodes including RV’s. The Spaghetti Western Mutant Vehicle would be extreme example RV’s made into art, but a simple improvement in the color scheme would be visually effective for our community. It doesn’t take a Daily’s “Art Critic” reviewer to know that RVs are unsightly examples of “function over form” with little or no artistic design incorporated- Ferrari’s they are not. If someone would try turning an RV into an art form then maybe they would comprehend the enormous size of these very imposing beasts.

As far as the amount of space that RV’s as compared to a row of tent and the number of people that can camp in the same place, and is not anything that I would call camping, but many tents on the web can sleep 10 comfortably and in the space of 45-60ft” that’s a large trailer and truck or other large rig that same space could sleep 30 people. Maybe some of you RVer’s know what is the average number of people per RV unit- TWO. That’s a lot of potential space to house a lot of people.

I would hope that many of you RV types would at least find ways of encouraging more non-RVs camping like these:

Designate some camping areas as RV Areas- not mandatory, but encouraged!.
More Walk-In camping areas in up wind areas, this would reduce the dust flowing into the center of BM and reduce soil surface disturbance.
Let the camps be allowed to moderate the number of RV’s to accommodate for more higher density camping based on their allotted space and camp attendance.
Allow those camps that have higher participants to be placed closer to the center of BM.
Encourage those that drive vehicles to park them closer to the perimeter after unloading gear to accommodate more campers- someday areas could be designated as such.

As far as the proposals put forth in this discussion thread, they are not of mine alone, but a consensus of the people that has been contributing to this dialog. Whether of not, nudity or excluding RV’s is made into law that everyone agrees too is not of consequence as much as those that feel they have a voice to express and make a difference. If people wish to avoid a dialog on this or any other matter simply because they take offense that it might effect them, irregardless of the consequence of their actions upon others, then this community is not a community at all let alone an “Art Community”! Without a community or a community of artists, BM that you and have known will cease to exist! Though, I am not a psychologist, I’m sure that there are studies about the isolation of living in cubicles and the associated effect upon communal social behavior somewhere on the web on in a library. So if your input is to defend the use of RV’s and I’m all for you voicing your rational to do so (though I wouldn’t include a Canvas Pop-Up trailer or even a truck camper in the category of RV’s, converted transcontinental buses or other large mobile homes with expandable modular rooms) then what other changes would you suggest that would still allow RV usage and address the concerns of those voiced in this thread?

Obviously, we can’t continue the exponential growth in the number of people and RV’s and provide enough land space to accommodate them both because I don’t ever see reservation camping being available with the purchase of a ticket as long as the BMorg will want to continue sell more and more tickets they will find a way to pack in campers like sardines or/until the BLM says they hit the saturation point.

As a wise Black Rock City Resident once said, “change is inevitable, accept change!”

AIIZ

Mister Jellyfish Mister · Post by **Mister Jellyfish Mister** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:01 am

Damn. Just when I was ready to jump all over AZ, some pearls of wisdom start dropping from his mouth.

I take delivery this week of my dream crib... a 2001 22 foot travel trailer. Super clean so I just might convince my wife to join me for the last two days at the burn. That means I'll get laid on the playa... ain't nobody gonna tell me that their art is better than that! I can also now invite my friend from Europe to join me in a shelter that will leave him less weary than last year.

Last year I had a 1962 10-footer that my daughter and I painted art on including the "Large Marge" sign. I sold it in a bar on the way back from the playa to a guy who was going to make it a humble home to his friend who was coming out of hospital.

So, lets look at this a minute. What we've got are not a bunch of big white bricks on the playa... they are canvases! So I'm going to start a new thread here on E-playa called "Pimp Somebody's Ride" to suggest an artisitic solution.

What changes to Burning Man would you suggest to improve it?

Pimp somebody's ride