Conservative or Progressive, what's our future?

[andi]

Jim and Chicken sure did let a large genie out of the bottle with their single-minded attack on the Art granting and curating process. The Participation problem they complain about is true to most and the root causes and solutions have been debated up and down on this the eplaya, Tribe, and many other forums.

There are many fault lines in our community (conservative vs progressive, partier vs connecter, taker vs giver) and I believe one struggle in particular is most at work in our current "manifesting genie".

There are some I call Burning Man Conservatives, they romanticize the early days, get the most bent out of shape with the growing population, think John Law leaving the event was the worst thing that ever happened, they hate the law and want their freedom above all else, and they get the most upset when there are new rules established. Conservatives reminisce on the days of old with all of the great stuff that happened, compared to the shit you see today. They like it the way it was way back on the first day on the playa, and think of Burning Man as more of a friendly egalitarian society, where consensus rules, each Participant gets a vote, and there is no hierarchy. And they want you to "respect your elders" (according to Jim).

Burning Man Progressives look at the event as: an ongoing experiment and evolution, each year brings new opportunities to do something new, we have grown so large that we have to start thinking outside of the event (like the Regional Network), we can overcome problems of the past by setting up structures, organization, and rules to remedy them. Progressives relate our communal "trip" as being more like surfing, than a totally planned out thing, the event can be managed but it could never possibly be controlled. You set you sights on a goal, make a theme, invite others to contribute, who knows what the end result will look like, but it will start looking a lot more like what you want the more you are organized and the more planning you do. Progressives look at us as all working together with burners each filling a role doing what they do best and generally call this a do-ocracy (those who step up to the plate and do things will get to make the decisions).

After many hours of reading various forums this fault line seems to me to be emerging as the strongest. There seem to be a good number of burners who back Jim and Chicken's petition who are also looking for some form of egalitarian input, like a vote. Yet they don't understand the inner workings of the machine that has brought about BRC year after year, and that tinkering with it now in the manner they describe has more probability of failure than success. Perhaps if we move to a membership model, those who step up to the plate and invest in the community will get a vote (like at an annual shareholder's meeting or something).

So where do we go from here? Clearly everyone is eager to leave the present, but do we go backwards, more to the roots of Burning Man? Or do we plow into an unknown future together rich with large rewards and dangers? Do we lose the organization and pare down the size of the event by making it invitation-only with rotating committee leadership? Do we vastly increase our reach and visibility, meaning we will have to find new revenue sources that look, smell, feel, and taste just like commerce?

Let's ditch the art thread, it's pretty much spent. Conservative vs. Progressive now that's a much juicier fruit to bite. Where do we go from here?

[theCryptofishist]

Interesting observation.
I dislike the conservatives, because there existence implies a golden age to which we cannot return. Sure we can have BM as it was, but first I have to be a beat poet and re-live the mauve decade and you know I never had my crack at the decembrist revolution.j

Does that make me a progressive? Or just a disgruntled fishy that feels her reality is being dissed because her experience doesn't count because it's too fresh? Do the "conservatives" realize that there is an implicit ranking here? Because that's why I want to bite them.


*swims off humming Makie Messer*

[andi]

Oddly enough I have encountered conservative newbies, and I know a lot of old-timers who are progressive. I don't think years on the playa necessarily make you one way or the other. In a wierd way it has more to do with your opinion on where do we go from here. That "respect your elders" remark stained a lot of old-timers of every persuasion, yet another ranting to be ashamed about. Participation (even if you haven't been to the playa) is what counts in my book, not years on the playa.

[Simply Joel]

Oddly enough I have encountered conservative newbies, and I know a lot of old-timers who are progressive. I don't think years on the playa necessarily make you one way or the other. In a wierd way it has more to do with your opinion on where do we go from here. That "respect your elders" remark stained a lot of old-timers of every persuasion, yet another ranting to be ashamed about. Participation (even if you haven't been to the playa) is what counts in my book, not years on the playa.

although it isn't discussed yet, and i don't feel like expouding.. count me in as a burning man "realist," somewhere between conservative and progressive.

what is "our" future?

only time will tell.

[Dork]

Please don't apply an either-or label to me. I might agree with one side or the other (as you have divided them) on certain issues but that doesn't mean I think that way on all issues.

For you to insist that because someone thinks one thing about the art debate means they think they same way about all things Burning Man is silly. Funny how your "progressive" camp seems to follow what BMORG is already doing, and "conservatives" are irrational anarchists.

The art debate is moving along as well as its able to. Attempting to discredit the other side in this matter isn't helping anything IMHO.

[Badger]

Attempting to discredit the other side in this matter isn't helping anything IMHO.

i don't think Andi is trying to discredit any more than he's actaully trying to pigeonhole. He might be guilty of oversimplifying things a bit but i think some of what he's said in his many contributions lately have some resonance. Seems like it comes down more to distilling what seems in his reading a pretty polarized discussion I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[andi]

what is "our" future?

That would be the future of the Burning man community, which me, you, and all these other people talking here are a part of. Burning Man is much more than just an event, and it is much more than just art alone.

And Dork, calm down, there are plenty of forums about the whole art thing. This thread is to talk about something related but different (and in my opinion, much more important) from the whole Chicken and Jim petition thing. Who cares what the labels are, there are clearly two camps of thought although the lines get very blurry at times. And there is no attempt to discredit the petition's authors with this thread, perhaps you see the need to censor this thread because it doesn't support your cause, by simply asking questions.

Where do you see Burning Man going? What would you think if the Project started "Burning Man Magazine" and started selling it? What would you think if BRC became invitation-only? We all see the present as "broken", what is your fix? And don't give me that crap about funding Participation. We are talking about the burner community as a whole, because the only good solutions will be ones that build and involve the whole community, not break it down and divide burners.

Conservative and Progressive are just ways to think about this split we have about how we proceed into the future. In the end we will all work together in unity (like we have done up to this point with plenty of dissension, BRC death pronouncements, and discussion over the years) , or BRC will die, spinning off the Regionals to live or die as they pleased.

[diane o'thirst]

We certainly don't have to "return to the old days" but we can take a lesson from it.

Frankly, I don't want to go back to the "real" old days where people could bring guns in and drive cars from camp to camp. Although I do see a return to that except that the cars are highly decorated and sport brutal sound systems.

At the same time, it bothers me that seemingly every other camp has or is a bar. They do a good job of decorating them up but I'd like to see more creative theme camps. I was seriously disappointed when I found the Emerald City a few years ago was...just another Rave. I thought someone had come up with a Wizard of Oz theme camp with costumed denizens, a flying skywriting witch and a Yellow (and Red) Brick Road. It was cool that Spike's at least attempted to get a World of Darkness game going but...not capping on you, Phoenix, but it was still...just a bar. A clever concept and some good music but that was it.

Let's just say that if I wanted to get plastered, I wouldn't spend a thousand bucks and bust my hump hauling all my shit 450 miles out to the desert to do it, however groovy the trappings are.

[Dork]

there are clearly two camps of thought

I disagree. In some cases there may only be two really loud voices and it might look like a clear division, but if you really looked into it you'd find most people are somewhere in the middle.

And there is no attempt to discredit the petition's authors with this thread, perhaps you see the need to censor this thread because it doesn't support your cause, by simply asking questions.

I'm not trying to censor, just trying to call a duck a duck. What cause do you think I'm trying to promote?

[andi]

Excuse me Dork but you are only attacking, you have not added anything constructive. I don't see how you can look at a discussion about the future direction of Burning Man and call it a discredit of Chicken and Jim's petition. We are talking about something much more in depth than just art here. And I am not sure what cause you are promoting, other than saying you are not anything.

And can we get over the label please. Who cares what you label yourself, what we are talking about here is which future direction do we pursue, democracy or do-ocracy?

If you have some other sort of way, some "third way" please let us all know about it. Let us all know what you stand for, or at least make some sort of positive contribution.

[samtzu]

Excuse me Dork but you are only attacking, you have not added anything constructive. I don't see how you can look at a discussion about the future direction of Burning Man and call it a discredit of Chicken and Jim's petition. We are talking about something much more in depth than just art here. And I am not sure what cause you are promoting, other than saying you are not anything.

And can we get over the label please. Who cares what you label yourself, what we are talking about here is which future direction do we pursue, democracy or do-ocracy?

If you have some other sort of way, some "third way" please let us all know about it. Let us all know what you stand for, or at least make some sort of positive contribution.

He has let us know about it. It is labeled under "Other" and it is a very valid position. Demanding that someone take one of two sides is simplistic and doesn't allow for complexity of thought. Isn't that what we just went through in the last national election (and every future election, until we do away with the electoral college)? Polarization only causes division (and blindness, usually) Dork's position is a 'positive' contribution. I may not agree with Dork, but I respect the position he has taken. Thanks, Dork.

[andi]

I don't think any of you are getting it. Let me restate the question without all the personalization. (Sorry, I screwed up, the initial post should not have been so personal and should have gone more like this:

NO ONE seems to like Burning Man as it is now, what direction do you favor the event and organization going, forwards, or backwards? More organization, or less? Do-ocracy or Democracy?

Don't like all these new rules? Wish we could go back to a happier more innocent time?

Are you happy enough the way things are running now? Do you want a stronger, more efficient organization, perhaps one that is about more than just the playa? Are you willing to pay for it?

I realize this is a LOT to mull over, and many of you may not have seen all the relevant information. It is not really so black and white as many of you are making it out to be. I don't think there is really anyone who is purely one or the other.[/b]

[swampdog]

NO ONE seems to like Burning Man as it is now,

Umm, speak for yourself. I'm a new burner (2004 was my virgin year) and I am excited to be a latecomer to this great experiment. This is a particularly volatile time, perhaps analogous to adolescence. Five years from now I hope we will be bragging that we were there and contributed to BM growing into the event where all of our dreams are expressed. But for now it's still the best damned thing going.

[sparkletarte]

Okay.

NO ONE seems to like Burning Man as it is now

I do.

what direction do you favor the event and organization going, forwards, or backwards?

Forward. You can't really ever go backward, however you can take from and learn from the past.

More organization, or less?

Depends on what the organization is in regards to. It seems very well organized right now to me.

Do-ocracy or Democracy?

I never thought it was a democracy. It's a project/business/non-profit/event/whatever. However I think I know what you are getting at, and a combination of both is what makes sense to me.

Don't like all these new rules? Wish we could go back to a happier more innocent time?

This having been my first year, I have no comment on the new rules. The past can often seem happier and more innocent but at the time it probably wasn't. I'd prefer not to go backward.

Are you happy enough the way things are running now?

Yes.

Do you want a stronger, more efficient organization, perhaps one that is about more than just the playa?

More efficiency is usually a good option to work towards. It doesn't really matter to me if it's about more than just the playa, however if others want that, I'm okay with it.

Are you willing to pay for it?

Sure, depending on what 'it' is exactly and how much.

Really, that wasn't a lot to mull over. From what I've read on this thread, it seems like you are making it out to be black and white, not the other way around, with the c vs p statement and 'no one'. However you are right, I'm sure no one is one way or the other.

I really don't understand why people are so up in arms about things. Inflammatory statements are not very effective in trying to help other people understand your point of view (just a general comment). Most of the threads about this sort of 'ack, my precious burning man!' seem to be really devisive, which isn't really very beneficial in the long run, unless you want to create a splinter group that forms it's own project. And even if that happened, what is wrong with that?

[andi]

You know buners form splinter groups all the time? But they are still related and come out to play.

[andi]

In learning how to do anything you either stumble around until you find the right way or you research how to do it then learn and eventually master. There is a standard way to do everything, meaning the most efficient plan to get you what you want, call it a standard of practice.

In the early days of Burning Man organization was casual and more free-form. Over time they were forced to get more organized and pursue standards of practice. They have done a great job by any measure, current displeasure included. They work really hard on low salaries and they can not do more than manage the event, there is much out of their control. Participants make up the rest.

If anything their pursuit of standards of practice and their efforts at organization have been critical to BRC still existing. So many people want to meddle with this structure without even looking at or factoring in the info from the Afterburn reports.

So we need to ask ourselves going forward, should the Project introduce new and untested elements (like democracy in a corporate structure) or should they continue refining their organization and pursuing standards of practice?

In my opinion we should be talking about how we can help them further refine and define their organization to bring the burner community closer together. Wouldn't that get the best result for all of us?