Burners who don't go to Burning Man?

[sparr]

As I travel more on the west coast, I encounter more and more people who don't consider regional attendees to be burners, or Burning Man Regional Network events to be burns. At BM this year I got to watch about a dozen people ask my girlfriend how many burns she'd been to, and the look on their faces when she said "this is my second burn, first burning man" was priceless. Having spent the first ~7 years of my burn culture experience on the east coast, the majority of the burners that I know have never attended BM, and probably never will, due to prohibitive travel costs. I can only imagine the ratio is even lower in Israel or South Africa, both of which seem to have thriving local events. What do you folks on eplaya think of this distinction and divide in burner culture?

[BBadger]

I use "burner" to mean, by definition, someone who has attended Burning Man itself at least once -- and is intending on going again. Otherwise it'd be "have not gone to Burning Man" or "went to Burning Man". The term, for me, also does not connote good or bad things, only the above. Attending the event doesn't mean you're a good or bad person; it's what you do in life.

I wouldn't use "burner" to refer to attending regional burns any more than using "the burn" to refer to regional burns. Yes, regional are "burns" but the distinction is made to not dilute the term that usually refers to Burning Man itself. You could even say "I'm a regional burner," which would work.

Note that this is not to make less of regional burns because they're great in their own way.

[gaminwench]

I agree with Bbadger.

[maladroit]

So say we all?

[Token]

Ya ain't a burner until you can tell me what it smells like at BM.

Regionals are a far cry from the real thing.

Like looking at the picture below compared to standing in the Sistine Chappel in awe of its magnificence.

[Captain Goddammit]

Is calling yourself a New Yorker if you've never even been to New York ridiculous?
I'm saying yes.

[maladroit]

You're still a virgin even if you've watched a LOT of porn.

[Jackass]

You're still a virgin even if you've watched a LOT of porn.

Really?? Damn it!... You mean to tell me that the slow, but persistent onslaught of blindness is all in vain?

[maladroit]

You're still a virgin even if you've watched a LOT of porn.

Really?? Damn it!... You mean to tell me that the slow, but persistent onslaught of blindness is all in vain?

Your body adapts. Know how a cat's whiskers act as extra sensors for getting around with low visibility? That extra hair on your palms will come in handy! You can beat this.

[Jackass]

(( ...should have worn boxing gloves more frequently... ))

[graidawg]

Yup got to agree with the crowd on this one, burner is for burning man, why don't you try and start a phrase for regional burners?

[sparr]

why don't you try and start a phrase for regional burners?

It's far too late for that (even if I had that sort of pull, which I obviously don't). The phrase for that has been "burner" to too many thousands of people for way too many years for me to make a dent in the vernacular.

[maladroit]

The phrase for that has been "burner" to too many thousands of people for way too many years for me to make a dent in the vernacular.

Not sure about this, where's the data?

[sparr]

The phrase for that has been "burner" to too many thousands of people for way too many years for me to make a dent in the vernacular.

Not sure about this, where's the data?

The quickest place I can think of to find it would be the various "burner" forums, subreddits, facebook groups, meetups, etc, particularly on the east coast. There may be other better sources.

[gaminwench]

One can call oneself anything one likes, doing so doesn't alter reality.

[GreyCoyote]

How do you dent a vernacular? And why would you wish to do so? Is this a lashing-out due to repressed aggression or "mommy issues"? Can a dented vernacular be repaired? If so, how? And if not, do you just discard it? Are there recycling programs? In which states? Can you use it for a core charge for a new lexical or iconographic paradigm?

This is important stuff. We need to reach a concensus on this.

Tell me about your father. Was he a batchelor?

[maladroit]

The phrase for that has been "burner" to too many thousands of people for way too many years for me to make a dent in the vernacular.

Not sure about this, where's the data?

The quickest place I can think of to find it would be the various "burner" forums, subreddits, facebook groups, meetups, etc, particularly on the east coast. There may be other better sources.

OK why do I have to do your homework for you? Your history on this forum means that you no longer have the luxury of making unsupported statements.

[sparr]

where's the data?

The quickest place I can think of to find it would be the various "burner" forums, subreddits, facebook groups, meetups, etc, particularly on the east coast. There may be other better sources.

OK why do I have to do your homework for you? Your history on this forum means that you no longer have the luxury of making unsupported statements.

What homework? You asked where, I answered your question. I haven't asked you to do any homework.

[maladroit]

where's the data?

The quickest place I can think of to find it would be the various "burner" forums, subreddits, facebook groups, meetups, etc, particularly on the east coast. There may be other better sources.

OK why do I have to do your homework for you? Your history on this forum means that you no longer have the luxury of making unsupported statements.

What homework? You asked where, I answered your question. I haven't asked you to do any homework.

When I asked "where's the data" I wasn't asking for the places that the data exists and could be gathered from. I was asking why you haven't provided any data to support your claim that thousands of people already use "burner" to refer to someone who hasn't been to Burning Man.

It would be like you promising to bring a pizza to a party. You show up empty-handed. I ask you "Where's the pizza?" You answer with "Pizza ingredients can be purchased from local grocery stores and combined to make the aforementioned food." That is when you have to leave the party.

[sparr]

I wasn't asking for the places that the data exists and could be gathered from. I was asking why you haven't provided any data to support your claim that thousands of people already use "burner" to refer to someone who hasn't been to Burning Man.

Well, one answer to your "why"... Most burner mailing lists (for example, every official regional BM mailing list) have archives visible only to subscribers. I can't link you to the data you want, because it's behind a registration wall. The equivalent facebook groups don't provide post/comment searching capability. The closest you're going to find to aggregated data on the subject is searching the BM subreddits for the term "burner".

[maladroit]

The closest you're going to find

No, not me...you. You go find the data and then make your point.

I like to put some trust in people who have more experience than me. Their opinions may be based on limited anecdotes, but their information is probably close enough to accurate. If the information seems shaky then it might be worth digging deeper to verify it. But for the most part, experienced people have a fairly close approximation of reality. Close enough to use that information in my own decision processes. This network of trust saves vast amounts of time, because running every nuance into the dirt means spending too much time verifying information that was already accurate enough to use, rather than progressing forward.

There are many people here who could make a statement like your "thousands of people" one, and I would be inclined to accept it at that and move on. However, I don't trust your experience and I don't see you as a valid source of information. You run everyone else's opinions and shared experience into the ground, ignore what we say, ask questions and then reject all the answers in favor of the one you already had in mind. That means any opinion you have is highly likely to be tainted by your own biases.

So from now on, you don't get to make points without providing the supporting data. If you can't support your point, then perhaps you should wonder whether it's a valid point at all.

[sparr]

Why would I put effort into supporting a point that no one disagrees with? Not a single person here has so much as *suggested* that I'm wrong. If you want to say "You're wrong about the prevalence of that term being used the way you say", great. Say that. Then maybe some data will be required. Until then... why would either of us go looking for that data?

[gaminwench]

I went to Flipside last year, my first regional.

I met many wonderful people who were Flipside regulars.

I met very few who had been to Burning Man, many who hoped to someday.
Those folks didn't call themselves burners; their term of choice was Flipizens.

[maladroit]

Everyone else in this thread has stated that they consider the term "burner" not to apply to regional burners. You put forward some numbers claiming that thousands of people already do use it that way, forcing the weight of these "thousands" against our handful of opinions here. That is absolutely you calling us wrong (in response to us merely stating opinions), so the burden of proof is yours.

Completely aside from that, I now consider every statement you make to be wrong, unless you provide independently verified sources for your information. This is in response to your endless nitpicking.

[DrYes]

Call yourself what you want. Words have different meanings in different contexts. In the context of the Burning Man community, you're not a burner unless you've been to Burning Man. If people who spend their time in Newark want to consider themselves New Yorkers, that's their business, but people who live in New York are going to chuckle at that.

[graidawg]

Sparr once again I judge you and find you wanting.

Your data is entirely absent, youmstate something andnexpect us to accept it as fact. When we do the same you do not believe us, so provide some evidence or stfu.
Just as aren't an officer if you are in rotc, you aren't a burner if you go to regionals.

I would go as far as you aren't a burner if you've only been to burning man once. Just as someone who had a boxing match once can't call themself a boxer, or if you got the ferry to staten island wouldn't make you a sailor

So here's a suggestion try and join the community instead of critiquing it don't be adversarial and challenging, this isn't some bdsm dungeon

[BBadger]

The proof of the pizza is in the eating.

[tamarakay]

I am in the middle on this. To me the term burner is a way of thinking and interacting with the world. It is not limited to those who are fortunate enough to a have made the trek to Nevada. I have met and interacted with people here in Texas that have never been to black rock, but the burner spirit is in them and they burn hard. And I have met a few people who have been to black rock that are the worst of humanity. It would physically hurt me to call them burners.

This thread could be an interesting discussion if people don't react to the strong personalities. Just discuss.

[maladroit]

I don't think the term itself has any bearing on the behavior of people. Sometimes people are awesome, caring, and creative...sometimes they're not.

Even a shitty person could be a burner, if they in fact go to Burning Man. Unless you want to start implementing "no true Burner" type judgements on people, and stripping this "title" from someone based on how they behave.

[Elderberry]

Can someone be a Muslim without doing the pilgrimage to Mecca?