Burners who don't go to Burning Man?

[The Rod]

Pretty sure a Muslim is a Muslim whether or not they've been to Mecca.


So... Technically I think we can accept that in order to be a burner you must burn. As in attend the Main Event. Opinions may vary on how many times it takes and if you do or intend to return.

But.. Philosophically speaking, I like what TK said a lot.

I do think that there is something about someone's character that either resonates with BM, or it doesn't.

I really don't want for anyone to have to go around around implementing "true burner" judgements on other people either, but we all know what makes a "good burner" on the playa even as subjective as that judgement is... When people embody bunery things like self expression, gifting, radical immediate engagement, and artsy-crafty shit- we all know people who never set foot on the playa who are like this.


I don't think this is a yes or no question..

[BBadger]

Can someone be a Muslim without doing the pilgrimage to Mecca?

Going on a Hajj is mandatory thing to do once in your lifetime if you're a Muslim, but doesn't make you a Muslim.

I really don't want for anyone to have to go around around implementing "true burner" judgements on other people either, but we all know what makes a "good burner" on the playa even as subjective as that judgement is... When people embody bunery things like self expression, gifting, radical immediate engagement, and artsy-crafty shit- we all know people who never set foot on the playa who are like this.

I guess the problem is that there isn't really a good replacement term to use. Maybe describing the person as burner-like/"burnery"/"burney" or something? The event doesn't have a monopoly on such people, but "burner" does generally have good connotations associated with it despite my original technical definition.

[Captain Goddammit]

I'll add that burners who no longer go can still be burners, or not. I think it depends on their own attitude about it.
I have a friend - the one who got me into BM in the late '90s - who used to me a 100% burner. He was all about it, fully immersed, everything he did was about it. He was as burner as it gets.
Well, he burned out. He hasn't gone in years and has no desire to go. He wants nothing to do with the main event.
Yet, he's still very much active with the regional. That's become his thing.
What the hell is he?

[JohnEBGud]

The proof of the pizza is in the eating.

Can you call it a deep dish pizza even if it is made in a cast iron skillet and not in a deep dish? Please consult FB, Reddit, and various sub forums and get back to me.

[sparr]

forcing the weight of these "thousands" against our handful of opinions here. That is absolutely you calling us wrong (in response to us merely stating opinions), so the burden of proof is yours.

I never said those people were wrong. I am not putting anything "against" anything. I'm pointing out that two different groups exist. I have made no statements about which group is right or wrong in their usage. Once again, you're trying to start a fight with me over something you want to pretend I said. This is a boring theme in our conversations.

[sparr]

Call yourself what you want. Words have different meanings in different contexts. In the context of the Burning Man community, you're not a burner unless you've been to Burning Man. If people who spend their time in Newark want to consider themselves New Yorkers, that's their business, but people who live in New York are going to chuckle at that.

If you want to see some truly vehement reactions, look into the equivalent conversation about the meaning of "The South" or "New England" or "Yankee".

PS: If you want to weigh in on my survey about "The South" and "New England", check out http://regionaldifferences.com

[kittyrodriguez]

I feel the same as TK. I consider the traits of the person when deciding if they are a burner. I know quite a few people that have never made it to BRC, but who embody the principles of Burning Man in their everyday life. They are burners to me. I also know people who have been to BRC who are not burners in my book.

Of course this is only my personal opinion.

I mean, is it soda, is it pop, or is it coke? I depends who you ask...

[Elorrum]

I have heard more than once, sorry, can't quantify it precisely, a friend or friends of mine who has/have been to burning man say, "I work with/live near/met recently someone who probably is a burner, but has never heard of burning man." I took it to mean it was somebody who lived the principles without having learned them there, or had a certain skew to their sense of humor, or art, or had a perceived sensitivity to the magic of the burn... someone who would probably really click with Burning Man, but had never heard of it. There is a quality that can be evaluated I think by other "burners" an estimation of who might really like it, or who is already living as if they had been. So, yeah, I can see there would be many regional attendees who can call themselves burners. I agree that are many BRC attendees who don't qualify in my estimation.

I guess I'm voting that it can be a subjective appellation, as well as a literal one.

[forty_eight]

naming shit is only ever an approximate measure of the reality of the thing

/philosophical moment

love burning man, plan to go again ... never really refer to myself as a 'burner'

it just seems cliquey and unnecessary

especially when people want to parse it out too much

that kinda kills me inside

[Major Krash]

one can be part of the "Burningman community" without having attended, and in this sense call yourself a "Burner"....but in reality if you have never been, you have no reference (and thus effectively no credibility). Anyone can call themselves a Burner (like Kennedy was a Berliner...) - not everyone can cope with a week in the dust.

No one I know calls a Regional or Decompression a "Burn", or that they are "going to the Burn".....they say "going to Element 11", or "going to Decomp"....etc.

btw - 2011 was the last year I went, so when people ask me if I am a Burner, I say "not anymore, but I am active Regionally"

[Ratty]

10 years ago I was volunteering as a thrift store manager. (For 3 or 4 years). I had SIX rooms upstairs full of weird stuff and costumes. It gave me an outlet for my restructured clothes, altered art and all the donations that don't quite fit on any shelf. People would occasionally ask me if I was a burner. When my burner co-worker finally came by the store she pronounced me a burner. I went to burning Man the next year.

[gaminwench]

Now this is interesting!

What I'm getting is ...

that someone who goes to BM can recognize the 'burner spirit' in one who has never been to/heard of BRC;
but that one self-identifying as a burner (based upon which criteria is unclear), without having any real experiential dusty reference point, is questionable.

[theCryptofishist]

Can someone be a Muslim without doing the pilgrimage to Mecca?

Going on a Hajj is mandatory thing to do once in your lifetime if you're a Muslim, but doesn't make you a Muslim.

Minor correction here. The it's-gotta-be-inaccurate-because-it's-crowdsourced encyclopedia is saying what I basically remember about the hajj--

The Hajj (/hædʒ/;[1] Arabic: حج‎ Ḥaǧǧ "pilgrimage") is an annual Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca, and a mandatory religious duty for Muslims that must be carried out at least once in their lifetime by all adult Muslims who are physically and financially capable of undertaking the journey, and can support their family during their absence.

(Or at least that's what they were saying when I did the cut and paste.)
Which is good, as far as I'm concerned, the idea of being trampled to death in a crowd is not attractive to me, desert trip or who concert.

If I convert.

And I'm a little leary of the "... but doesn't make you a Muslim." I don't know how good the id checks are, but the only non-Muslim I know of who went on the Hajj, when in the 1800s. I'm sure there have been more, just as I'm sure that there were women in the army during the Spanish American war. However, we are talking fractions of a percent in terms of attendance, so I think that if you meet someone who's been on the Hajj, you can pretty safely bet that they are, or at least were at the time of there journey, Muslim. Correlation, not causation, to be sure.

[BBadger]

I'll add that burners who no longer go can still be burners, or not. I think it depends on their own attitude about it.
I have a friend - the one who got me into BM in the late '90s - who used to me a 100% burner. He was all about it, fully immersed, everything he did was about it. He was as burner as it gets.
Well, he burned out. He hasn't gone in years and has no desire to go. He wants nothing to do with the main event.
Yet, he's still very much active with the regional. That's become his thing.
What the hell is he?

Hmm, that is a good point. I'll refine the definition to someone who has gone, but still participates in the "burner" culture. A bucket-lister wouldn't be a "burner" though, even if they had gone or maybe if they intended to go again as a 2x bucket-listing.

Which is good, as far as I'm concerned, the idea of being trampled to death in a crowd is not attractive to me, desert trip or who concert.

Yeah, it's pretty pragmatic. The multiple wives thing and even eating pork in desperation are pragmatic too, all things considered.

And I'm a little leary of the "... but doesn't make you a Muslim." I don't know how good the id checks are, but the only non-Muslim I know of who went on the Hajj, when in the 1800s.

I do wonder if there are many people who have sneaked into Mecca since then. There'd be a quite a few things to memorize to not look out of place, salah, etc. and you probably wouldn't want to advertise that you did it if you valued your life.

[kittyrodriguez]

No one I know calls a Regional or Decompression a "Burn", or that they are "going to the Burn".....they say "going to Element 11", or "going to Decomp"....etc.

btw - 2011 was the last year I went, so when people ask me if I am a Burner, I say "not anymore, but I am active Regionally"

See, where I am, it is common to call regionals burns. Texas has several. When discussing BRC, we call it "the big burn." Not that either way is right or wrong, just regional differences, I guess. We also say y'all and call people we don't like "honey."

[sparr]

See, where I am, it is common to call regionals burns. Texas has several. When discussing BRC, we call it "the big burn." Not that either way is right or wrong, just regional differences, I guess.

This is similar to the vernacular around Atlanta and DC as well. Boston also does something like this. Chicago less so; there, regional burns often get lumped in with other "festivals".

[EspressoDude]

A 'real' burner takes all the stuff that they have taken to the event the last 10 -15 years, pulls it out of wherever it got dumped, heaps it in a pile, and lights it

[Captain Goddammit]

A 'real' burner takes all the stuff that they have taken to the event the last 10 -15 years, pulls it out of wherever it got dumped, heaps it in a pile, and lights it

We have a winner!
Topic over.

[CyanEssence]

Now this is interesting!

What I'm getting is ...

that someone who goes to BM can recognize the 'burner spirit' in one who has never been to/heard of BRC;
but that one self-identifying as a burner (based upon which criteria is unclear), without having any real experiential dusty reference point, is questionable.

Exactly, when I joined they told me the title "burner," like "Sir" (as in knighthood) or a playa name, can only be bestowed, never assumed.

[Akela]

I've never really thought about the question before, because I've never encountered dissonance over the usage of the word. Upon analyzing it a bit, I discovered that I personally have two opposing opinions. Both seem reasonable to me, and I'm not sure which I prefer.

A. Going to TTITD at least once is a necessary and sufficient condition to be considered a burner. If you go to the burn, you're a burner. If no one "knights" you, that doesn't make you less of one. If you go as a bucket-lister or are just a shitty citizen (MOOPing, not participating, etc.) you are probably a bad burner, but you're still a burner once you've done it once. If you perfectly espouse generally accepted burner-y values and lifestyles but have never been, you could be described as a burner at heart, burner in spirit, future burner, pre-burner, burner-type-person, someone that really should be a burner, or maybe some other, very related term. But at the end of the day, you gotta get dusty to earn the title. The word predates regionals and isn't synonymous with "kooky free-love conscious artist type"--it has a specific meaning, relating to attendance of a specific event.

2. I think that it's generally accepted by most members of our community that people have a right to radical self-identification as they see best fit in other realms, so why not this one? For example: we're (generally) very accepting of those who with gender dysphoria, who may identify as a different gender than their assigned sex. If we are happy to consider a female-identifying person with a penis and a Y chromosome as a female, who are we then to tell a burner-identifying person who goes to regionals all the time and lives the 10 Principles every day that they're not a burner because they've never breathed playa? Aren't we supposed to be the tolerant, inclusive, open-minded ones?

[Simon of the Playa]

all burner lives matter.

[Bless]

BLACK rock city LIVES MATTER

[CyanEssence]

They gave me a merit badge to confirm I was a burner.

Once the title of Burner has been bestowed, pendants from camps and projects help to communicate rank in the hierarchy of Burnerdom, much like a military or aristocratic sash. Those with many pendants (from projects they actually worked on. Be careful, some are simply adorning themselves with pendants gifted to them - though these can in some cases indicate social standing by way of knowing how many social connections the person has) are viewed as Burnier. Legitimate plastic laminates show an advanced, more elevated and refined level of Burnerhood.

[maladroit]

What I'm getting from this is that if I self-identify as a Veteran on Wednesday, it's totally OK because sometimes I feel like I've been to war and served my country. Therefore I should be able to get some of the free coffee and stuff available this week.

[Bless]

What I'm getting from this is that if I self-identify as a Veteran on Wednesday, it's totally OK because sometimes I feel like I've been to war and served my country. Therefore I should be able to get some of the free coffee and stuff available this week.

I don't want to speak for others, but I don't think anyone is comparing serving your country in uniform with having attended that thing in the desert.

[maladroit]

I just did, but it was ridiculous enough that I doubted anyone would take it seriously.

[BBadger]

What I'm getting from this is that if I self-identify as a Veteran on Wednesday, it's totally OK because sometimes I feel like I've been to war and served my country. Therefore I should be able to get some of the free coffee and stuff available this week.

I think you're onto something. Maybe I can be a self-identifying military serviceman to board earlier on flights.

[Akela]

If little Billy believes that he's a girl despite his genitalia and genetics, a lot of people in our community would respect it and consider Billy to be a girl. I would. But how does society determine which things are acceptable to posit about oneself and construct a reality of, and which are just considered false or ridiculous? Identifying as a veteran even though you've never been in the military obviously sounds ridiculous, and I agree that it is, but how is it more ridiculous than identifying as a female even though you have a penis, Adam's apple, beard, y chromosome, and other male characteristics? How ridiculous did it once sound for Billies of the world to identify as girls and thusly become girls? What changed between then and now?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions. Someone smarter than me should weigh in.

[gaminwench]

Little Billy can identify as a girl, can live as a girl; however, without some hormonal and surgical intervention, he does not become a girl.

Then there was the woman in Spokane who identified as black, lived as black; that went over well.

[Akela]

Fair distinction. But even without the hormones and the knife, Billy gets to check the "female" box on a college application, use the girls' bathroom, and get ladies night prices at the bar. Where's the line between that and maladroit feeling like a veteran, and asking for free coffee? Back on the original topic, why can't someone who volunteers at a bunch of regionals call themselves a burner?

(for the record, I'm playing Devil's advocate here--the other half of me totally believes that you don't get to be a burner without ringing the bell and making some dust angels)