Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

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Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by cassiepea » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:08 am

Eplaya... Long time listener, first time caller.

Finally getting to the Playa this year after about 10 years of wistful thinking about it. "Excited" doesn't even begin to cover it. :D

Am camping with friends who are experienced burners but I am trying to be as independent as possible. I'll be in a box truck, and am building a variation of FIGJAM's box cooler here, besides that my power needs are fairly minimal for the week; I may run a string of lights inside the truck, and charge a few accessories as needed.

So I am trying to understand exactly how the battery -> cooler-component setup should look while being basically completely ignorant about electricity (though... I have switched out light fixtures and switches in my home many times) - I have read almost all of the cooler thread's 118 pages and many threads in the Power section as well.

So, this is what I am working with:
* Building a box cooler at home - I can purchase whatever type of fan and pump works best (was planning on the DC Endless Breeze & the HF pump everyone else uses, before I remembered I already own a AC inverter)
* I am planning on purchasing a deep cycle battery in Reno (have access to one here to use for testing) but not sure where to get or exactly which one to buy, yet.
* Once I buy the battery is there anything I need to do before being able to use it? Do they come charged? Need to be primed?
* I already own a Cobra 800w inverter that has two 120v outlets (and one USB port), if I can use it, great. If not, oh well.
* If I don't use the Cobra (is there a reason not to? a friend told me inverters are "inefficient") - I assume what I need is a clip/ring connect to battery with a 12v outlet on other side->12v 2 way splitter->power 12v fan & pump?

In general I am just a little confused, and would like to make sure I'm spending the least amount of money to build the most efficient system ;)

Thanks! :)

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by uncle sticky » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:32 pm

Do as much on 12 volt as possible. Inverters are inefficient. There's an old rule of thumb, which may or may not be accurate, but going from 12 to 120 through an inverter can cost you a factor of 10, meaning a 120 volt appliance that normally draws 1 amp/hour will draw 10. Now, I've been told this isn't true, but it's close enough to the truth. Costco near the airport has 100 amp hour deep cycle. Good choice. Otherwise, batteries plus on Kietzke is a good choice. Using your truck as a charger is very inefficient, burns a ton of fuel for very little electrical. Ask your camp if there's a generator and a charger in camp. Solar is nice, but inconvenient if you're flying.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:42 pm

That's nowhere even near the truth!!!
Power, measured in Watts, is calculated from Volts x Amps.
10 Amps at 12 Volts is 120 Watts of power.
1 Amp at 120 Volts is also 120 Watts of power.
There is some slight inefficiency through an inverter, but you're mistaking how electricity works completely.

Read this post, it will explain it so you can understand it:viewtopic.php?f=278&t=65368&start=30#p957556
Last edited by Captain Goddammit on Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by cassiepea » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:48 pm

Thanks!

Camp has a genny, not planning on using the truck battery unless there is some kind of snafu.

Am a little confused about the conflicting info. ;)

But it sounds like what I'm talking about boils down to the slight (?) inefficiency of using an inverter I already own and adding less expensive components (fan & pump) vs. more efficient converter from battery to 12v socket->12v splitter (both which I have to buy) and more expensive fan & pump.

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:50 pm

Read the post in the link I included below.
Do not listen to what Uncle Sticky just said.
He's been smoking a little too much sticky stuff. There's no "factor of ten" power loss when going from 12 volts to 120.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Popeye » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:08 pm

The huge inverter loss was true 20? or so years ago. Electronics have improved but you still have a loss when using an inverter. Plus it is something else to carry (and break).
The tried, true and best way is to use the DC components that Figjam suggests. I know it is tempting to experiment and "improve" but you would be waisting your time.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by mudpuppy000 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:09 pm

cassiepea wrote:Thanks!

Camp has a genny, not planning on using the truck battery unless there is some kind of snafu.

Am a little confused about the conflicting info. ;)

But it sounds like what I'm talking about boils down to the slight (?) inefficiency of using an inverter I already own and adding less expensive components (fan & pump) vs. more efficient converter from battery to 12v socket->12v splitter (both which I have to buy) and more expensive fan & pump.
Yes, the inverters are inefficient so you'll lose some power that way. If you get 12V fans and a pump you can just run wires straight off the battery terminal. (might want to add a fuse ;) )

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Skuzzy61 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:13 pm

cassiepea wrote:Thanks!
<snip>
Am a little confused about the conflicting info. ;)
<snip>
Captain is right. There is no conflict. The other comment is wrong. Don't make me get specific...I will,...and it will not be pretty!
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by LowePro » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:17 pm

The Endless Breeze is already a 12V device and there are lots of cheap 12V water pumps available online, that have been used successfully on the Playa. There's so cheap you can buy a backup. If you use 12V fan and pump, you can just connect directly to the battery. No need for a converter or even a splitter if you don't want to, just clip the wires to the battery terminals.

You can use your inverter if you want to charge your phone, camera, or other 120 A/C devices. But I'd recommend disconnecting the inverter from the battery when you're not using it. I've had inverters that got too hot and stopped working on playa, and they do kill some of your efficiency when they are running.

KISS is relevant here: Keep it Simple, Stupid. The less converting you do, the simpler and less room for error and waste.

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by cassiepea » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:49 pm

Thanks everyone. "Clip the wires to the battery"? - you mean cut off the plugs and strip the wires enough to connect them to the terminals, separately, with ... ? That sounds kind of daunting, and I have no idea how to install a fuse.

Otherwise, if I am understanding correctly, I need to connect to my battery:
Image
Connected to
Image
And to plug the 12v fan and 12v pump into that.

Related: if I have those eyelets connected to my battery, can I clip the inverter to the terminals on top of them as well?

Thanks for the input :)

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by LowePro » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:00 pm

You don't need a fuse for the 12V fan and pump.
You could use those connectors/splitters if you want to spend the money on them. If your fan and pump already have the matching plugs attached, that seems like a fine idea.
My fan and pump just have wires without any cigarette plug, so I stripped an inch off the insulation and clipped the wires directly to the battery terminals with something called an "Alligator Clip" or "Battery Clamp" (Gooogle it). It wasn't not hard.

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by BBadger » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:49 pm

Yeah, just avoid using an inverter unless you really do need 120V (AC). In that case, you would probably be better off just asking to use the generator for a little bit to avoid the conversion in the first place. There are plenty of fans, pumps, and whatnot that work perfectly fine on 12V.

Those cigarette lighter connectors in that picture are okay if you have cigarette adapters. Otherwise, you can just wire directly to the power source. I would turn on devices on your system using dedicated switches, not just plugging in your stuff, because the switches will reduce electrical damage to the connectors from sparks.

For charging you should also buy a smart charger. Avoid discharging deep cycle batteries below 50% of their rated capacity if you want them to live for a while. How to know how much you've discharged? Use the (voltage x amp-hour rating) to determine total joules of energy (V x Amps x hours) in the battery. Then for your devices, use (watts x time) to see how many joules would be used. If you're using the same voltage everywhere, you can just calculate using how many amps are used, and how many hours you're running.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by uncle sticky » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:47 pm

Don't listen to the Captain. I mean, he's probably right, and I usually ask him about power stuff, but still, he's an unreliable character in most other circumstances.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by aaronrodg » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:02 am

Would it be possible to have a deep cycle battery with say a 2000watt multiple plug inverter attached to it, and a small trickle charger plugged/attached to the inverter, and than looped around and attached to the battery, for a continuious loop recharging system to run small fans/lights, etc from an unused inverter plug..thoughts on this if this makes sense, would it work?

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:04 am

That's certainly possible, but you'll want to use a larger charger. A trickle charger won't keep up with the demand.
I run everything on my MV on a 2000-watt pure sine wave inverter, connected to two deep-cycle batteries. I have a large battery charger commented to one if the inverter's 120VAC outputs. The charger is connected back to the deep-cycle batteries, thus keeping them charged.
This way, I don't need a generator or solar. I get continuous free electricity. (Well, it's not free, I had to buy the batteries and inverter and charger).
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by JohnEBGud » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:47 am

aaronrodg wrote:Would it be possible to have a deep cycle battery with say a 2000watt multiple plug inverter attached to it, and a small trickle charger plugged/attached to the inverter, and than looped around and attached to the battery, for a continuious loop recharging system to run small fans/lights, etc from an unused inverter plug..thoughts on this if this makes sense, would it work?
If I understand what you're saying, no it won't work. The charger would have to run at 100% efficiency just to replace the power it was drawing to charge the battery that was powering it. To have a net benefit, the charger would have to run at greater than 100% efficiency. Because the efficiency of the charger must be less than 100% due to the laws of physics, what you describe will cause the battery to discharge faster than if it wasn't connected at all.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Skuzzy61 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:23 am

JohnEBGud wrote:If I understand what you're saying, no it won't work. The charger would have to run at 100% efficiency just to replace the power it was drawing to charge the battery that was powering it. To have a net benefit, the charger would have to run at greater than 100% efficiency. Because the efficiency of the charger must be less than 100% due to the laws of physics, what you describe will cause the battery to discharge faster than if it wasn't connected at all.
That is 100% correct.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by LowePro » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:42 pm

"Would it be possible to have a deep cycle battery with say a 2000watt multiple plug inverter attached to it, and a small trickle charger plugged/attached to the inverter, and than looped around and attached to the battery, for a continuious loop recharging system to run small fans/lights, etc from an unused inverter plug..thoughts on this if this makes sense, would it work?"

No. That's perpetual motion/generating more energy from less energy. Not physically possible.
You CAN use a solar trickle charger, attached directly to the battery terminals, which will help replenish some of your power.

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by maladroit » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:43 pm

All I'd add is that when connecting an inverter to a battery, use the absolute shortest thickest cables you can manage. NO, even shorter and thicker than what you were just thinking.

None of the multi-hundred-watt inverters can actually manage that throughput from the cigarette plug in your dashboard. 300 watts from the AC plug translates to maybe 350 watts from the 12V source (when counting inefficiencies). That's almost 30 amps. I mount my inverters no more that two feet away from the battery, with 8 gauge wire.

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:29 am

Good point!!
I use a 2000-watt inverter on my MV. I originally had the batteries about 8 or 10 feet away. I used 2-gauge cable, and it wasn't enough, so I doubled them up, two 2-gauge "+" cables and two 2-gauge "-" cables.
That wasn't enough, it barely managed half its rated output, and only for a short time before the low-volt alarm went off.
I did a redesign with the batteries within two feet of the inverter, with doubled-up 2-gauge cables. NOW it works, It'll do 1500-1600 watts. It needs even bigger than short, doubled up 2-gauge cables to max Itself all the way out but I'm at the limit of what my charging system can keep up with.
When you're drawing over a thousand watts, you need well over 100 amps from the batteries! You need multiple batteries and multiple alternators to sustain that.
Maladroit is right, buying the inverter with the power rating you need is only half the story. You gotta have all that power first, then the cables to move it.

Of course, you can plug a battery charger into the inverter to keep the batteries topped off...
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by aaronrodg » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:51 am

JohnEBGud wrote:
aaronrodg wrote:Would it be possible to have a deep cycle battery with say a 2000watt multiple plug inverter attached to it, and a small trickle charger plugged/attached to the inverter, and than looped around and attached to the battery, for a continuious loop recharging system to run small fans/lights, etc from an unused inverter plug..thoughts on this if this makes sense, would it work?
If I understand what you're saying, no it won't work. The charger would have to run at 100% efficiency just to replace the power it was drawing to charge the battery that was powering it. To have a net benefit, the charger would have to run at greater than 100% efficiency. Because the efficiency of the charger must be less than 100% due to the laws of physics, what you describe will cause the battery to discharge faster than if it wasn't connected at all.

That's really good info. ThnX.

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by rmc50 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:27 pm

I am a little late joining this discussion, but I would like to comment on a few things.

The original poster indicated that the desire was to run "cooling". In general, using battery power to operate cooling is not a good idea, and an even worse idea to use an inverter. The amount of power required to achieve cooling would generally require so much battery capacity that it just isn't worth it, especially for a week. A small generator would serve you much better.

If you do use battery power, operating at the battery voltage would be more efficient than converting the battery voltage to something else. Pumps, fans and general purpose motorscan be obtained that work at 12 volts.

To clarify something said earlier, there IS a 10 to 1 ratio converting from 12 volts to 120: the current. If you assume the inverter is 100% efficient (which it isn't) a motor that required 1 amp at 120 volts would draw 10 amps from a 12 volt battery/inverted. The WATTS remeain the same: 1x120 = 120 Watts = 10x12

Inverters use power themselves. The efficiency of the inverter can be relatively good IF you are operating near their maximum power output. The inverter will draw some power even if you aren't drawing anything off them at all, and the bigger the inverter, the larger its "idle" power is likely to be. So it may not be a good idea to over rate your inverted if efficiency is a prime concern.

But another concern is reliability. Inverters get hot doing their thing, and when operated near 100% of their rated power they could overheat, especially if the ambient is rather hot. I would not recommend operating any electrical device at anything over 80% capacity except for short duration.

The next issue is the battery. Batteries are rated in Amp-Hours. If you are operating a device that required 100 Watts at 120 volts then it would draw 10 amps from the battery. The normal "27 series" lead-acid deep cycle battery is rated at around 100 amp-hours, which would last 10 hours at a 10 amp draw. But you would probably find that the inverter will shut off well before that due to the voltage dropping below its threshold, so you may only get 7 or 8 hours of use.

Charging the battery is similar: if you have removed 100 amp-hours from the battery, you need to restore 100 amp-hours to the battery. If you have a 10 amp charger that would take 10 hours, IF charging was 100 % efficient and the charger was "smart" enough. It isn't efficient and the charger's aren't that smart. Figure 80% efficiency, and that charging beyond 80% capacity is going to take a lot of time. So where are you going to get a source of charging for 12 hours?

Increasing the discharge / charge rate only lowers the efficiency. If you draw the power from the battery at 20 amps instead of 10 you may only get 80 amp-hours from it. Likewise, if you attempt to charge at 20 amps you won't cut the charge time in half, perhaps more like 60%.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the cheap inverters are not all that reliable. If you go that route, I suggest that you have a backup, as if your inverter fails halfway through the week you will have nothing. Keep the inverter out of the dust, as they have a cooling fan that will draw it in and dust makes a rather effective thermal blanket!

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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by BBadger » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:23 pm

Well there are many different ways to perform cooling. If you're using something energy intensive like air conditioning, the batteries will definitely deplete quickly. However, other forms of cooling, such as evaporation cooling, only use as much energy as powering some computer fans and a small water pump. Even more convenient, such devices can run on 12V or less, so no inverter is needed.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Blue_Bike » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:17 am

You may find that you do better with two 6v golf cart type batteries wired in series than one 12v deep cycle / marine battery for your purposes.

It will cost you more initially, but when out on the playa the things you depend on that fail or work less than optimally can be frustrating and detract from your experience to the point where you regret trying to save what at that point may seem like an insignificant sum. If you have the room for two batteries and can possibly afford it up front, I would suggest going that route. They may last years beyond their warrantied life if not used constantly throughout the year and if maintained and kept charged when not in use, and you could be good to go for your next 5-10 burns. If used and stored correctly you could see 100 - 150 charge cycles out of them.

Most bus conversions I have seen use 6v golf cart type batteries for their house systems, wired together to create the voltage used by the inverter. Trojan brand batteries are popular for this purpose.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:02 am

Not to argue, because the two-6V setups work great, but I've read many places that no one has any conclusive data that series 6v actually works any better than parallel 12V. If you have some I'd truly like to check it out, I have other applications for it besides BM stuff.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Skuzzy61 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:57 am

Well, let's see.

A lead acid 6V battery has 3 cells which can output a maximum of 2.1V each (open circuit voltage).
A lead acid 12V battery has 6 cells which can output a maximum of 2.1V each (open circuit voltage).

If the amp ratings for the batteries are equivalent, with respect to their voltages, then there should be no difference in how long either lasts under load. If anything the 6V series battery should not last as long due to loss through the cable connecting the batteries.

I would like some data showing that to be incorrect. I really would.
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Blue_Bike » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:04 am

Captain GD, my limited understanding of the differences between using 2x 6v vs 1x 12v is that it has more to do with the construction of the specific battery or batteries used and the DOD (depth of discharge) that the battery will be subject to than anything else. I think you are right in that the differences between using 2x 6v vs 1x 12v of otherwise identically constructed batteries may be a bit more academic than practical for most people's uses.

I lifted the following three paragraphs describing the attributes of various vehicle battery types from:

http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycl ... ry%20Types

"Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need. Although these can be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery case (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up to true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.

Marine batteries are usually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, though a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may or may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the term deep cycle is often overused - we have even seen the term "deep cycle" used in automotive starting battery advertising. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not much of an option."

When I bought my bus conversion last year I knew up front that I would need to replace the house batteries in getting it road ready again and fit for bookbinding. Knowing nothing yet about RV electrical systems, I just figured I would use 12v Costco deep cycle/marine/RV batteries. Fortunately the RV specialist in MN guiding me on the 4 month bus prep project had me replace the existing sixteen 6v Trojan golf cart batteries with the same. I have since found I can run both rooftop AC units at the same time for a hours at a time while driving using inverted battery power and engaging the battery merge switch which connects the starting batteries with the house batteries (both are 24v systems). When in camp, when the house batteries are charged I can run both ACs on battery power alone for a couple of hours at least (without the battery merge switch engaged) before the inverters want to auto-start the generator.

Btw, the house electric system consists of a 50 amp shore power connection, a 8kw diesel gen set, four banks of four 6v batteries, two Trace SW4024 inverter/chargers, and various devices like a battery equalizer, etc.

For some reason I have always struggled with understanding electricity and electronics. I have much left to learn so I can diagnose and repair my buss' electrical systems anywhere near as quickly as I can address the mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic issues that inevitably arise with a well-used vintage vehicle.

I hope this answered your question. The link above seems to be a good resource for knowledge on these subjects.
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Eyazee
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Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:26 am
Burning Since: 2016

Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Eyazee » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:31 am

Hi. I have a 2k watt inverter. Connected to a deep cycle which is connected to car battery. I run a 700w tv and a small flat screen. Can I run a DC batt with a auto battery? Or do I need to use a 3 bank DCYCLE battery all connected?
Thanx

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FIGJAM
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by FIGJAM » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:53 am

Not a good idea to mix batteries.

Ideally you want your batteries to match and hopefully bought at the same time.
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Captain Goddammit
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Re: Using a deep cycle battery - inverters?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:58 am

Yes, but with a lot of "ifs". How much power you can get, and for how long, depends on three things: how big the battery is, how big the cables connecting it to the battery are (often overlooked - you need REALLY BIG ones) and what is keeping the battery charged.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."

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