Was there a waiting room problem?

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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by ygmir » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:41 pm

cingofish wrote:I also entered the waiting room at 11:45 and by 12:35 there were no tickets available. I thought maybe I should take a year off after 9 consecutive Burns however, then I was flattered to see The Jack Rabbit Speaks newsletter V20:#12:3.24.16 graciously selected my picture for the cover just after the sale. I was instantly re-inspired and am seeking (2) tickets!

Has BRC ever denied anyone entrance while holding $400 tickets when vehicle passes were no longer available or 'sold out'?

Suggestion: Vehicle passes should be sold August 1 to provide ample time to secure driving/camping situations or simply add $10 to ticket price.

Cingo
yes as relates to a vehicle.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by BBadger » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:57 pm

cingofish wrote:Has BRC ever denied anyone entrance while holding $400 tickets when vehicle passes were no longer available or 'sold out'?
Why, pray tell, would anyone ever purchase a vehicle pass in the first place if the driver could make up some lame excuse for not having one and be admitted anyway? Do you think that works for Burning Man tickets too?

Vehicle + No vehicle pass = NO SOUP FOR YOU. GTFO. DO NOT PASS GO. DO NOT COLLECT $200.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by ygmir » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:21 pm

BBadger wrote:
cingofish wrote:Has BRC ever denied anyone entrance while holding $400 tickets when vehicle passes were no longer available or 'sold out'?
Why, pray tell, would anyone ever purchase a vehicle pass in the first place if the driver could make up some lame excuse for not having one and be admitted anyway? Do you think that works for Burning Man tickets too?

Vehicle + No vehicle pass = NO SOUP FOR YOU. GTFO. DO NOT PASS GO. DO NOT COLLECT $200.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by sparr » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:49 am

BBadger wrote:Vehicle + No vehicle pass = NO SOUP FOR YOU. GTFO. DO NOT PASS GO. DO NOT COLLECT $200.
I'm thinking of bringing a tow dolly this year, so I can drag someone across the line without using their vehicle pass and they can gift it.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by ygmir » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:17 am

sparr wrote:
BBadger wrote:Vehicle + No vehicle pass = NO SOUP FOR YOU. GTFO. DO NOT PASS GO. DO NOT COLLECT $200.
I'm thinking of bringing a tow dolly this year, so I can drag someone across the line without using their vehicle pass and they can gift it.
interesting idea. please report back on how that works?
Seems it'd fit the rules for needing a pass, but make sure you do research.
It'd be a super bummer to get to gate, after all the time in line, with a vehicle on a dolly behind you, and find out it's not ok. It may trigger™
you having to also tow it back out? not sure how that would be handled.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by BBadger » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:17 pm

Or let's go a step further: a "dogsled" trailer carrying a vehicle, being pulled by a team of motorcycles. No vehicle passes needed at all. With that kind of effort, and technical legitimacy, I'd probably let them through.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by FIGJAM » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:21 pm

Seems to me that any motor vehicle being towed through gate would need a MVD invite or wind up in D lot.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by sparr » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:50 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Seems to me that any motor vehicle being towed through gate would need a MVD invite or wind up in D lot.
I'd love to fork this to a new thread. This is going to be an important topic, and other people might want to search for it. I'll follow you if you fork it.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:07 pm

The rules specifically state that trailered vehicles do not need a vehicle pass. A tow dolly might be a grey area, as it's not really a full trailer. A vehicle being towed on a dolly actually needs current registration as if it were being driven, unlike a vehicle that is entirely riding on a trailer. One end of it is still physically rolling on the road.
Another example of something similar: I have a camper on the back of my truck. The camper itself is required to have a license plate, current tabs and registration. However, if I were to put it on my trailer, I could carry it without any registration.
The rules do not say any towed vehicle needs an MV invite letter, they only say an MV needs one.
There's no issue getting back out, there's no rules about leaving. No pass required.
I'm quite sure if someone had no VP you could carry them in on a trailer behind a VP-ed vehicle, and a tow dolly probably counts but its not as clear in black & white for certain.

Therefore, I can see this scenario: I have a large flatbed trailer that my MV rides in on. If I had a campmate or good friend with no VP, I could unload my MV, pay the fee to exit and return through the gate, then trailer that person into the event and be completely within the rules. Its admittedly using a loophole, but I see no rule being broken.

If a camp had several members without VPs, as long as they had ONE VP and an adequate tow vehicle, they could rent borrow or buy a trailer if none of them already had one... it'd be time consuming and a pain in the ass, but it would work to get all their rigs in.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by some seeing eye » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:59 pm

The intent of the VP program is to limit the outgoing flow on 34-447S for safety and exodus times. So towing in a vehicle that is going to drive out off the trailer all the way to the I80 junction defeats the purpose.

The Gate-GPE is smart. They are not going to permit nonsense.

The VP system is not perfect. It may not deal with D Lot or 447N in a detailed way. But it works well enough that the population cap will start to rise in the future.

I think Reddit of Facebook would be a better forum for discussing weird edge cases and rule stretching which do not improve the event for more than one individual.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:00 pm

This is direct from the Burning Man Tickets page: "VEHICLE PASSES

All vehicles driving into Black Rock City are required to have a vehicle pass displayed in the windshield. Motorcycles and towed vehicles are exempt from the vehicle pass requirement."

On what grounds can Gate/GPE deny entry to a towed vehicle behind a truck with a VP?
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by BBadger » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:46 pm

Hmm, yeah, I was wondering about people hauling in other vehicles on trailers too. It may seem far-fetched and not worth it to avoid an $80 VP, but with an actual shortage of VPs it certainly could be worth it. The gate could try and amend it to only refer to Mutant Vehicles, but it'd be hard to test for that given that they may be fully functional, legal road vehicles.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by wraith » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:15 am

some seeing eye wrote:The intent of the VP program is to limit the outgoing flow on 34-447S for safety and exodus times. So towing in a vehicle that is going to drive out off the trailer all the way to the I80 junction defeats the purpose.

The Gate-GPE is smart. They are not going to permit nonsense.

The VP system is not perfect. It may not deal with D Lot or 447N in a detailed way. But it works well enough that the population cap will start to rise in the future.

I think Reddit of Facebook would be a better forum for discussing weird edge cases and rule stretching which do not improve the event for more than one individual.
A population cap rise doesn't really do much good if it doesn't include a vehicle cap rise as well. It just means more people who have to limit what they can actually bring out to the Playa to what they can get someone else to haul or drag out on the Burner Express.

Not great for encouraging mid-to-large art projects, that.

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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Major Krash » Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:33 pm

taken to an extreme, each camp now gets an 18-wheeler with flatbed trailer...first it hauls in the camp infrastructure, then it hauls in the camp's vehicles (2-3 at a time) to the camp parking lot.

probably get by with 1:10 passes this way (2000 or so for the theme camp's 18-wheelers, and 18,000 for the individuals, assuming 200,000 pop)

of course, Exodus would be a nightmare with all those vehicles leaving individually!
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by BBadger » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:25 pm

The supreme irony of consolidating vehicles down into fewer, but larger and heavier, transport vehicles is that heavier vehicles produce far more wear and tear on the roads than many lighter vehicles. Road damage goes up the fourth power of weight (weight4).

There's probably an optimal point where reducing the volume of vehicles is not offset by the damage caused by heavier vehicles on roads. Maybe the VP pass prices will go up so much that it'll pay for that extra maintenance, while simultaneously forcing consolidation.

Perhaps we could see a program where limited "Early Entry" passes are issued to spread out peak road traffic, perhaps tied to an "Early Entry VP" that requires a minimum number of vehicle occupants. Of course that's only for entry. It's really exodus that's sees an unavoidable sustained level of traffic.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:41 pm

BBadger wrote:The supreme irony of consolidating vehicles down into fewer, but larger and heavier, transport vehicles is that heavier vehicles produce far more wear and tear on the roads than many lighter vehicles. Road damage goes up the fourth power of weight (weight4).

There's probably an optimal point where reducing the volume of vehicles is not offset by the damage caused by heavier vehicles on roads. Maybe the VP pass prices will go up so much that it'll pay for that extra maintenance, while simultaneously forcing consolidation.

Perhaps we could see a program where limited "Early Entry" passes are issued to spread out peak road traffic, perhaps tied to an "Early Entry VP" that requires a minimum number of vehicle occupants. Of course that's only for entry. It's really exodus that's sees an unavoidable sustained level of traffic.
Thats twice in two days! Holy Shmokies...



I seem to remember a slightly heated thread (or two) a couple years back where the point of heavy vehicle traffic being more damaging to the roads (rendering the 'protect the roads!' part of the case for VP's invalid) was brought up.. It remains my opinion that the vehicle passes are an inane process thought up by bureaucrats that like to charge people money for things they were used to doing for free.

Just wait until next year when the DMV invokes the Mutant Vehicle tax- "Don't worry! We're gonna use the hundreds of thousands dollars in revenue to rectify the damage done to the playa by all the land yachts cruising around out there... Oh, and in the long term we will eventually be able to raise the cap on how many MV's we are able license"...


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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by BBadger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:36 am

A-RockLeFrench wrote:I seem to remember a slightly heated thread (or two) a couple years back where the point of heavy vehicle traffic being more damaging to the roads (rendering the 'protect the roads!' part of the case for VP's invalid) was brought up.. It remains my opinion that the vehicle passes are an inane process thought up by bureaucrats that like to charge people money for things they were used to doing for free.
What would be far more convincing is if the price of tickets were dropped by the equivalent amount divided by the projected number of people that would need to share a VP (ex: 70000 people / 27000 passes ~ 2.6, so for a $80 VP, each ticket would be dropped by $80 / 2.6 = $30). Then the VP prices could be jacked or reduced in quantity enough to effect their supposed purpose without actually charging us more in aggregate.

Instead, ticket prices, nor available quantities, have not fallen since VPs have been introduced. In this year alone, the price increase on VPs has generated an additional $810,000, for $2.16Million in total which goes.... where?
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:21 am

A-RockLeFrench wrote: It remains my opinion that the vehicle passes are an inane process thought up by bureaucrats that like to charge people money for things they were used to doing for free.
This NAILS it. The desired effect comes limiting the ratio of passes to tickets sold, but why scalp us the extra $80? To encourage carpooling? Bullshit! Almost no one goes to Burning Man for less than a few thousand dollars. $80 does not determine whether they will drive or fly/take a bus/ride in back of someone's already overloaded Subaru.
It's exactly what A-Rock said. There is NO valid other explanation.

Wait till the MV registration fees start... I can't believe they've missed that idea so far.
And the placed theme camp fees will be next. It's Just the way things work.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Dr Helix » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:10 am

They just took a page from the airlines is all. Ticket prices? We're trying to keep them low! Just add fees to everything. And when someone bitches they say, "Well you don't HAVE to bring a piece of luggage with you", or "Well you don't HAVE to drive to event do you?"
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Elderberry » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:33 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Wait till the MV registration fees start... I can't believe they've missed that idea so far.
And the placed theme camp fees will be next. It's Just the way things work.
Being that both MV's and placed camps actually have a pretty big benefit to the whole event, I doubt that would happen. Not to mention it comes too close to pay to play. Or rather the more you pay the better your placement. Nope, no way in hell that would happen. (fingers crossed)
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by vargaso » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:38 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
A-RockLeFrench wrote: It remains my opinion that the vehicle passes are an inane process thought up by bureaucrats that like to charge people money for things they were used to doing for free.
This NAILS it. The desired effect comes limiting the ratio of passes to tickets sold, but why scalp us the extra $80? To encourage carpooling? Bullshit! Almost no one goes to Burning Man for less than a few thousand dollars. $80 does not determine whether they will drive or fly/take a bus/ride in back of someone's already overloaded Subaru.
It's exactly what A-Rock said. There is NO valid other explanation.

Wait till the MV registration fees start... I can't believe they've missed that idea so far.
And the placed theme camp fees will be next. It's Just the way things work.
From what I've heard, the vehicle pass thing was born as a compromise with local and state government agencies in order for the event to continue and grow. Now, I totally disagree with the need to "grow" the event, it's too fucking big already. But, I also don't believe the vehicle pass was introduced just to bilk us for more cash or out of some sadistic bureaucratic impulse.

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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by rivetgeek » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:29 am

The key to the towed vehicle issue is that it is illegal to ride in a towed vehicle (and I doubt the cops would find it as amusing as gate), so everyone in the towed vehicle is likely walking from Gerlach, which is the only reasonable place to hook up the towed vehicle. Unless of course there's room in the towing vehicle, in which case, why not carpool to begin with.

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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Ratty » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:34 am

I wish CO would pop in here and tell us about towing his golf cart/work vehicle in last year. Porta Potty project is DPW but his ride doesn't look the part. There was some confusion upon entrance.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:01 pm

rivetgeek wrote:The key to the towed vehicle issue is that it is illegal to ride in a towed vehicle (and I doubt the cops would find it as amusing as gate), so everyone in the towed vehicle is likely walking from Gerlach, which is the only reasonable place to hook up the towed vehicle. Unless of course there's room in the towing vehicle, in which case, why not carpool to begin with.
That's not the key, no one suggested riding in a towed vehicle.
It would work like this: first truck goes in with VP. Unload trailer and any extra people, then go back out to Gerlach or Reno or wherever, load up the second truck, carry it in. Then, if applicable, go back out again and get the second truck's trailer, or the third truck, or whatever you've got that needs in, and trailer it in.
The main limitation is the time it takes to get through the gate.
I know we have VPs out of legal necessity, from everything I can find & read, this is a perfectly legal move that could solve a no-VP emergency. You wouldn't just carpool because maybe you came from different parts of the country, or you maybe you had two trucks and trailers full of stuff to bring.
All it takes is ONE VP to leap-frog all of it through the gate.
No one has shown how it isn't in perfect 100% compliance with the rules.
In-and-out is permitted, towed-in vehicles with no VP is permitted.

I doubt anyone is going to go to the trouble to do this, but if I had a good friend who bought expensive tickets, built awesome art, and travelled across the country but got shut out from buying a VP and wasn't lucky enough to stumble across one enroute, would I tell him "sorry, sucks to be you" or would I go and legally, properly carry him in, breaking no rules whatsoever?
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:13 pm

Every piece of anecdotal evidence I have heard says no vehicle got through the gate without a VP. There was probably a small amount of float of tickets and VP exchanged at the gate. But it's pretty dumb to plan a big trip on that basis. (Unless you are a festival hippie that lives to show up at events without a ticket just for the fun of it)

One of the best aspects of the VP program is the allocation to low income ticket holders. That allows regular ticket holders to help out low income ticket holders with transportation. So if you did not get a VP and you have a ticket, make friends with a low income ticket holder once they are done allocating them.

Pure speculation, but it would be logical for the VP's to rise with the population cap, but in a way that encourages, fly-in, Burner Express and increased carpooling - more people per car each year. From my understanding, the VP proposal is purely driven by the NSP through the BLM permit process to improve safety on exodus. The VP's should be priced high enough that people don't purchase them and then don't use them. Since the detailed financials are not published, there is no way to know if the ticket prices would have been higher or lower at a specific VP price.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by sparr » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:48 pm

Trying to fork this conversation about towing vehicles to its own thread: viewtopic.php?f=464&t=76957

Hopefully we can un-derail this thread. Probably hoping in vain, but it doesn't hurt [much] to try.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:42 pm

Moderator Sparr has spoken.

So anyway, for anyone who doesn't agree that you could use a flatbed to haul in a friend with no VP... what's the point where it's OK/not OK? Let's say I carry a friend's van with all his gear, all the way there from Seattle. That's a trailered vehicle for sure.
What if I trailer it from Oregon? How about from Cedarville? Reno? Gerlach? How far do I have to pull it? And, where's the rule that lists the distance a vehicle must have been trailered from?
How do you call this one? A blanket "NO, it's just wrong" would be fine if someone can point out the rule being broken.
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by vargaso » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:44 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Moderator Sparr has spoken.

So anyway, for anyone who doesn't agree that you could use a flatbed to haul in a friend with no VP... what's the point where it's OK/not OK? Let's say I carry a friend's van with all his gear, all the way there from Seattle. That's a trailered vehicle for sure.
What if I trailer it from Oregon? How about from Cedarville? Reno? Gerlach? How far do I have to pull it? And, where's the rule that lists the distance a vehicle must have been trailered from?
How do you call this one? A blanket "NO, it's just wrong" would be fine if someone can point out the rule being broken.
It doesn't technically violate the written rule, but it goes against the spirit of it. For that reason, I can see Gate denying anyone trying it. They'd get an argument, but still. I'd love to see someone try it, I think the vehicle pass thing is ridiculous. Not me, but someone. :)

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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:51 pm

That would have lawsuit written all over it.
If you publish rules saying trailered vehicles are exempt from the VP requirement, then deny someone because they have a trailered vehicle without a VP, which party has done something wrong?
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Re: Was there a waiting room problem?

Post by Corvus » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:57 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:That would have lawsuit written all over it.
If you publish rules saying trailered vehicles are exempt from the VP requirement, then deny someone because they have a trailered vehicle without a VP, which party has done something wrong?
In order to sue you would need to be denied entry. By the time the lawsuit wends its way through the court system the event would be long over and the suit likely be denied because it is now moot.¹ Even if it is not, and you win, likely all you get is your ticket fee back. But you didn't get to go to TTITD that year all for an $80 pass which so far has been readily available. Sounds like a terrible plan.

¹As a member of a small political party that often has to sue to get a candidate on the ballot, I've watched this scenario play out time and again.

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