Solution to ticket problem (2 week event)

[Divinefeminine]

The 11th principle – giving others a chance

Opening the event for 2 weeks. Have a 1st weekers and 2nd weekers. The first weekers leave after the man burns and a few days later the 2nd weekers can come. Perhaps not all the art needs to be burned down and perhaps the 2nd group can add there own sources of artistic expression. During the first week the man can be burned with the whole firework extravaganza and the 2nd week a smaller effigy could be set up on the playa with a more modest show but they get to see the temple burn.

But is it really about seeing the wood burn? No, it about the mystique of the environment and really about the endless possibilities with the people and the culture and society that develops. To include all that want to attend. Better to have an opportunity to attend than not at all.

Will people not leave after a week? How about an 11th principle. The principle of Giving others a chance, a principle as strong in the minds and hearts of burners as leaving no trace is. Lets make this principle happen so others that want to attend can, so YOU can attend next year if you aren't lucky enough to get a ticket.

Lets really make it all inclusive and not just for the few. For the few established people who have already been associated with camps, for those few type As who are “on top of it” with super fast fingers that click the mouse first and with super fast computers. How much potential (people potential) is being filtered out, how many possibilities will be left out. Won't it take away from the Magic? Isn't it creating an exclusive event with a commodification of tickets.

We burners are reaching out to the creative geniuses that created this transcendental event where 70,000 people can come. We know you can do it, open it up to the 10s of thousands more that want to be a part

Do we want to have so much rejection. Turn people off. Will that be achieving the transcendental goals. Don't we want to give more and more people a chance. Open it up longer, find a way! I sure as hell want my 2 year old daughter to have the chance of love, and transcendental experience that was open to me. To find the loves and lovers that I had on the playa. The blueprint is there its already established this is the easy part. Lets make it happen!

Please respond with thoughts I'd love to take this further with you .

[Dr Helix]

I don't know where to begin on how hard this would be. I'll give you just one example. Try to envision 70,000 people leaving the event, while another 70,000 people are trying to get in. It would be a nightmare of epic proportions and would likely end up in a massive traffic accident that might take days to sort out. I have many other logistical impossibilities but I am sure others can outline them. So. Just. No.

[trilobyte]

I've made an edit to the subject line for clarity.

I believe the idea of a 2 week event was discussed fairly exhaustively in 2012 (you're welcome to look them up if you like). No thanks. Placement would be a nightmare - either having giant gaps where a placed camp was there one week but not the next, or more realistically where they'd be setting up or striking for days before/after they were operating (but ppl kept trying to party anyways). LNT and potties would become massively more complicated (with week 2 people effectively having to play LNT for a camp they never saw). And population control would be a mess. There was a short window a couple years ago where the event was at capacity, and BLM was letting people in as people departed. Now imagine that window stretching for several days... not only painful, but reaching points of being unsafe (with people possibly needing days' worth of food/water at hand, and horrific traffic issues).

[vargaso]

A more feasible solution would be to put BRC on wheels and do a 20-city tour. Wheels of Feels! C'mom BMORG, make it happen, why aren't you listening to the COMMUNITY!?

[misfit]

staffing...
logistics...
would be a major concern.

[some seeing eye]

Hello Divinefeminine, welcome newly to Eplaya. Looking forward to your contributions and discussions.

For the 2 week idea to be realized, the BMORG board has to pursue it with the BLM and succeed.

The BMORG is better accessible directly or through personal connections, not so much by ePlaya

[Divinefeminine]

Could you have imagined that over 70,000 people would converge in the desert for a week and leave no trace. Could it be possible to have 70,000 more or have we reached our limits. Do we want to think about limiting our possibilities?

Placement of camps problem: Have the 1st group set up their camps, and have the 2nd group repopulate the camps and take them down.

People keep partying and don't leave problem: the principle giving others a chance like the principle of LNT. People will leave if it is made a principle! they won't linger around and party just like in LNT, they won't leave anything on the playa.

70,000 leaving while 70,000 coming problem: They don't need to come and go at the same moment or same day, not even within a few days of each other. So there is enough time for the first group to leave with out any new traffic issues. Maybe there can be a whole week that passes before the 2nd group comes. Can there also be imagined two routes to enter and leave the playa? A road where they can Egress and Ingress

LNT problem: the 2nd group will have to pick more up I guess? Sound awful .... Pay them for it...Make their ticket $100 cheaper

The poop problem: Well like anything else where there is a will there is a way. The revenue from all the extra tickets sold we can find a way to keep the playa smelling like the playa

Perhaps its easy to give a definitive No if you have a ticket and know you'll likely always get one since you happened to become so embedded within, and a little more discomfort or randos seem slightly unpleasant. But imagine now you are like everyone else and you have that 1/5 chance of getting a ticket with your odds slimming each and every year. I think you'd be more apt to find a solution. People lets not quiver over the waiting room BS but find a real solution to accommodate!

Lets use our imagination and come up with the solution!

[AntiM]

>Placement of camps problem: Have the 1st group set up their camps, and have the 2nd group repopulate the camps and take them down.

Right there ... who do you think owns the camps? Individual participants. Who is going to leave all their stuff, and the vehicles to haul every bit of infrastructure in and out, behind for strangers to use? Not to mention the necessary tools, solar panels, generators, etc. That's a lot of money for small camps like ours to entrust to strangers. How do you make sure the camp is not abused or taken? How do you get it back to the owners? I may be open to gifting, but not to gifting our trailer and pickup truck and the camp infrastructure we have invested in and cared for for so many years.

Unworkable.

[Captain Goddammit]

You think I'd deal with cleaning up after some other camp for $100? I wouldn't do it for $1000!
Just "imaginig" separate entrance and exit roads sounds great, but those roads aren't there and building a new highway is absolutely unrealistic, obtaining the land would be next to impossible and the cost to build a road is far more than Burning Man could dream of paying. You can't just "imagine" a road! You need HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars and all the land.

Anti M already hit on the next least realistic point, having one set of people set up "the camps" then another set of people take them over and remove them. Your profile says you've been a burner since 2007! You must know "the camps" like Anti M said are not public infrastructure, they're all individual personal property. i can't even begin to describe everything wrong with that idea.

I know you're just throwing out possibilities to make BM accessible to anyone who wants to attend, like it used to be. Everyone wants that. No harm done in talking. But if we really want to solve the problem we need solutions that don't create more problems than they solve!

[AntiM]

We actually do have a "solution" in place. This is what the regionals were supposed to be, bringing Burning Man to those who cannot go to Black Rock. However, many burners go to both, some to as many events as possible.

[Divinefeminine]

Back to the camp problem: Divide your camp in half. Have half the people that you know and trust stay and set up and have half the people that you also know and trust, not strangers, stay for the 2nd week and take the camp down so that the infrastructure is ensured to be secure. Plus it divides the work up in two groups making things a bit easier. Whats more important, that every single one of your camp mates are together or that new people can come and get a chance and be a part of your camp and grow with your camp? Radical Inclusion

The road problem: I'm not suggesting building a whole new road. But how do we get on the playa? We go off the road and start driving in the desert at 10mph until we reach the Playa. Find another spot In the desert for people to exit from and drive to the main road that is already there. Also don't have people coming and going at the same moment.

The point is I may not have all the answers but this is where we should put our minds. If we can get 70,000 people to black rock city and leave no trace there are ways to include more. To really make this event adhere to those 10 principles especially the Radical Inclusion one.

[some seeing eye]

Original Poster, keep up your participation on ePlaya!

The organizers of the event and the BLM on the lands where Burningman happens are a big Titanic to turn. But it is a worthwhile Titanic to turn.

[Simon of the Playa]

all inclusive.

[tamarakay]

But I want to see all my peoples during my week. This is the only time of year I get to see them. I don't think you have any idea how long people stay cleaning up after week one.

[AntiM]

>Divide your camp in half.

LOL, we are a five member theme camp, and four of us carpool. That vehicle is one we use in real life. We do host international burners, so we usually have a couple new people. However, once we reach ten people, our little theme camp can't handle it well (or I can't). I never have been interested in growing a bigger camp, and little camps are needed too.

I love that you are trying to imagine solutions, but so far the imaginings are pretty radically unworkable on a smaller scale.

And yes, that is the week I see my peoples.

[Dr Helix]

Why stop at two weeks? Why not three? Or the WHOLE YEAR! 52 weeks of Burning man. And let's get permanent facilities out there. With all this new revenue we can build real bathrooms. And running water. SHOWERS! As far as a Man Burn that could be scaled down to maybe a 15 footer that could be mass produced. Same with the Temple. That way you could burn both on Saturday and get everyone on the road Sunday. Day off for staff to wash clothes and such, then greet the next 70,000 coming in Tuesday. Sure one less day, but some things have to be sacrificed in the name of continuity. Think of it! 3.6 million people getting to experience Burning Man in one year! I mean the Playa will be a complete disaster but that's not as important as making sure everyone gets a chance to go. Even in the winter. Might be a bit wet but if you set your mind to it, you can overcome those obstacles as well. So come on! Let's make BM the inclusive experience we all dream of. WE CAN DO IT!

[Eric]

Back to the camp problem: Divide your camp in half.

[mod hat off]
Divide your own damn camp and leave mine the fuck out of this idiocy.
I only get to spend long periods of time with members of one camp out there, and it's practically the only time at all I get to see members of the other camp I belong to.
[/mod hat on]

All your ideas boil down to the same basic one that every "ticket solution" does: "get me in the Gate, no matter what problems it causes for everyone else". Sorry, that's a b.s. reason to screw up the Burn for the people who managed to get tickets. Yes, I know it sucks not being able to just get a ticket like in the old days, but those days are Never Coming Back. Period. Demand is too high.

When you come up with "solutions" you have to remember that were dealing with multiple layers of bureaucracy (county, multiple Federal, tribal), locals that we have to keep on our side or they turn against us in the hearing to continue the event, the schedules of the hundreds of volunteers who keep the event running, the logistics of setting up/ tearing down thousands of camps, plus the mess of making sure that critical infrastructure like toilets and EMTs didn't fall through the cracks.

Everyone can come up with reasons in their head why their plan is "perfect", but it just takes a second of realistic thinking to tear holes in those reasons. As much as we like to think that BRC is it's own magical world, it's still bound to the rules of this one.

[ygmir]

does someone want to call Larry with this idea? or do I have to do it again?

[Divinefeminine]

Back to the camp problem: Divide your camp in half.

[mod hat off]
Divide your own damn camp and leave mine the fuck out of this idiocy.

Sounds good you can have your camp with everyone in it this year. And next year I'll get to have my camp with all my people but you don't get to come. Or is this really becoming about a place that is only for you and your people. And all the rest of us are excluded. Doesn't that defy the principles! the point! and aren't we heading, if not all ready there, to the Default.

[Captain Goddammit]

Good god, pass me some of that stuff, it must be really good shit.

[Papa Bear]

Hmm.. let's see:

• Brand new user to eplaya.
• Within 7 minutes of joining writes an 8-paragraph post complaining about ticket scarcity and bringing up the well-hashed "multiple week" suggestion again.
• Tells other people how they should be arranging their burn.
• Claims to have been burning since '07, but shows no understanding of the logistics of the event (including BLM requirements) or of planning and running a theme camp.
• Firmly resists opportunities to be educated regarding any of those logistical issues. Appeals to magical "we're creative people" argument instead.
• Suggests those who disagree or point out issues are simply being exclusive and defying the principles.

Personally, I think this has the distinct scent of trolling "performance art" about it. Still, on the off chance you're actually serious about this, divinefeminine...

This is a do-ocracy. Perhaps you could take advantage of that to volunteer and do the groundwork that would help you figure out how to make this happen? Join DPW and stay both before the event to set up and after to make sure it all gets cleaned up. Spend your time working gate during the early part of the week, and all the way through exodus at the end. Organize and plan a major theme camp from start to finish, do it well enough to get placed again next year (your call whether you choose to accept directed group tickets that second year), and then figure out how to run it with two completely different crews.

Or if that's too difficult, perhaps you could organize an official regional yourself, learning what's involved even at a far smaller scale. That has the added bonus of creating more opportunities for the folks who still won't be able to get tickets to the big burn (after all, if you're correct that only 1 in 5 people who want to come can get tickets, then adding a second week at the same population would still mean 60% of the people who want to come can't get tickets).

Heck, maybe you'll even find a location that's remote enough to avoid noise complaints, empty enough to allow fire art, close enough to civilization to get sanitation and emergency medical services, politically liberal enough to get around any organized opposition to our brand of radical expression, and possessing sufficient transportation infrastructure to accommodate anyone who ever wants to come.

I'm sure you can find plenty of creative ways to avoid compromises imposed on you from outside agencies, and that on the rare occasion you can't satisfy everyone, you won't mind all that help from people who are only too willing to tell you that you could have done it differently while not being willing to lift a finger themselves.

All that power is in your hands. How much of it are you up for?

[BBadger]

If burners were this coordinated to only stay for their allotted week, to enter and arrive in two non-overlapping phases, and share their camp and/or infrastructure with strangers, I don't think we'd need two events in the first place.

But that's not going to work.

Burners are humans. They're not going to split their camps into two. They're not going to skip years. They're not going to stay for only their designated week.

How would you even enforce this scheme? People leave the event because it's over. With the promise of yet another week of "burning man" people are going to stay even longer. Are police going to raid camps and evict the squatters when they've overstayed their week? To me a 2-week event means I probably end up staying for both weeks or maybe some time less, not that I'm going to pack my bags after my BRC visa expires.

Who coordinates people coming and leaving in two mutually exclusive phases? Who forces them to go? If people could be trusted to leave on certain days we could probably have higher population caps anyway. But no. Huge numbers of people leave right after the temple burn, or after the Man burns. They know it's crowded and awful. They know that they could leave the next day and have a shorter line. But dammit, it's time to leave!

Why would anyone want to split their camp up into two sections? Even if people didn't care that they wouldn't see half their friends, do these camps have two sets of people willing to set-up/tear-down the camps? What about gear? I'm the only person from my camp in this area of the country. Nobody from week-two is going to haul my carport back to Oregon when their week is over.

Strangers taking over the camping space? Good luck with that. What if the first-week people won't leave? What if they leave their crap-ass tents and 15 blue camping chairs, you know, as "gifts" to the next week folks? What about all those lovely wrecked roads and torn up playa from 70,000 people tromping around for a week?

"Yeah man, last week's burn was better."

And even if all of that worked out ...

What about the event itself? With two distinct week-phases, essentially two distinct events, the art would need to be spread out over twice the amount of time and events. How much of the art that you see at BM is designed to be "consumed" twice? Maybe the big metal statues?

Wood, batteries, gasoline, lights, food, water, etc. -- these things are used up by the end of the event. Nobody is going to build two Mans, two Temples, or two Totems of Confessions to burn. Nobody is going to have enough batteries and stocks of fuel to power their lit up art for two weeks. So what you get is an event that is diluted from its original strength. This would happen even if there were two distinct 1-week events at different times of the year. Twice as many people, half the effect.

The candle that burns twice as long must burn half as bright.

It is a shame that not everyone who wishes to attend can attend. However, increased attendance for mediocrity is not a fair trade.

[Dr Helix]

Hmm.. let's see:

• Brand new user to eplaya.
• Within 7 minutes of joining writes an 8-paragraph post complaining about ticket scarcity and bringing up the well-hashed "multiple week" suggestion again.
• Tells other people how they should be arranging their burn.
• Claims to have been burning since '07, but shows no understanding of the logistics of the event (including BLM requirements) or of planning and running a theme camp.
• Firmly resists opportunities to be educated regarding any of those logistical issues. Appeals to magical "we're creative people" argument instead.
• Suggests those who disagree or point out issues are simply being exclusive and defying the principles.

Personally, I think this has the distinct scent of trolling "performance art" about it. Still, on the off chance you're actually serious about this, divinefeminine...

This is a do-ocracy. Perhaps you could take advantage of that to volunteer and do the groundwork that would help you figure out how to make this happen? Join DPW and stay both before the event to set up and after to make sure it all gets cleaned up. Spend your time working gate during the early part of the week, and all the way through exodus at the end. Organize and plan a major theme camp from start to finish, do it well enough to get placed again next year (your call whether you choose to accept directed group tickets that second year), and then figure out how to run it with two completely different crews.

Or if that's too difficult, perhaps you could organize an official regional yourself, learning what's involved even at a far smaller scale. That has the added bonus of creating more opportunities for the folks who still won't be able to get tickets to the big burn (after all, if you're correct that only 1 in 5 people who want to come can get tickets, then adding a second week at the same population would still mean 60% of the people who want to come can't get tickets).

Heck, maybe you'll even find a location that's remote enough to avoid noise complaints, empty enough to allow fire art, close enough to civilization to get sanitation and emergency medical services, politically liberal enough to get around any organized opposition to our brand of radical expression, and possessing sufficient transportation infrastructure to accommodate anyone who ever wants to come.

I'm sure you can find plenty of creative ways to avoid compromises imposed on you from outside agencies, and that on the rare occasion you can't satisfy everyone, you won't mind all that help from people who are only too willing to tell you that you could have done it differently while not being willing to lift a finger themselves.

All that power is in your hands. How much of it are you up for?

The response to this will be priceless.

[Divinefeminine]

Lets think about the trajectory this is heading. This year approximately 20% of the people that wanted tickets got them and 80% didn't. Next year, or a couple of years 10% of the people that want tickets get them. And if things take the same pattern, 1%, and fractions of 1%, in years to come. Does this sound familiar the 1% ? Maybe it still is a duo-ocracy but it seems to be turning into an ARIST-ocracy.

So why am I writing the posts. To start thinking about a change, start some brainstorming. Find a way so it doesn't become another default world 1% problem.

Now lets go back in time to the 1980s when this whole thing started. Did it seem fathomable that 70,000 would come to black rock desert and set up all those camps and art and infrastructure, a fucken airport. Probably not back when the event began in the 80s. Did it happen? Are 10s of thousands coming to the the desert and setting all that up and taking it all down. Pretty unbelievable if you ask me. Are we in the same boat now based on the respones. Not thinking it is fathomable to include more.

My intention is not to tell anyone how to do their burn. I'd love for anyone that wants to be there, to be there. Can it just be bigger in one week? Apparently there are some limitations regarding that. So I thought that extending it for longer might be an option. At least something to think about, to consider. Is it really so out of the realms of possibilities? Like I said before in 1986 was 70,000 people in Black Rock City with an airport in the realms of possibilities back then?

These thoughts seem to really scare some of you for some reason. Someone has to even do an in depth project discrediting me.....researching when I signed on and when I posted and make an elaborate bullet point presentation trying to discredit who I am, and make some strong assumptions about by BM experience. Well guess what, I never ran a camp and I never started a regional event. I've only been 6 times since 2007 and I volunteered by doing lamplighters, serving smoothies at my camp, doing Conclave, having my boyfriend at the time do fire perimeter, etc.. So what do I know....right. Who am I to set my mind free, think and express. Lets bring in Papa Bear (sounds like a big-wig) to put me down.

Papa Bear your statements sum-up to some self-ritous BS that you expect us all to take up the ass, showing how hard maybe you work and how hard I don't work which is irrelevant for me to respond to because it misses the point completely. Its not about me and what I do. The point is to start brainstorming about the possiblities. A way to move forward.

Bbadger came up with some reasonable thoughts. People are people, and yes they are. Maybe they won't leave and give others a chance, and that is a thoughtful response. But aren't we asking them to invoke their highest potentials in the 10 principles and by doing so aren't we asking them to reach the highest ideals of humanity even to outreach the human condition. Can't there be one more principle the greatest one of all, Giving others a chance. Won't they leave because it is one of the 10 principles. I agree Bbadger that that is the biggesst problem and perhaps too idealogical but I like to stay positive.

Well the truth of the matter is I don't have the details legal, logistical, and I am not an organizer of the event and can't put the time into researching the logistics and implementing the strategies to make it work. All I can do is plant the seeds of thought.

And Bbadger, the biggest tragedy now is that so many that want to attend can not attend. THAT IS THE BIGGEST TRAGEDY. I don't think it will necessarily be a mediocre event like you described, in the years to come, you'll have just as many enthusiastic participants as in other weeks. And who was it that said “logic dictates the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few”.

So what do I envision? 2 weeks event. Really 2 weeks. You are right, that will still only permit a minority that want to attend to be able to attend with a percentage that continues to dwindle as the years go by. I do envision A SEASON, THE WHOLE FUCKEN SUMMER. With people that are doing the work, the volunteering, the setting up, the planning, and enough of them for it it last, to rotate in and out. There are other places on this planet, other cities, events and festivals that have people coming and going. So lets do the right thing. And put our minds together to make it possible.

Live Long and Prosper Burners.

[Captain Goddammit]

The event really began in the '90s when the Cacaphony Society invited Harvey to bring his wooden man to their desert party.
There is not an 80% majority of people who want to go to burning man vs. tickets.
That would mean around 350,000 people were trying to go. What's really happening is various methods of gaming the system to buy tickets.
No "research" is necessary to learn when you signed up to eplaya or started coming to BRC, one click on your username tells everyone that.

I said before, no harm done in talking. In this case, fortunately that's all it is.

Your burning man experience as an attendee is surreal and other-worldly but the logistics of making it happen exist in the real world. Your ideas all sound great but no one will take you seriously about this unless you toss out an idea that doesn't rely on magic and fairy dust to actually work.

[BBadger]

I do think it'll be a mediocre event if split into more than one part. At the most basic level, people will be forced to divide their resources among each of the "separate-but-equal" events. Some things could persist across venues, but all the "non-durable goods" would need to be either multiplied, diluted, or remain exclusive to a particular sub-event.

In such a case, would the event really resemble what made it great in the first place? A huge part of the burn is the fact that people prepare for an entire year to make the most of that one week for themselves and for others. It's that singular event that you can attend with your friends, camp, the art you made, the art they made, and all the great things that come with Burning Man. Everybody in the same place. Everyone on the same page. A place where everyone brought things to share and do.

That one week with all the other crazies participating in some ridiculous show. A show not meant for syndication for increased viewership.

Burning Man will probably grow to about 100k participants. A lot of people will be able to attend. Not all, but a lot. I'm okay with that.

[Dr Helix]

If this just conversation than I say have it. No idea is too wild, no counterpoint should be derided. It's fun and sometimes good actions do result. But this is just eplaya. Nothing more. And this conversation will likely fade away just like so many before it. People will tire of the same point-counterpoint, the subtle name calling, and the endless circle of dialogue and simply stop posting. Only to be resurrected some time in the future. Rinse and repeat. But hey, more power to all!

[Captain Goddammit]

Whadda you know, you couldn't weld a soap bubble to an ice cream cone...

[ygmir]

because math.......

[some seeing eye]

If the OP is really interested, the BRC Census and the little factoids the org publish in obscure places tells where people are from, how they got to the event, and the trends, the number of vehicle passes, exodus times, and how many times burners participate before giving up, growing up or whatever. The permit and operating plan are there to read too. I think the population cap is up for renegotiation for 2017, and it is usually been a 5 year plan. So if say the population cap went up by 5000, the vehicle passes would go up proportionally, say 1:3 to population and the exodus time would go up proportionally. This is all off the top of my head - so corrections welcome. It would not be surprising to me that the BORG and the BLM & friends have studied what the ultimate top limit is given various assumptions.