Announcing: The BORG2 . . . and the bet . . .

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
dragonfly Jafe
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:25 am

spectabillis wrote:I am not trying to start an argument, but still not clear to what you are saying. :?:

Are you referring to a problem of them defining what they think is art? How you enforce that? And what to do with others if they do not conform to that definition?
I am refering to the original post;

"...They will obey all safety regulations and all that stuff, but they don’t want to talk to anyone who drives a golf cart. "

I am saying I don't think it will be possible to do this without somebody (likely ALOT of somebodies) talking to "people in golf carts". For legal liability reasons, if nothing else. To check on the "safety measures" if nothing else. And that implies a "veto" power by the "people in carts".

And I think there are "themes" that could be deemed socially inappropriate for BRC that could possibly show up - creating an inevitable interaction between the BMorg2 Zone and the BMorg/LEO when the "C" word gets used. Again, more talking to "people in carts".

It is the BMorg's "house". Even if the "parents" let the "kids" play at being adult and making the decisions, they are not going to let anything bad to the "family" or "house" occur (so who is really in charge?). Not even in the "privacy" of the kids rooms. At least if they are good "parents" they won't.

This can certainly be done, I just don't think it can be done without someone talking to "people in carts". And the "people in carts" having the ultimate veto power.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:32 am

Bob A wrote:Unlike what all the propaganda says the org is not going to stop you from putting art on the playa. If you pay for it through your own funding they are not going to stop you. They are not going to tell you it has to be themed art they are not going to place it all on the back fence line. They are going to let you put it pretty much where you want on the open playa as long as it does not interfere or bother other art. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't set up a whole zone for your art if asked.
But I bet if you just started setting up a piece on the open Playa, you would get a visit by someone "riding a golf cart" pretty darn quick. They might agree to allow you to continue, after an impromptu "Playa application/inspection", but I cannot believe that the BMorg would allow someone to set-up a piece on the open Playa without reviewing it (and possibly vetoing it if it is dangerous or too offensive). I may be splitting hairs here....

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Post by Bob » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:03 am

Bob A wrote:What they won't do is give you a piece of their event.
Why not? They already give over a huge sector of the art space and a whole burn night to a gigantic pile of plywood invested with pseudo-religious overtones. They've done it before with Helco and the Opera and Plundertown. They've done a lot of things that don't exactly follow the rules you imagine them to follow themselves and impose on the hoi polloi.

No idea why people seem to be throwing themselves in front of Jim Mason's tank like it was Tiananmin Square. It's just an art proposal.
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Post by Bob A » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:28 am

dragonfly Jafe wrote:
Bob A wrote:Unlike what all the propaganda says the org is not going to stop you from putting art on the playa. If you pay for it through your own funding they are not going to stop you. They are not going to tell you it has to be themed art they are not going to place it all on the back fence line. They are going to let you put it pretty much where you want on the open playa as long as it does not interfere or bother other art. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't set up a whole zone for your art if asked.
But I bet if you just started setting up a piece on the open Playa, you would get a visit by someone "riding a golf cart" pretty darn quick. They might agree to allow you to continue, after an impromptu "Playa application/inspection", but I cannot believe that the BMorg would allow someone to set-up a piece on the open Playa without reviewing it (and possibly vetoing it if it is dangerous or too offensive). I may be splitting hairs here....
Well a few hairs, but that’s ok. I didn't mean commando art in the middle of the night, although a few of those did show up I understand. And also I read in one of ladybee’s posts that a bunch of art showed up without prior paperwork etc, and they did place it on the playa, they just asked them to check in at the artery so they would no where it was for cleanup plan etc.

That’s why I said in another section, they would let you do your art as long as safety, fire etc conditions where met. And you can also add to that, things that would piss leo off.

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Post by Bob A » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:45 am

Bob wrote:
Bob A wrote:What they won't do is give you a piece of their event.
Why not? They already give over a huge sector of the art space and a whole burn night to a gigantic pile of plywood invested with pseudo-religious overtones. They've done it before with Helco and the Opera and Plundertown. They've done a lot of things that don't exactly follow the rules you imagine them to follow themselves and impose on the hoi polloi.
Well compared to the whole space that is set aside for art on the open playa the man doesn't get that much. And I believe helco and opera where considered theme camps and art projects. And you are right they are willing to stretch the rules for projects and things if the people are motivated etc. But they won't create an autonomous zone for anybody.
Bob wrote:No idea why people seem to be throwing themselves in front of Jim Mason's tank like it was Tiananmin Square. It's just an art proposal.
I'm not throwing myself in front of any tank, those things hurt. I think it's a great idea and I'm behind it. That’s the point, it is just an art proposal and its not that far outside the realm of things that have been done before. We're just talking more funding and more groups brought together. I think it is brilliant, I just don't want to see it get shot down for petty ideological ideas or semantics like a semi autonomous zone. If they work within the framework I'm sure the org will stretch the frame enough to make it fit, as long as they don't start off with a deal breaker.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:49 am

Bob A wrote:If they work within the framework I'm sure the org will stretch the frame enough to make it fit, as long as they don't start off with a deal breaker.Bob A
Said far better than than my attempts to say it have been. Bravo!

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Post by Bob » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:27 am

Why are you so worried about a "work within the framework" thing? They routinely make tons of exceptions for all sorts of people and projects. There's never been a level playing field. Why fault Jim for stating what he wants outright instead of sneaking something in? Won't stop anybody else from trying to go by the (alleged) book.
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:55 am

Bob wrote:Why are you so worried about a "work within the framework" thing? They routinely make tons of exceptions for all sorts of people and projects. There's never been a level playing field. Why fault Jim for stating what he wants outright instead of sneaking something in? Won't stop anybody else from trying to go by the (alleged) book.
Because Jim apparently is wanting a "hands-off" approach by the BMorg, and not wanting to have to "talk to people in carts". Anything less, and perhaps a claim of "undo interference" or "censorship" will surface. I think what we are trying to say is that a totally hands-off approach is unlikely to be accepted. In the end, the BMorg2 Zone will have to work within the BMorg rules (bending them greatly, perhaps) if it is to succeed. There can be no such thing as a truly "autonomous art zone" within BRC.

I envision a few persons within the BMorg2 Zone acting as contact points to the BMorg (and BMorg2 Artists), doing the BMorg paperwork, answering BMorg questions (and those of BMorg2 Zone Artists), collecting the Bmorg2 Zone money, and then dispersing it. And lastly, ensuring that everything is cleaned up (somebody is going to have to put their name on the line to the BMorg for that...)

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Post by Bob A » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:10 am

Bob wrote:Why are you so worried about a "work within the framework" thing? They routinely make tons of exceptions for all sorts of people and projects. There's never been a level playing field. Why fault Jim for stating what he wants outright instead of sneaking something in? Won't stop anybody else from trying to go by the (alleged) book.
Yes exceptions are made all the time. And I'm sure a lot of exceptions would be made for this to work. That is what I meant by bending the framework. We're not talking about someone sneaking something in. We are talking about setting up a zone that is almost totally outside of the normal rules of the org. That's not bending the framework that's destroying it and burning the scraps. Not much left for give and take and discussion after that.

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Post by Bob A » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:11 am

dragonfly Jafe wrote:
Bob wrote:Why are you so worried about a "work within the framework" thing? They routinely make tons of exceptions for all sorts of people and projects. There's never been a level playing field. Why fault Jim for stating what he wants outright instead of sneaking something in? Won't stop anybody else from trying to go by the (alleged) book.
Because Jim apparently is wanting a "hands-off" approach by the BMorg, and not wanting to have to "talk to people in carts". Anything less, and perhaps a claim of "undo interference" or "censorship" will surface. I think what we are trying to say is that a totally hands-off approach is unlikely to be accepted. In the end, the BMorg2 Zone will have to work within the BMorg rules (bending them greatly, perhaps) if it is to succeed. There can be no such thing as a truly "autonomous art zone" within BRC.

I envision a few persons within the BMorg2 Zone acting as contact points to the BMorg (and BMorg2 Artists), doing the BMorg paperwork, answering BMorg questions (and those of BMorg2 Zone Artists), collecting the Bmorg2 Zone money, and then dispersing it. And lastly, ensuring that everything is cleaned up (somebody is going to have to put their name on the line to the BMorg for that...)

Exactly!


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Post by Bob » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:30 am

Why worry about the deails of borg2's internal or external consistency?

Take the Artery and Media Mecca and such. Center Camp used to be full of theme camps, with all the DIY self-reliance implied by that notion. Then they became Infrastructure.

OTOH, take Gigsville. They tried, begged, demanded, and pleaded for more self-reliance than the org would allow.

Take art cars -- they've certainly been a moving target the last eight years.

Bigger art projects with artists who find out how to work the system use hundreds of hours and dollars in DPW support, even if they don't take advantage of direct funding. That's just been accepted as the way things work out there. Nobody gives it much critical notice, in any case.
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Do I have to choose a side?

Post by GlowScreen » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:55 am

I've been closely following the whole petition/artists revolution discussion on various lists. The passion expressed is impressive.

I created an installation in my camp (Asylum) this past year. It was a backdrop made of glow paint. You poses in front of it, I flash a strong light, and your shadow is frozen on the screen.

I am dreaming of going bigger and better in 2005. So, now I'm faced with the question. Do I go for the support of the official Burning Man people or team up with the revolutionaries?

I'm really confused. Applying to both systems for funding is a daunting idea to wrap around my brain.

I guess I'm not asking for any answers. I just wanted to express to Jim Mason, Chicken John, Ladybee and everyone else that this has created quite a strange situation for artists. Do I have to choose a side?

I don't know what path I will take to get there, but I know I will be putting out art on the playa in 2005.

Peace,

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Re: cum

Post by Dr Feltersnatch » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:23 am

natthebat wrote: It's the friction that makes you cum.

Natalie
DAMN! Someone get this girl on the pun comedy circuit already wouldja?

U R killin me over here.
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Re: Do I have to choose a side?

Post by technopatra » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:11 pm

GlowScreen wrote: I guess I'm not asking for any answers. I just wanted to express to Jim Mason, Chicken John, Ladybee and everyone else that this has created quite a strange situation for artists. Do I have to choose a side?
Why is this strange for artists? To have two possible sources of funding is a wonderful thing.

And there is always the third and most popular option of financing it yourself, through your own fundraising efforts. Remember thAT throwing your own benefit events are a terrific way to get help on your projects, build stronger local community, and get folks aware of and culturally invested in your art. sure its more work than filling out a grant application, but its more satisfying too.

Keep in mind also that the Borg2 grant process is, as yet, undefined. There are no specific stated qualifications. In the 14 theses, a few statements seem to indicate that repeating artwork from previous years is not what they wish to fund, and that one of the bases for criteria will be te interactivity involved in the creation process, so your project may not even be eligible.

"Mix things up. Demand new forms, ideas and expressions. Poo poo the ones we have already done. Embrace the unknown."

"The "community forming" function of Burning Man art is in the broad gathering of people to make it, not in some form of simple interactivity via the pushing buttons, spinning of things, writing of graffiti, or being able to climb on the finished product."

I am still of the opinion that there are no sides, "art duel" or not. We are all at the same event, just camping in different locations. Doesn't matter how you get there, just get there with something to contribute.

btw - LOVED the GlowScreen! It reminded me of the one at the Exploratorium that we used to play in when I was a child. It creates instant and absolutely fleeting art.

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Re: Do I have to choose a side?

Post by GlowScreen » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:33 pm

You make a valid point that two possible funding sources is a good thing, but it appears that at some time I will be forced to choose to place myself and my work within the new community or within the old community. That is like being between a Black Rock and a hard place...

Thanks for bringing the fundraiser idea to my attention. The problem is that when Spring arrives it seems like every weekend is another fundraiser event for a camp or project and so the potential audience gets jaded. However, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't have one. I do want to build community involvement in my project.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:21 pm

Well, there certainly should be no issue with you adding your own money to either a BMorg or BMorg2 grant. I don't even see an obvious conflict between BMorg AND BMorg2 funding (although they might think otherwise).

Say that the BMorg agrees to provide an area for BMorg2. The BMorg2 is the "curator" (with final veto belonging to BMorg). One could conceivably apply to the BMorg for funding, with a stated request of being placed with the BMorg2. Then apply to the BMorg2 for inclusion & funding. Assuming that both BMorg and BMorg2 like your concept, and agree to fund it, and assuming you kicked in a little also, you could have 3 sources of funds.

Of course, the BMorg2 might take exception to having "tainted" BMorg money involved with "their" zone, especially given the nature of "The Bet". Or the BMorg may chose to devote their funds to non-BMorg2 art, respecting the BMorg2's wishes to try it alone. But I think it is at least possible to go both ways (Bi-Fundable so-to-speak).

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:00 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:...This can certainly be done, I just don't think it can be done without someone talking to "people in carts". And the "people in carts" having the ultimate veto power.
Thanks for clarifying that, I understand. I agree in part with what you are saying, and even though I dont see it as that strong of an issue I also dont think its important enough to disagree.

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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:16 pm

spectabillis wrote:
dragonfly Jafe wrote:...This can certainly be done, I just don't think it can be done without someone talking to "people in carts". And the "people in carts" having the ultimate veto power.
Thanks for clarifying that, I understand. I agree in part with what you are saying, and even though I dont see it as that strong of an issue I also dont think its important enough to disagree.
The "strongness" of this issue, IMHO, will depend on how "far" the BMorg2 art is from what the BMorg would otherwise fund. For instance, if the BMorg2 art is all super-cool. super-safe, non-offensive Playa-style art that everyone loves, there is not likely to be an issue.

However, as others have pointed out, this kind of art could also probably be set-up "guerilla style" without much comment from the BMorg (although I contend that they would at least casually check it out for safety,etc). But this is the "status quo" at BRC. The "norm".

It is the truly "autonomous" art, divergant from what the BMorg (or perhaps more importantly the LEO's) consider appropriate, that could cause problems.

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Post by jimmason » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:01 pm

i can't believe so many of you are so thrilled to discuss the intricasies of the bureacracy and interaction and rules and policy and other formalisms that will surely need to be worked out around/between borg1 and borg2, if larry accepts the bet.

but it is disturbing this is your first thought in reponse to a creative action or proposal. this is bad first reaction to a creative action or proposal. it is the best way to squash one. or make the creative entities simply leave of boredom and tedium.

be artists people, not bureaucrats and policy wonks. really . . .

no wonder burning man has become so tedious . . .

j

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:16 pm

jimmason wrote: but it is disturbing this is your first thought in reponse to a creative action or proposal. this is bad first reaction to a creative action or proposal. it is the best way to squash one. or make the creative entities simply leave of boredom and tedium.
What made you come to the mis-conclusion this was my first thought and reaction?

I understand your concern, really I do, it's no secret that rules and regulations can run counter to being creative. But for future concern you might want to think how better to phrase this if you want the help and cooperation of others. This is just a suggestion, but as an example letting others help work out these details while yourself and other related artists concentrate more effort on the art would be a good thing. There is room for everyone here if you can learn how to use the best of what people have to offer.

I sincerely wish you the best with this.

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Post by Bob A » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:31 pm

jimmason wrote:i can't believe so many of you are so thrilled to discuss the intricasies of the bureacracy and interaction and rules and policy and other formalisms that will surely need to be worked out around/between borg1 and borg2, if larry accepts the bet.

but it is disturbing this is your first thought in reponse to a creative action or proposal. this is bad first reaction to a creative action or proposal. it is the best way to squash one. or make the creative entities simply leave of boredom and tedium.

be artists people, not bureaucrats and policy wonks. really . . .

no wonder burning man has become so tedious . . .

j
Well ok now that scares me. Remember before I said I'd be willing to donate if this happens. Well if you don't have the administration / business sense to understand why these are important issues then how are you going to manage a $250,000 budget and organize a fare voting process and all the other "tedious details" of your grand plan. If your not even willing to wonder how it is from the orgs side, then there is no way you are going to pull this off or get them to agree.

Oh and by the way my first thought wasn't admin, it was this could be really cool and really increase the art energy out there. My second thought was if there is any chance of this happening they have to approach this realistic so I can see it happen.

Oh and if the creative entities are going to get bored and leave of tedium that easily that also scares me. Again you will be handling $250,000 of others people money. Doing accounting, deciding who gets how much who doesn't get any, and does this guy Get $40,000 or do 40 get $1,000. If your going to get more that a few thousand token dollars you will have to answer and account for all this stuff and you will have to deal with a lot of tedium, just like the org does, hmm.

I don't know if it was in ladybirds reply or Larry's or somewhere else in these threads but someone mentioned how a lot of great artists are poor because they are not good at business and I guess the reverse might be said also. So you better have good business people or be one yourself if you want $250,000 dollars.

You also better start a formal approach with the org soon, not just this web and eplaya crap. Tickets go on sale Jan 5th. If you want any kind of endorsement or JRS space to raise money you will need to convince them your for real, fraud and miss management will also be on peoples minds before they donate large amounts. Email or call the right people at the org now, time is short. They won't handle any formal planing with you in this forum. And if you don't realize time is short and that it is time to take this behind closed doors, that also scares me.

Bob A

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Post by natthebat » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:22 am

Oh, Bob A. Don't think I didn't read your post. I just wanted to say cum and I didn't have a lot of time to address specific points on what I thought specifically. However, I must admit that I find your concern for detail tedious and boring. It's not my creative cup-o-tea.

I have full faith in Jim Mason's ability to handel money. He runs a business already. The details won't go ignored. They will be addressed accurately and quickly, not with beuracracy.

Your contribution is of value to the brain stormimg/ problem solving process. Have you gone the the Borg2 web site yet? They welcome your constructive, action oriented, fact based, willingness to participate. I'm sure you could find a way to help the cause. If you want to.

Enjoy the friction!
Love Nat
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Post by Chicken John » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:38 am

At some point somebody has to be trusted. I have been in buisness for 2o years and I currently employ 11 people, own proerty and do everyone I knows taxes. Jim just got a million dollar grant to archive languages. His language archive tool is now in outer space. www.rosetta.org

At last I checked we already have $12,000, I think.

I think we are going to be just fine. We have a great group of people and a ton of resources. The biggest problem for us is that me and Jim can't stand each other. He owes me an apology. Fucker.

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Post by Chicken John » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:48 am

"I guess I'm not asking for any answers. I just wanted to express to Jim Mason, Chicken John, Ladybee and everyone else that this has created quite a strange situation for artists. Do I have to choose a side?"

Don't be stupid, apply for as many grants in as many places as you can and put your thing wherever you want to and/or move it twice a day!!!! Build 2! Get a grant for something and build something else! Suprise somebody.... freak out.... play requetball in an evening gown... take a blind guy to a movie... learn to play the ukelale.... collect stamps.... I'm glad your not asking for answers.... I'm losing it.

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Post by III » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:48 am

i've never met jim or chicken (actually, i've bumped into jim on a couple of occasions, the first being when he was soliciting help from passersby to lay out rocks in a clock pattern around the temporal decomposition, and my fiancee slept in chicken john's bed and was woken up by phat mandee giving head to her partner, so i feel like i've got some connection).

i'd like to thank them, however, for putting some fun back into this whole thing. i haven't signed their petition (because i think less, rather than more, is better), but boy have they put a smile on my face.

their effort actually is making me consider attending the event - i'd love to see an autonomous zone. i'd love it even more if it ended up as a big screaming fireball of chaos and "failure", but that's just me...
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Post by buckethead alien » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:37 am

Jim and Chicken’s discussion of a borg2 (although when I last checked, their Web site was down) really points to the fundamental issue facing Burning Man. No, it’s not art or the lack thereof. It’s size--as many people have pointed out here and elsewhere well before me. But the borg part-deaux concept of a city within a city, has extraordinary merit if you put aside the showmanship and silliness of “the bet.” But I am all for an autonomous zone. (Wow, III! Good to see you.)

At 35,000+ people Burning Man’s population has outgrown its ability to function as a satisfying cultural setting. Here I need to stop and give credit to “The Pattern Language” by Christopher Alexander, et. al. [Memo to Larry: You need to pull your copy down off the shelf and re-read it. Now.] In the authors’ ideal expression of the city, subculture boundaries are essential. Burning Man would fit their definition of a “heterogeneous” city, which “seems rich,” but actually “dampens all significant variety.”

More preferable, is a “mosaic of subcultures,” each with readily identifiable boundaries—this is what the Burning Man villages would be if they were not gobbled up in the chaos of the BRC streets. In the early days, before the officially approved grid, Burning Man camps tended toward this more organic form, I am told; the grid was in place when I first rolled in in 1997.
  • <I>The Mosaic of Subcultures
    In a city made of large number of subcultures relatively small in size, each occupying an identifiable place and separated from other subcultures by a boundary of nonresidential land, new ways of life can develop. People can choose the kind of sub-culture they wish to live in, and can experience many ways of life different from their own. Since each environment fosters mutual support and a strong sense of shared values, individuals can grow.</I>
Importantly, the authors identify a population of 7,000 as the <u>maximum</u> size of a residential subculture. While this figure is described in terms of local governance, they point out that Sophocles wrote that life would be unbearable were it not for the freedom to initiate action in a small community.

Preserving the “magic of the city” is a monumental task, and it takes more than assuring the continued placement of mind-blowing art. Urban sprawl takes away the joy of a city except for those lucky enough to live close to the cultural centers, read, center camp, the esplanade, some of the keyhole villages. The problem “can only be solved by decentralizing the core to form a multitude of smaller cores, each devoted to some special way of life, so that, even though decentralized, each one is still intense and still a center for the region as a whole.”

Possible implications:
Some of the existing villages become the core of new residential subcultures; newcomers--and veterans who may want to camp somewhere new--are able to find space around the several cores, unlike what happens in the current model where late-week arrivals end up farther and farther out in the undifferentiated suburbs.

Space for art and common land are laid out as “fingers” between different parts of Black Rock City.

As Chicken put it in another context, reinvigorating Black City by adjusting its settlement patterns would help put more woo-hoo in its hoo-hah. Art cannot do it alone.

In good faith,

BHA

please don't flame me, I am trying to help

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Post by buckethead alien » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:53 am

One thing I noticed re-reading my post is that it might suggest that I advocate abandoning the street grid. This is not the case; I think that the grid obviously must be preserved for emergency access and so on. However, the grid could be adapted into a more progressive urban plan.

Anyone who wants a fax of excerpts of the Pattern Language is welcome to PM or e-mail me. The chapters are very concise and targetted to specific planning and architectural concepts, many of which would have bearing on the development of the BRC villages and large theme camps.

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Post by III » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:09 am

a pattern language is a great book, but be careful in applying it too directly to the festival. it is aimed at creating a healthy year round living environment, and incorporating every requirement of daily life into that environment.

burning man, on the other hand, is all setting yourself up for a week of different living: you shop (a lot) so that you can be commerce free, you drive (really far) so that you can not use your car, and so on. this is a good thing, but the patterns won't necessarily translate.

that being said, i think there are some good things to be learned in how an environment can affect the development in a community, and how some things you intend to work one way can have the complete opposite affect.
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Post by III » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:13 am

btw, the text of apl is available online. the pictures and layout of the book are an important element of the presentation (much as with the edward tufte books) so i'd still suggest reading it in hardcopy whenever possible.
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Post by III » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:23 am

for example: this is a great pattern, but it's based on the idea that all the people in the community are in constant contact with each other on a year round basis. for a week in the desert thing, a more reasonable number might be on the order of 500-1000, since you have to actually develop all those relationships, rather than just maintain them (which takes a lot less effort).
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