case studies

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:38 pm

Oops, sorry, Tancorix, I meant to post my reply here, too.

I checked out the post, which invited folks to seminars to unluck their finanical potential etc etc. While it ceratinly smacked of some kind of pyramid scheme, no references to commerces were made in either the post or the URL it linked to. It offered its amazing results and "shocking" special gift for free.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:50 pm

reposted from that thread:

[quote=Tancorix]
There are some things that the community rejects even though it's not in the CG's or TOS. While gifts are always welcome many of us have been burned by schemes masquerading in packages similar to the one described above. We can't ban it outright, TP has already decided that.
[/quote]

No I didn't. I just said it didn't technically violate the rules we currently have. I think this would be a fine issue for discussion on the Case Studies thread if you wish to pursue it.

Tancorix, Badger, all -

Remember, the Community Guidelines are made by & for the community. The admins & I only help enforce them for you. You can change them if you want to, we just need to figure out a fair method for doing so - like a vote. I do reserve the right for the admins to create the poll, as I think we can do it fairly while those with an interest may not.

You come up with new wording for the old rule, or a whole new guideline, state why you think it's important, get folks discussing it, and then we can have a vote. 'kay?[/quote]

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:17 pm

Fair enough. Thanks.

emily sparkle · Post by **emily sparkle** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:55 pm

DVD Burner's accounts (including Lilly Flower) have been suspended for one month as a result of a threat he made against another eplaya member.

7. Content Posted on the Site.

The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited on the Eplaya. Burning Man reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action in its sole discretion against anyone who violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending post from the Service and terminating the membership of such violators, in connection with all available civil, criminal, and injunctive remedies. You agree not to use the Service to:
...

upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that information that you know is false, misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory, tortious or libelous;

Threatening violence against another user is a very serious offense and will not be tolerated.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:12 pm

FYI - DVD has protested this action, claiming that Badger has written much worse and also broken the rules. He has accused us of applying the rules only to him, and not equally.

I responded that the admin have to respond to formal complaints, and that he pushed Badger far enough to make one.

I also reminded him that he could have filed a formal complaint at any time, and still can. His and Badger's interactions are so frequent and ferocious that we assumed they were both willing participants. The mutual-flaming escalated to a point where Badger was uncomfortable, so he made a complaint. If Tony wishes to file a complaint against Badger, he need only do so.

This is a tough subject - we have 2 folks who willingingly engage, for over ayear, in some nasty knock-down drag-out insult fests. They permeate many a thread.

Were we to proactively enforce the guidelines in this case, they both would've been banned long ago. But they are both considered vital members of this community. What do we do?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I, too, am a little frustrated byt he vagueries of the enforcement, but responding to complaints is the best we've been able to come up wth so far. I think folks should, to some extent, be able to flame each other if htey want to . I don't like being content cop and I don't think Emily does, either.

How do we handle folks who just can't get along? Do we even try? Would a better rsponse to Badger's complaint been "you made that bed, now lie in it?" I don't think so.

(btw - we have, I think, 2 guys who might be helping with phpbb, so the "ignore user" feature may not be far off).

Please let us know what you think.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:34 pm

hooray for ignore user!!

i think the 'explicit threats' line is a good one to draw...
he threatened me, too, but i felt it didn't go far enough to warrant reporting him... yet.

i can't wait for ignore user.

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:34 pm

Can you tell us where this happened?

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:00 pm

It happened in a PM, which Badger forwarded to the admins.

Tony did not deny it. We have since correspnded some more and he is being very cooperative and gracious about accepting the penalty.

No counter-complaint so far.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:00 pm

it was in a pm war yesterday.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:10 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:it was in a pm war yesterday.

urg. sorry, sparkle, i thought you were talking to me.

emily sparkle · Post by **emily sparkle** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:29 pm

I don't like being content cop and I don't think Emily does, either.

yeah, i pretty much don't want COP associated with my name about anything.

Sandwichman · Post by **Sandwichman** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:29 pm

I am on several message boards where threats get tossed around like a misused hackey sack. The general rule of thumb is that once someone feels uncomfortable enough to report something the poster has crossed the line. Even though temptation is to leave these two to their devices if one of them feels uncomfortable I believe the correct actions were taken. Just from seeing Badger's postings here I would believe he can handle his own and if he feels uncomfortable that really says something to me at least about the nature of the threats written or imposed. Just my two bits.

Jason

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:14 pm

I was CC'd on this.
30 days suspension seems a bit harsh.
What happens in a PM is different than being broadcast in the main channel. This sounds like a personal spat that's run amuk and one party is trying to implement a parliamentarian style maneuver to gain advantage for slights both perceived and others long ago forgotten about by the other party. The admin it appears (but I could be way wrong, I haven't seen the message or have a context to base it on, just a hunch) is being exploited in this situation under the shield of enforcing the "rules" when in the past those same "rules" have been ignored when it was in the best interests to do so......

The rules suck. But at the time they were created it was the best compromise that all involved could come up with. Could they be better? You betcha. But it takes PARTICIPATION.....

Damn, this sucks. I love Badger and while we've fought in the past, he's been very inspirational as I've made some changes this past year. I grumble about some things he does but I love the man and that's that. I also like DVD who I can relate to, I feel he's brought a few things on himself but he's also had to endure some stuff that shouldn't have came down on him like it has. He's been burned here too.

Damn. Damn. Damn. Did he get a warning first? Everyone deserves a shot at reforming their behavior. Was this threat so serious that it warranted the punishment handed out? Only the two warring parties and the admin know for sure. My take on it is give everyone a warning, then enforce the rules fairly for all for conduct on public display. As for private messages, couldn't this have been handled a little more discreetly? Do the same standards apply? I'm not so sure but I am only one voice. This is America, Diebold hasn't rigged every vote, let the eplayans decide and weigh in on this.

And with that, I'm back to my recovery efforts. I'm very, very sick right now. If anyone has a few kind thoughts or good karma they could pass my way, the need is there. Thanks for reading my post.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:21 pm

i'm not sure how good of a gaugue 'feeling threatened' is.

the message DVD sent to me set off some alarm bells. but it certainly didn't scare me enough to worry. but then, i'm really sensitive - and really kind of a hard ass - about violence and threats.

i'm sure if i read it over again now i'd blow it off as nothing. i'm really cursing myself for erasing it, but at the time i thought it better just to forget about the whole thing.

there's pretty clear language for explicit threats. and it's usually clear enough when there's a history of good natured joking behind it - or not.

i have to restrain myself sometimes from saying something i don't really mean. but then again, sometimes self restraint is good for all of us.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:47 pm

not that i shouldn't be banned too, but . . .

after i publically called out dvd burners long running tirade of content free posts offering little but painful emotocon humor, we had a nice pm exchange ending with a beautiful dvd artwork inviting me to "suck the shit out of my(his) ass". it was really actually a well done piece of graphic work, and done on the fly in about 10 minutes. i was impressed really. and oh yeah, there were also then threats to destroy my reputation publicly, to which i responded that i was doing a fine job of that myself and didn't need any assistance in that matter, thank you. lots of other pm nastiness, but little more than just the typical stupidity that can breed in anonymous exchanges when people are hidden behind non real names. i asked dvd his real name and he woudn't tell me. i offered my phone number so we could scream at each more effectively in real time. what finally diffused it was agreeing to look at his portfolio of artwork and take him seriously as an artist, with i already had with the "shit sucking" work he had offered and i found to be with merit . . .

i really don't know how all of you run this forum. i clearly am not a longtime member here. but i do know that hte proliferation of rules and tending tends to drive people away cause then they don't feel like they own it. (yes, this is theme of mine at this point) people run away to the free for all of tribe or the like. tolerating the presence of content free posters or impossibly tedious posters and not calling htem out as such, clearly, also let's frustrations boil to a point that i imagine people eventually do bolt.

but again, eplaya is not something i claim to understand well. i am only a guest here, and an admittely problematic guest. so take the above for however it best helps the home of yous.

jim

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:50 pm

technopatra wrote: Please let us know what you think.

Considering your patience, especially in the past with Black Rock Ric, I dont think too many people would take exception to your ban policy.

I think it's a valid decision, but that's just what I think.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:27 pm

ePlaya Forum Index -> Black Rock City -> Questions and Advice -> Anyone have experience with electric scooter a la playa?
(April 2004)

Among other things, he said

Bob A,
Bravo.
I'll wait and aquire from the experienced.

then I said

Roger that, Pee-Wee.

then he said

Uh.....who's Pee wee?

then I said

The one between your keyboard and your chair, fuckwit.
Care to reserve your non-scooter-related posts for General Discussion?

then he said

Ah, hey. It's Bob time.
Wanna see my PP.
You sure you can handle it.

and then

2 birds, one stone.

and then

I bet he and his followers are sitting at their Mac's with steam comming out the ears wondering what they want to do next.

hey, You can always come down outta the Excelsior on your little scooter and meet me somewhere to let me know what's on your mind.

was that in thread theme?

Not that I have anything against Macs. A computers a computers a computer to me.

Smilie time.

and then

Well, a half an hour has gone by and no answer.

Hummmmm.

and then

None of club five is impressing me.

What am I to do?

then Isotopia came on and said

Go away? Forever?

and he responded

That is your wish huh?

sometimes wishes dont come true.

sometimes they are nightmares.

I am your biggest nightmare.

whereupon Isotopia replied

You flatter yourself.

and he said

Nope,

I flatter you. That's why you keep responding and everyone keeps watching.

You're not smart enough.

Too bad.....you could have a really great time with me and the other most coolest burners here in the city. But you insist on being an ass hole. So............ so be it.

I like ass holes, because I can make them my punching bag.

and I came back with

I could have taken this as a threat, since he named my neighborhood and seemed to be calling me or the whole "club five" (whomever that is) out behind the bar, but it wasn't followed up by anything more, so I let it pass. No harm, no foul. Can't speak for Isotopia or Badger.

Given all the past and potential "me too" and "sez you" pissy talk on the BBS, I think <plonk> would only add to the faint urine smell. Only frequent (urinal)users will go to the trouble of trying to benefit from it.

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:52 am

regarding DVD's suspension...

two rules apply here...

#1. think before you type

#2 think twice before you press the <Enter> key

in the default world those rules would mean...

#1 think before you speak

#2 think twice before you speak again

or

"better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:32 am

This reminds me of a 2nd grade playground spat.

Let me offer a link that might explain things a bit.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 4&start=15

As I've stated before and everyone knows the single smilie posts drive many of us up the wall. But to his credit DVD tries to add value to certain discussions. It's frustrating though to have your ideas shot down.....because of frustration with the other posts.

I dislike using the "Can't we all get along" idea, but damn, this is silly. For 2 years everyone's had to put up with this. The Gang of Five, the smilies, the sniping. It gets old. So now...I have a question. Badger, DVD, and anyone else in the gang of five...what can be done to end this? If DVD stopped the smilie posts, would that change your approach to him? Or if we flip that DVD, what does the gang of five need to do to satisfy you and allow you to consider this over with?

We're only a few days from a new year. The new BM theme is out. Tickets go on sale in a few weeks. It's a great time to start anew. The eplaya will have newbies galore piling in here...do they really need to see a 2 year old spat? I say no. I had many of the same issues with Badger and Lydia for example. I found a way to make peace with both of them, to bury the hatchet and not in each other's backs. So I'll start by asking....can all of you find a way to end this for the good of everyone else on the board? Anyone else who wants to weigh in should feel free to do so, but on this topic I've been there, fixed that. Others can too. Who will be first to step up?

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:18 pm

i'm not a list cop, but i play one online.

this is probably not the thread to try to mediate a (most likely doomed to failure) dispute. the purpose of this thread is to discuss administrative actions, or lack thereof, and potential alternatives as a method of preventing future maladroitisms. keeping to that topic simplifies the job of the harried admins.

thank you for your consideration.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:22 pm

Per Post #1 of this very thread:

Case Studies: for the discussion of potential (or eventually actual) application of the community guidelines.

my plan for this is to try to present an unbiased view of a particular situation, and the follow it up with my personal opinion of how it might have been handled. i hope that y'all feel free to present your own options for handling those situations, and present your own situations as well.

I am offering suggestions on how to handle this, therefore I do not feel my post is out of line based on the criteria listed above.

As for the CG's an increased emphasis on conflict resolution and civility appears to be needed. If I did stray in someone's perception, my intent is pure. I love the eplaya and hate seeing this sort of conflict..it breeds other conflict and hostility that needs to be discouraged. I realize this will never be a Rainbow gathering with peace and love for all, but dang, 2 years worth of conflict? And as for being a lost cause? Ha! I'll bet that nobody needs to invoke St. Jude Thaddeus, the patron saint of lost causes just yet.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:53 am

the community guidelines are for those who will be inclined not to follow them

Simply Joel · Post by **Simply Joel** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:59 am

stuart wrote:the community guidelines are for those who will be inclined not to follow them

self discipline or the lack thereof.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:35 am

does "darryl van rhey" count as impersonating an llc member? or would that llc member have first publicly out themselves as dvr before it could be called impersonation?

(since i'm pretty sure the post by dvr in the nature of burning man thread isn't by the person who normally uses that psued. speaking of which, there seems to be ample precedent for socks within the non-eplaya world, no?)

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:12 am

Hmm. good question. Larry doesn't really use nom de plumes anymore, ASFAIK. Let's abstract that out one level:

It is a violation of the impersonation terms to use, as your nom de plume, a non de plume that someone else has used in real life?

I have to admit I am stumped. What does everyone think?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:24 am

If it is a well known nom de plume I would say that it is intended to possibly cause confusion. On the other hand, the content of that particular posting would have cleared that confusion up. Future postings under that ID may not be quite as obvious, though.

I would say that well known nom de plumes be reserved and not allowed for use by the general community as to avoid any possible confusion in the future.

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:25 am

Well..if I look at the Suzie Clipboard thing, he got tossed for impersonating an admin. This character is impersonating a member of the ORG...which if I remember was a cause listed for tossing WSPR....

I'd toss him if it was me but I expect a horde of defenders to post saying that's wrong and you can't do that. But you asked for thoughts...you got one. The rules are kinda fuzzy on this. Besides opinions on this, does the situation warrant a proposed CG change?

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:47 pm

>impersonating a member of the ORG

kinda - he's impersonating a character which is explicitly not a member of the llc which is used by a member of the llc when he wants to not appear on it.

i don't think he's ever hidden who he is, but i don't think it's been publicised either.

my take is that i'd let it slide, and hang him on some other violation if it crops up. that particular post was petulant, but i didn't see any unwarranted personal attacks...

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:59 pm

I would argue that there are no warranted personal attacks, but that's not the point. The admins have a mandate, as it were, not to take action against attacks on Larry - he is too public a figure, and he doesn't really care, anyway.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:27 pm

technopatra wrote:...It is a violation of the impersonation terms to use, as your nom de plume, a non de plume that someone else has used in real life?...

So you'd be blissfully woo-woo if someone logged on as "tèchnopaträ"?

case studies

violation of terms of service : temporary account suspension

Escalating Flamers

not that i shouldn't be banned too, but . . .

Re: Escalating Flamers