Announcing: The BORG2 . . . and the bet . . .

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:42 am

I agree with you III that much of the Pattern Language is written about issues of the permanent environment. Nonetheless, many of the patterns identified in it like the eccentric nucleus do speak to immediate experience and in my opinion would help Black Rock City be more viscerally satisfying to its inhabitants, however short-lived their residence.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:15 am

and i'm inclined to agree with you that there is a lot to be learned.

one of the things you'll run up against, though, is that black rock city is intended to be more than just a community. it is intentionally designed to be more of a cathedral - the symmetry, spires and open space behind the man are intended to induce a sense of awe. breaking up the city into several autonomous chunks would be good for human interaction, but would violate that sense of spectacle, and is unlikely to happen soon.

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:53 am

Indeed, III, looking at the sketches in my copy of APL, it looks like the eccentic nuclei are only separated from the main city by narrow subculture boundaries. A similar feature in architecture might be the various chapels and niches within a cathedral that open onto the main floor but have a degree of self-identity while at the same time amplifying the impact of the whole.

Frankly, the LSSA/rave areas and keyhole villages already are a movement in this direction. Giving them and others better definition might help diminish the Thursday-Friday-Saturday effect when the city suddenly gets too big by allowing for expansion while maintaining an identity, however esoteric or fanciful.

The only part of BRC that functions at all like this are the streets around Center Camp. The keyholes never seemed to work right as community centers, but as the city grows--how many people are expected in 2005?--some form of progressive layout will be necessary.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:16 am

problem is that those nooks and crannies in a cathedral are incidental to the main gathering space, while at burning man they would be the gathering space. a reversal of priorities, if you would. or, to put it another way, a cathedral is good for watching an event. it's not so good for living in.

as i reread through apl, i realize that a lot of what alexander proposes to minimize traffic and promote pedestrianism is an anathema to quick emergency response. and that quick emergency response is behind a lot of the contercommunity issues i have with the city layout. is there a potential resolution?

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:19 am

Are you forgetting where you put your "Rectory"?

It's not as simple as a place-of-worship analogy might imply. The Esplanade and the "playa space" were designed mostly as a physical analog of a beach, bay or ocean, and beachfront boardwalk. Nothing should prevent grafting more articulated complex subpatterns onto this than the designers' imaginations.

The Man... Christ figure... lighthouse... whatever... I'm so disengaged from it at this point it's more like a plastic centerpiece figure in the middle of a cake.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:25 am

>It's not as simple as a place-of-worship analogy

you should work spire crew sometime when they put in the promenade. probably won't change your mind, since you're a wonderfully stubborn coot, but i found it to be a surprisingly eye opening experience.

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:40 am

Bob wrote: . . . The Esplanade and the "playa space" were designed mostly as a physical analog of a beach, bay or ocean, and beachfront boardwalk. Nothing should prevent grafting more articulated complex subpatterns onto this than the designers' imaginations. . . .

Yes. Yes. Yes. Very well put, Bob.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:08 am

At 35,000+ people Burning Man’s population has outgrown its ability to function as a satisfying cultural setting.

Yeee-ha!

Glad to see you toss this out Buckethead. I think you're pretty spot on with the assessment. Further, its great that you put your observations out there with a suggestion - a positive suggestion - that there are possible alternatives to consider. I know that this has been brought up recently in a few other discussions taking place off of the board here. Some of the discussions seems to naturally gravitate toward the idea that 'neighborhoods' are possibly the best way to reintegrate the idea of community and culture (nebulous terms at best) within the framework of both a living and social situation which has perhaps grown too large.

Seriously glad you popped the top on this idea. Trey's suggestions are certainly worth considering and he brings a lot to the table with his experiences I think.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:18 am

> 'neighborhoods' are possibly the best way to reintegrate the idea of community and culture

that was the original idea behind villages. at least, that's what i got from frog. i'm prone to misunderstanding him sometimes, though.

however, there's never been the level of empowerment for those autonomous groups to really let it go anywhere. at this point, villages are simply treated as oversized themecamps, with all the small scale expectations.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:30 am

I have yet to see citable evidence that any number pulled out of a hat is worse or more unmanageable than another for Burning Man, but don't let that stop you from wanking off on folklore or personal preferences.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:42 am

Bob wrote:any number pulled out of a hat

there's no good numbers, but there are decent sounding theories about lines of communication being a requirement for communities. which has gotten me to start some wanking about the differing perceptions of the event, as well as the resistance to some of the proposed changes. thanks, bob...

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:05 pm

bob a said

"Well ok now that scares me. Remember before I said I'd be willing to donate if this happens. Well if you don't have the administration / business sense to understand why these are important issues then how are you going to manage a $250,000 budget and organize a fare voting process and all the other "tedious details" of your grand plan. If your not even willing to wonder how it is from the orgs side, then there is no way you are going to pull this off or get them to agree. "

bob a, in one of my two day jobs, i am the director of a project with a yearly budget of a half million dollars (www.rosettaproject.org). i also run an artspace with a 100,000 dollar yearly budget and constant resistance from the city of berkeley (www.theshipyard.org). i built both of these "businesses" myself, from scratch. i am not a starving artist. i am not a business idiot.

i like to make things happen in the world. and i do it by not having my first rection to any new idea being an immediate nose dive into the most tedious of details about the proposed. we will get to those soon enough. and yes, we must get to those. we always do in the end.

but first, larry has to take the bet. if the borg won't play ball with ideas so many people clearly want to play with, we are all simply going to be done with this tedious show and take our marbles elsewhere.

we have no interest in continuing to contribute our creativity to a futile cause.

j

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:16 pm

buckethead alien wrote: At 35,000+ people Burning Man’s population has outgrown its ability to function as a satisfying cultural setting. Here I need to stop and give credit to “The Pattern Language” by Christopher Alexander, et. al. [Memo to Larry: You need to pull your copy down off the shelf and re-read it. Now.] In the authors’ ideal expression of the city, subculture boundaries are essential. Burning Man would fit their definition of a “heterogeneous” city, which “seems rich,” but actually “dampens all significant variety.”

More preferable, is a “mosaic of subcultures,” each with readily identifiable boundaries—this is what the Burning Man villages would be if they were not gobbled up in the chaos of the BRC streets. In the early days, before the officially approved grid, Burning Man camps tended toward this more organic form, I am told; the grid was in place when I first rolled in in 1997.

The Mosaic of Subcultures
In a city made of large number of subcultures relatively small in size, each occupying an identifiable place and separated from other subcultures by a boundary of nonresidential land, new ways of life can develop. People can choose the kind of sub-culture they wish to live in, and can experience many ways of life different from their own. Since each environment fosters mutual support and a strong sense of shared values, individuals can grow.
Importantly, the authors identify a population of 7,000 as the maximum size of a residential subculture. While this figure is described in terms of local governance, they point out that Sophocles wrote that life would be unbearable were it not for the freedom to initiate action in a small community.

Preserving the “magic of the city” is a monumental task, and it takes more than assuring the continued placement of mind-blowing art. Urban sprawl takes away the joy of a city except for those lucky enough to live close to the cultural centers, read, center camp, the esplanade, some of the keyhole villages. The problem “can only be solved by decentralizing the core to form a multitude of smaller cores, each devoted to some special way of life, so that, even though decentralized, each one is still intense and still a center for the region as a whole.”

Possible implications:
Some of the existing villages become the core of new residential subcultures; newcomers--and veterans who may want to camp somewhere new--are able to find space around the several cores, unlike what happens in the current model where late-week arrivals end up farther and farther out in the undifferentiated suburbs.

Space for art and common land are laid out as “fingers” between different parts of Black Rock City.

As Chicken put it in another context, reinvigorating Black City by adjusting its settlement patterns would help put more woo-hoo in its hoo-hah. Art cannot do it alone.

In good faith,

BHA

please don't flame me, I am trying to help

this is probably the smartset thing i have seen posted here in eplaya in three weeks. i don't know if it is right, but it is really really interesting. yes, we cannot maintain civic intimacy past some population number. and we are clarely past that. but we can do a better job of encouraging compelling sub entities, and giving them real space within the larger whole. the village concept is about this. but for it to really work will require more thougthfully integrating the village concept into the design of the city.

right now our city layout assumes one city. and as that city is too big to be intimate, the current design is encouraging anonymity. we need to consider ways to change the design so the physical layout encourages discrete subcultures within the larger whole.

thank you for this thought mr. alien. larry? you listening to this? this seems important to me. someone(s) should run with this a bit and see what the possibilities are.

j

MoisturePup · Post by **MoisturePup** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:07 pm

buckethead alien wrote:Jim and Chicken’s discussion of a borg2 (although when I last checked, their Web site was down) really points to the fundamental issue facing Burning Man. No, it’s not art or the lack thereof. It’s size--as many people have pointed out here and elsewhere well before me. But the borg part-deaux concept of a city within a city, has extraordinary merit if you put aside the showmanship and silliness of “the bet.” But I am all for an autonomous zone. (Wow, III! Good to see you.)

At 35,000+ people Burning Man’s population has outgrown its ability to function as a satisfying cultural setting. Here I need to stop and give credit to “The Pattern Language” by Christopher Alexander, et. al. [Memo to Larry: You need to pull your copy down off the shelf and re-read it. Now.] In the authors’ ideal expression of the city, subculture boundaries are essential. Burning Man would fit their definition of a “heterogeneous” city, which “seems rich,” but actually “dampens all significant variety.”

More preferable, is a “mosaic of subcultures,” each with readily identifiable boundaries—this is what the Burning Man villages would be if they were not gobbled up in the chaos of the BRC streets. In the early days, before the officially approved grid, Burning Man camps tended toward this more organic form, I am told; the grid was in place when I first rolled in in 1997.

The Mosaic of Subcultures
In a city made of large number of subcultures relatively small in size, each occupying an identifiable place and separated from other subcultures by a boundary of nonresidential land, new ways of life can develop. People can choose the kind of sub-culture they wish to live in, and can experience many ways of life different from their own. Since each environment fosters mutual support and a strong sense of shared values, individuals can grow.
Importantly, the authors identify a population of 7,000 as the maximum size of a residential subculture. While this figure is described in terms of local governance, they point out that Sophocles wrote that life would be unbearable were it not for the freedom to initiate action in a small community.

Preserving the “magic of the city” is a monumental task, and it takes more than assuring the continued placement of mind-blowing art. Urban sprawl takes away the joy of a city except for those lucky enough to live close to the cultural centers, read, center camp, the esplanade, some of the keyhole villages. The problem “can only be solved by decentralizing the core to form a multitude of smaller cores, each devoted to some special way of life, so that, even though decentralized, each one is still intense and still a center for the region as a whole.”

Possible implications:
Some of the existing villages become the core of new residential subcultures; newcomers--and veterans who may want to camp somewhere new--are able to find space around the several cores, unlike what happens in the current model where late-week arrivals end up farther and farther out in the undifferentiated suburbs.

Space for art and common land are laid out as “fingers” between different parts of Black Rock City.

As Chicken put it in another context, reinvigorating Black City by adjusting its settlement patterns would help put more woo-hoo in its hoo-hah. Art cannot do it alone.

In good faith,

BHA

please don't flame me, I am trying to help

Wow, That really was a wonderfully written piece. It makes sense.

But wouldn't you say that Villages are a version of "residential" communities? I was staying in Avalon village which is a conglomeration of gay themed camps. I would say I felt very close to the people within my village, and really identified with them. Although, I must admit, I never went farther out than Jupiter in the city.

How do you feel that the main point of your post contrasts when you compare the fact that you're using data for a 365 day a year city, versus the temporary one week city that we have. Is it really possible to hold the same levels of community bonding over the course of a week that you would get in a city core? Or are you attempting to build a sort of Paris with it's many districts with specific purposes for each district?

MoisturePup · Post by **MoisturePup** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:16 pm

MoisturePup wrote:
Wow, That really was a wonderfully written piece. It makes sense.

But wouldn't you say that Villages are a version of "residential" communities? I was staying in Avalon village which is a conglomeration of gay themed camps. I would say I felt very close to the people within my village, and really identified with them. Although, I must admit, I never went farther out than Jupiter in the city.

How do you feel that the main point of your post contrasts when you compare the fact that you're using data for a 365 day a year city, versus the temporary one week city that we have. Is it really possible to hold the same levels of community bonding over the course of a week that you would get in a city core? Or are you attempting to build a sort of Paris with it's many districts with specific purposes for each district?

One more thing, in Paris the districts represent a certain level of permanence. One of the main issues right now within the malcontents of Burning Man is that it has become frozen in the wrong ways, unmovable. If we introduce the concept of districts, than we may be introducing a new level of permanence that will be unwanted in years to come.

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:32 pm

jimmason wrote:bob a said

"Well ok now that scares me. Remember before I said I'd be willing to donate if this happens. Well if you don't have the administration / business sense to understand why these are important issues then how are you going to manage a $250,000 budget and organize a fare voting process and all the other "tedious details" of your grand plan. If your not even willing to wonder how it is from the orgs side, then there is no way you are going to pull this off or get them to agree. "

bob a, in one of my two day jobs, i am the director of a project with a yearly budget of a half million dollars (www.rosettaproject.org). i also run an artspace with a 100,000 dollar yearly budget and constant resistance from the city of berkeley (www.theshipyard.org). i built both of these "businesses" myself, from scratch. i am not a starving artist. i am not a business idiot.

i like to make things happen in the world. and i do it by not having my first rection to any new idea being an immediate nose dive into the most tedious of details about the proposed. we will get to those soon enough. and yes, we must get to those. we always do in the end.

but first, larry has to take the bet. if the borg won't play ball with ideas so many people clearly want to play with, we are all simply going to be done with this tedious show and take our marbles elsewhere.

we have no interest in continuing to contribute our creativity to a futile cause.

j

Well first Jim I'd like to apologize if you thought I was insulting your abilities or skills. I guess I did take a little offence to your implication that all I could see were the bureaucratic details. Your quick dismissal of some basic ideas that I think would make this more doable rubbed me the wrong way. Not your dismissal of the ideas themselves, your free to disagree with those, but the idea that any non art detail was uncalled for. As I have said in every post I think this is a good idea. I don't think I was diving into petty detail, nor putting forth negativity. I think I said fairly broadly, just don't include a deal breaker from the start if you are serious. Believe me there is a lot of petty detail that someone could really go into if they wanted.

Also remember artists are not the only ones who create and contribute to the community. We all try to give in our own way and use the skills and creativity we have to help. Some people spend all there time rangering or emergency services, or doing office work for the various departments that need it. It may not be your cup of tea but you should respect that it’s all needed and that it’s their gift to the community. I may not be as visually creative as you, but I try to give where I can, and use the skills I have.

At the risk of sounding tedious again, have you talked to someone at the org yet? I still don’t believe that Larry will "take your bet" online or that they will plan with you in what amounts to a stadium full of screaming people. Maybe a dozen people in a room someplace they will do.

Oh III, glad see you back I hope you stay around the board has been less without you.

Bob A

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:07 am

Villages already are part of Black Rock City, but tend to lack several features that could make them a more important part of the collective experience rather than an experience for their inhabitants, which tends to be the case. I would guess that the APL authors would recommend bringing several of them together to form an individual unit of the subculture mosaic. But since yesterday’s discussion I have been thinking hard about what other architectural features might be applied to BRC.

The pattern that I keep coming back to, albeit without much clarity, is the Sacred Site. Somehow, it would seem to me that it is through the adaptation of this pattern that the two areas in which Burning Man is said to be broken—a deficit of art and a diminished sense of community—might be repaired.

Bob slammed the nail into the 2X4 with one blow yesterday when he said that the Man was like the centerpiece in a cake and that he was disengaged from it. It may be that the ever more looming Man on his dome or tower has less importance than when he stood on hay bales. A critical aspect of the APL authors’ view of the Sacred Site is that the experience of community members is intensified if the site can be approached through a progression of areas that amplify its impact. “We must therefore build around the sacred site a series of spaces which gradually intensify and converge on the site.”

Now, I readily acknowledge that the crescent-shaped city plan with the man in the middle isn’t going to change anytime soon. However, if the layout were loosened up a bit to encourage the formation of smaller sub-entities, each with its own Common Land and Sacred Site, the whole might benefit. This is where the big, mind-blowing art can come in (and please forgive me, I haven’t had my coffee yet so maybe this is half-baked or worse,) by anchoring and providing identity to, each unit in the mosaic of subcultures.

The common land has two specific social functions. First, the land makes it possible for people to feel comfortable outside their buildings and their private territory, and therefore allows them to feel connected to the larger social system. . . . The second social function of common land is straightforward. Common land provides a meeting ground for the fluid, common activities that a house cluster shares.

Some implications of this might be to:
- Draw a new city plan providing for common lands that are accessible from the esplanade that each contain some kind of extraordinary art and other incentives to social use.
- Allow for buffer spaces between adjacent units of the subculture mosaic; these might also be excellent sites for art.

III and MositurePup posed a very interesting question, which was whether any of this mattered since BRC is a temporary city. It seems to me that it is precisely because BRC is fleeting that more attention, not less, needs be given to settlement patterns that encourage people to interact with their neighbors. To fail to encourage this is to see the event go further down the path toward fewer participants and more spectators.

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:05 am

Seems like the potty clusters are already half way to being neighborhood centers. If there were additional amenity, maybe in a circular commons area that provided provided identity. These parks would possibly be a good venue for smaller sculpture. A burn barrel or something that would function as a camp fire would go a long was to contribute to people hanging around and getting to know each other.

III · Post by **III** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:13 am

part of the problem with the current villages is that they need to fight for space like theme camps, and that they aren't given enough autonomy or resources to be able to perform civic functiions on their own (where in this case, by resources, i mean just space and the ability to determine its layout, rather than money, power, or other utilities). when a village can define its neighborhood of several bocks, instead of at best one, is when the more intimate comunities can get going again.

i don't expect that to happen, however...

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:01 am

My own disengagement with the Man has nothing to do with its height, elevation, or what, if anything, is underneath it. It's more about avoiding the crowds and the mob mentality.

The Man never "sat" on "hay" bales. The Man was hinged on a raised wood platform, with straw bales stacked around it to add cheap bulk fuel. It was raised and lowered with a rope and A-frame so they could futz with the neon and strap on the pyro. Participants kept climbing on the thing and fucking with the neon, so I'm glad they put it on a taller stand.

So, I can see an argument for just a big log stuck in the ground. Put some blinky lights on it and you can still use it to navigate. Use a forked log so it doesn't look like such a dick, etc.

As for Villages -- I just don't care about Villages. Cleanup still starts in 272 days.

andi · Post by **andi** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:00 pm

It is heartwarming to see the discussion turn more intellectual and move away from the emotional bloodletting of the past few weeks. It is encouraging that Jim and Chicken are sticking to their guns and have put forth a concrete proposal to "fix" the "art problem" at BRC in a postive way that could help to repair the community (if they don't get too antagonistic about it, and remember not everyone subscribes to your sense of comedy).

There are many areas of BRC that can use improvement, from more art, to changes in city planning, to ways to enhance and nuture our community. Unfortunately making big changes to our desert experience are not easy and take a lot of time (nevermind the fact that the Project's senior staff will be reluctant at best to deal with anyone who threatens them or insults them after all the years of hard work they put in). Throwing large amounts of money at it is not likely to work, and different groups splitting off to "correct" the problems their own way are not likely to make changes that will stand the test of time (as opposed to solutions worked out and agreed upon by the WHOLE burner community).

So what to do? How about following the lead of all the many disenchanted long-time burners who either left BRC or only come back sporadically. For over half a decade now burners fed up with the playa have been going back to where they came from and started not only their own "BM-inspired" event, but they have also formed the nucleus of a local burner community that has grown with time. Over time these independent groups of burners came together with the Project and now we have the Regional Network.

Sick of how big BRC has become? Think it has turned into Disneyland? Do you long for the old days when there was a much smaller, more intimate, and by some people's definition, more creative community (read more art)? Well that option has already been available to you for the past number of years, Regional events.

There are over 25 multi-day Regional events a year now and the number is expanding quickly. If you go to Flipside (Austin) or Playa Del Fuego (a collection of east coast Regionals) or Synchronicity (midwest) or synorgy (Utah) or Mooseman (Canada) you step back into time to the playa some time before 1995 (these are just a few of the worldwide Regional events off the top of my head, there are many more).

I applaud our discussion to enhance our playa experience including increasing the art, strengthening the community, and perhaps some changes to how BRC is run. But to be realistic, we should be focusing on how we can cooperatively help the Project with respect, otherwise not many of all these good ideas are likely to get anywhere. And if BRC is so far gone to you, why not step up to the plate and lead by example by throwing your own event (like the 66-odd Regionals who have gone before you, and other groups like Early Man)? It is easy to tear down someone else's ideas, it is much harder to construct a reality based on your idea.

I totally support your "Borg2" plan to help bring back the focus to art on the playa and encourage more Participation. But I have to warn you that if you take this good plan and turn it into a storming of the castle gates for the purpose of "regime change", you are going to run into a brick wall (watch out for that pesky boiling oil too). The senior staff (hell all of the BRC LLC staff and volunteers) are heavily invested in the Project, they have spent years if not more than a decade of their lives sheparding this whole thing along, there is a LOT of passion there (otherwise why would they do it) so it is natural to expect resistance to ideas that gut the structure that they have been honing for almost 20 years. I always enjoy a good gate-storming, this ought to be fun to watch, but if you really are serious about your changes to "the Man" I just think you would get a whole hell of a lot more mileage and be a lot more successful if you ran your own event free of Project interference.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:01 pm

III wrote:part of the problem with the current villages is that they need to fight for space like theme camps, and that they aren't given enough autonomy or resources to be able to perform civic functiions on their own (where in this case, by resources, i mean just space and the ability to determine its layout, rather than money, power, or other utilities). when a village can define its neighborhood of several bocks, instead of at best one, is when the more intimate comunities can get going again.

i don't expect that to happen, however...

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:06 pm

III wrote:part of the problem with the current villages is that they need to fight for space like theme camps, and that they aren't given enough autonomy or resources to be able to perform civic functiions on their own (where in this case, by resources, i mean just space and the ability to determine its layout, rather than money, power, or other utilities). when a village can define its neighborhood of several bocks, instead of at best one, is when the more intimate comunities can get going again.

i don't expect that to happen, however...

Perhaps I should write something this time ...

Maybe it is time for things to evolve one step further. Look at human civilization as an example. We evolved from camps to villages to city-states. It seems like what is being proposed is a sort of semi-autonomous city-state. I say semi because the overall organization will still be required for permits and the like. Maybe it could further evolve into a confederation if it proved popular enough with the "new BRC" assisting in the administrative and infrastructure tasks in a cooperative way.

Not that this is any kind of proposal or formal suggestion, just a thought that happened to spring to mind that leaked to this place.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:12 pm

I also had a thought that it might make it easier for both experimental communities if there was some way for placement to be done so that they don't get in each other's way. Looking at the current configuration the obvious solution lies in the real estate between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock. Maybe a wedge between 11 and 1 that could be used for the new experiment. The obvious obstical to that is the trash fence. Could it be pushed back a little? There are some logistical challenges such as the distance to Camp Arctica for ice and possible porta-potty placement.

If the new city-state had its own autonomous region, the BMORG would have more leeway in allowing them to do more experimentation without potentially kinking up their infrastructure and planning.

Just some additional food for thought.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:15 pm

NaNoWriMo is over, andi. Put down your pencil.

andi · Post by **andi** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:26 pm

Hey there Bob, good to see you still adding something constructive.

III · Post by **III** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:30 pm

i should also point out, i suppose, that i am among a small band of malcontents who think that we'd have a better time if we had more say over what we could do. however, there are lots more people who like the structure set up as it is. since some of that structure is predicated on legal grounds, it is unlikely to change, and since a fair number of people approve of it, it behooves the brcllc to pursue their ticket dollars to keep the event going.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:01 pm

Well, andi certainly speaks to (if not for) a certain number of people who want to do Regional activities with a certain stamp of identity under the org's imprimatur.

There are a hell of a lot of people out there, though, and I don't think andi's spoken to all of them.

andi · Post by **andi** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:16 pm

Bob wrote:Well, andi certainly speaks to (if not for) a certain number of people who want to do Regional activities with a certain stamp of identity under the org's imprimatur.

There are a hell of a lot of people out there, though, and I don't think andi's spoken to all of them.

I don't speak for anyone but myself, I am sorry if I am giving you the impression of some form of authority, I am just one person speaking my mind and sharing with you what I know to be true as I see it. Sticks and stones Bob.

To be honest there is not a Regional out there who wants to be labeled as one of Larry's franchises. The common thread tying all Regionals together is BRC and since the Project IS the one running the show, well, you either do business with them or you start your own show. An enormous amount of Social Capital has been generated over the almost 20 years of Burning Man's existence and the worldwide burner community is much larger than many of you realize. There are enormous benefits to working together in a cooperative environment, and yes I know not many of you actually see or even hear about all this, but it has been growing quietly for some time now.

Here is some comedy for you, you all love comedy right? I can't remember if it was this year or last year at the Regional summit on the playa, but Larry once referred to our little partial gathering of Regional Contacts as a kind of "constitutional congress" or at least the beginnings of one. He said he wanted burners from all over the world to help decide Burning Man's future, or something like that, I am paraphrasing a lot because I can't remember exactly what he said. I have NO idea if Larry has any deeper democratic inclinations more than a couple of remarks at a gathering, but it was something on his mind. Note: I don't speak for Larry either, the only time I ever talked to him was for 10 minutes at the 2003 Regionals party (and I was one of 3 people talking to him at once).

natthebat · Post by **natthebat** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:27 pm

I like blood letting and storming castle gates! I also like constructive brain storming and compromise (I guess). Well done with that Andi.

I want to be a part of the armed resistance against the golf cart armada.

Oh goodness ... what will I wear?!

nat

Announcing: The BORG2 . . . and the bet . . .

on tedium

Re: on tedium