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[Traveller in Time]

Can someone tune that voice in my head that I hear
when-reading-online-comment to a more friendly tune

It is not any attitude (whatever -itude) it is the cold characters
you get on the screen making you hear it in a wrong tone.

[BBadger]

All this unpleasantness would be avoided if presale tickets were valued, as in printed-face-valued, at the same price as main sale tickets so that, for purposes of resale, the only thing buying a presale ticket buys you is access to a guaranteed ticket at an earlier time. This would be exactly in line with what a presale tickets are meant for purchasing, and how they were utilized in the golden age before tickets for the event sold out.

As is, selling a presale ticket after the main sale is selling a product with depreciated value, which doesn't follow the spirit of "not above face value," though perhaps face-sticker-price.

Really, we should be directing our anger at the BMORG for creating and continuing this scheme in the first place. They no doubt have no interest in changing this policy, as this would be killing a golden goose. As for the attendees, they will work within the constraints that are given to maximize their own benefit regardless of what they "should" be doing.

[Papa Bear]

I'm arguing that the BMORG builds in an advantage for those who already have an inherent advantage in the first place with being relatively well-off.

I'm not denying that effect. I'm just pointing out that it also provides an option for those who also have higher costs to attend - i.e. families with kids too old to go for free, but not yet of age to be buying their own.

I'm not particularly surprised that some may resent the fact that those with significantly more resources have an easier time buying a higher-priced ticket.

I *am* surprised that anyone would be resentful of a parent using that option to get tickets for herself and her kids. There's nothing nefarious or shameful about that - she's doing it the right way.

Do any of the people who are bitter about this have a better proposal that would let folks like funkill buy tickets for themselves and their kids in an "approved" way, maintain funding for low-income tickets, and yet not be subject to abuse by those with greater means?

[Papa Bear]

All this unpleasantness would be avoided if presale tickets were valued, as in printed-face-valued, at the same price as main sale tickets so that, for purposes of resale, the only thing buying a presale ticket buys you is access to a guaranteed ticket at an earlier time.

I like the thought, but to play devil's advocate...

Consider the person who only buys a presale ticket, with the full intent of using it, but for whatever reason is then unable to go. I think it's perfectly legitimate for them to want to recover the full price they paid, especially if it is some financial hardship event preventing their attendance.

Printing the main sale price with no other indicator that the ticket is a presale ticket makes that harder. They could, of course, produce a receipt showing the actual price they paid... but without a way to verify that a specific ticket is associated with a specific receipt, it's all back to the easily-abused honor system.

So either a culture develops where nobody ever pays more than the main sale price for a resale ticket and the legit folks who need to sell theirs get screwed, or people accept that it's ok to pay the presale price if you see the receipt. The latter opens the door to scammers who fake receipts to resell main sale tickets at a higher price, with no way for the buyer to know for sure. At least now they can look at the ticket itself to see if the price is legit.

Not saying that the idea doesn't have merit, just that all it may do is change which part of the population gets screwed.

[vargaso]

I'm arguing that the BMORG builds in an advantage for those who already have an inherent advantage in the first place with being relatively well-off.

I'm not denying that effect. I'm just pointing out that it also provides an option for those who also have higher costs to attend - i.e. families with kids too old to go for free, but not yet of age to be buying their own.

I'm not particularly surprised that some may resent the fact that those with significantly more resources have an easier time buying a higher-priced ticket.

I *am* surprised that anyone would be resentful of a parent using that option to get tickets for herself and her kids. There's nothing nefarious or shameful about that - she's doing it the right way.

Do any of the people who are bitter about this have a better proposal that would let folks like funkill buy tickets for themselves and their kids in an "approved" way, maintain funding for low-income tickets, and yet not be subject to abuse by those with greater means?

Here's the thing, and I say this will all due respect as a parent myself: I don't care if bringing your kids presents some difficulty for you. Everyone has their difficulties and challenges, why should you be catered to by the BMORG just because you have more disposable income than most? The event is not mandatory. Are we supposed to feel sympathy for you because without the pre-sale, you might not be able to bring your entire family? Honestly. Everyone is scrapping for tickets. Everyone has people they'd like to bring but probably can't for various reasons.

As for a better proposal, Badger has outlined a pretty good one. It's borderline offensive that those who can afford pre-sale tickets AND main sale tickets are allowed more chances.

I should add, I never said you were breaking any rules. I merely believe the rule in question is a bad one.

[BBadger]

Consider the person who only buys a presale ticket, with the full intent of using it, but for whatever reason is then unable to go. I think it's perfectly legitimate for them to want to recover the full price they paid, especially if it is some financial hardship event preventing their attendance.

I have zero empathy for this situation. The whole "face value" rule is supposed to protect buyers from sellers seeking to make a profit on the tickets. It's not supposed to protect sellers and their "investment" in a ticket they purchased.

On a more fundamental level, I feel that BM is ultimately a vacation. If you can afford tickets in the first place and shit happens where you can't use them, well too bad.

As for presale tickets, I don't think anyone is entitled to receive a refund on the time and guaranteed access that the presale ticket premium purchased. Those benefits are immaterial after the main sale begins. Otherwise, one might as well receive a refund for buying a ticket and not using it. By pricing presale-but-not-really tickets at their presale prices, these tickets are effectively being sold above face value (which is not the same as sticker price), because the value of the ticket is exactly the same as a main sale ticket for all intents and purposes.

[Eric]

Consider the person who only buys a presale ticket, with the full intent of using it, but for whatever reason is then unable to go. I think it's perfectly legitimate for them to want to recover the full price they paid, especially if it is some financial hardship event preventing their attendance.

Papa Bear - you've been going since 2003 (my first year as well). Do you remember the tickets in the pre-2011 years? They never ran out. Every Single Person who bought a ticket was going to take a loss if they had to resell it, because nobody would pay full price - why would they? They could get a full price ticket from a retailer without worrying. I remember friends getting tickets for $25 ea the Friday before Gate because someone suddenly couldn't go, and rather than them going to waste they took the hit just to get something back.

I'm firmly in the "you should only get to buy tickets in one sale" camp. I've always supported the idea of all tickets having the same face value, regardless of the price their sold for, but there are probably legal issues that keep that from happening. I would settle for people still having access to their high price tickets, but being banned from the DGS & Main sales, just like someone in the DGS is banned from the Main sale currently. The playing field should be as even as possible, and the BMorg is not doing that.

Funkill - come to the ePlaya Meet & Greet during the Burn on Weds (at Barbie Death Village). You'll discover most people here are honestly wonderful in person, but we're also the sort of people who hang out on a Burning Man chat board all year. We have strong opinions & fiercely love "our" Burn, and most of us have very different versions of what the Burn is.

[Papa Bear]

The whole "face value" rule is supposed to protect buyers from sellers seeking to make a profit on the tickets. It's not supposed to protect sellers and their "investment" in a ticket they purchased.

I think that's a perfectly fair way to think about it.

As I said, I like the thought. I just wanted to play devil's advocate enough to point out that it's not a perfect win-win solution; there are nice people who aren't doing anything wrong who will come out on the short end of it. But that's unavoidable no matter what option you go with - it's just something that goes with scarcity.

Overall, I think it's the most promising idea I've heard proposed. I just don't think it will be the panacea some may be hoping for - there are enough people who want to go that some people who buy pre-sale tickets will still be able to sell them for full price by showing their receipt.

Or is the unsaid corollary to this proposal also that *any* ticket sold above main sale price will be subject to being voided by the org? I'm not entirely sure that would be legally enforceable. But I'm not a lawyer, so who knows?

[Papa Bear]

Here's the thing, and I say this will all due respect as a parent myself: I don't care if bringing your kids presents some difficulty for you. Everyone has their difficulties and challenges, why should you be catered to by the BMORG just because you have more disposable income than most? The event is not mandatory. Are we supposed to feel sympathy for you because without the pre-sale, you might not be able to bring your entire family?

OK, first off, this isn't about me, and I'm not asking for sympathy. I've never bought in presale, and my kids aren't old enough to need tickets. The person who is in that boat is funkill, and I'm surprised and saddened at the amount of animosity that seems to be directed toward her personally. I think that's unfair; she hasn't done anything wrong.

If someone hates the ability to buy in both the presale and the main sale, then fine, no problem. It's taking that frustration out on a person who has nothing to do with setting the policy, and isn't doing anything inappropriate, and asked a perfectly reasonable question that I have an issue with.

I'm also not arguing that allowing people to buy in both sales is necessary. I've generally been against it, and the more I reflect I think I still am. Funkill's case was the first time I've seen any situation laid out where the policy seemed to have a positive outcome. My argument is more a matter of personal style - if we're discussing the merits, I prefer to make sure all the pros and cons on either side are laid out, rather than just a blanket judgment.

My "got a better idea?" question was directed at those who appear to have a problem with a higher-priced ticket sale existing at all. That's why I included "funding low-income tickets" as one of the things a replacement needed to address. Looking back, though, it's clear that's not the argument you are making, so I apologize for conflating them in my response.

The other reason I posed that question is because I've seen people (again, not you) complain about individuals "cheating" by rounding up non-burner friends to try to buy in an effort to increase their chances in the main sale. We can't have it both ways - absent nontransferable tickets, we can either allow a single person to buy more than two in a legitimate way (in this case, at an increased cost), or we live with more non-burner "helpful friends" crowding the main sale.

Allowing limited purchases in both sales does reduce the competition in the main sale generated by friends of people like funkill who really need more than two tickets. That's why I counted the effect on small families/groups as a "pro", but I acknowledge it's a weak one given that the main sale will also see an increase in competition due to the "presale as insurance" buyers. We don't know how many of each there are, so it's impossible to tell whether the main sale competition sees a net increase as a result of the current policy.

Diverging a bit, it seems to me that in an ideal world, there would be a way for groups to band together and say "we need X number of tickets" and try for them in a single all-or-nothing transaction. For many families, that's the deal - if the kids can't go, neither can the parent, and there are other groups for whom something similar applies. I'm not sure how to do something like that in a fair and abuse-resistant way, though.

[Papa Bear]

Do you remember the tickets in the pre-2011 years? They never ran out. Every Single Person who bought a ticket was going to take a loss if they had to resell it, because nobody would pay full price - why would they?

I do remember. I'm actually a counterexample for your assertion, though. We'd bought tickets for '06 but wound up being unable to go, and were still able to sell to a local burner at full price.

Still, I take your point. I'm not arguing anyone should be guaranteed to be able to get their money back out of it. I'm just saying that unless reselling presale tickets at the presale price can result in them being voided, plenty of folks will still be able to do so, so printing the main sale price on presale tickets isn't necessarily going to solve the problem.

I would settle for people still having access to their high price tickets, but being banned from the DGS & Main sales, just like someone in the DGS is banned from the Main sale currently. The playing field should be as even as possible, and the BMorg is not doing that.

The more I reflect on this, the more I'm inclined to return to my original position - which is exactly what you just described. I was excited to finally find a case where it seemed to work out in a positive way, but the balance of the arguments against still seem to outweigh it.

Funkill - come to the ePlaya Meet & Greet during the Burn on Weds (at Barbie Death Village). You'll discover most people here are honestly wonderful in person, but we're also the sort of people who hang out on a Burning Man chat board all year. We have strong opinions & fiercely love "our" Burn, and most of us have very different versions of what the Burn is.

Yes, I highly recommend doing so. I haven't actually managed to make it to one of them in years, but they're a good time all around.

[FlyingMonkey]

Hahahaha no, it's a public forum and every body gets to imput. Most people here are wayyyyy nicer in person.

Besides if it was nice all the time it would get boring. YMMV

Nope. I'm an asshole in person too (Not really)

[Simon of the Playa]

Funkill - come to the ePlaya Meet & Greet during the Burn on Weds (at Barbie Death Village). You'll discover most people here are honestly wonderful in person

this is why i don't go.

i don't wan't to ruin my street cred.

[Zubeneschamali]

I've been edubicating myself on how to act at the next M&G

Be Nice.jpg (37.62 KiB) Viewed 2430 times

[maladroit]

The option for buying more than two tickets exists, you can buy up to 8 tickets in the Pre-Sale What, your kids aren't worth $990 each?