Larry Harvey takes the bet . . . can you believe it?

Chicken John · Post by **Chicken John** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:22 pm

" see your point, geekie, I really do...

but I still feel yucky about it."

I agree there is a yucky feeling. I'm not ignoring it, but I am hoping it will pass. Or something. It may just be the suspence of the 3rd stage of the show. See, a show is divided into 4 sections. Beginning, middle, reveal and conclusion. We revealed. The conclusion happens at Decompression next year. The middle is in the wrong place. We did: beginning, reveal, middle conclusion. I'm doing the best I can. This is an improv show after all.... I'm sorry you feel yucky. Maybe your answer is Borg3?

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:07 pm

Chicken John wrote:" see your point, geekie, I really do...

but I still feel yucky about it."

I agree there is a yucky feeling. I'm not ignoring it, but I am hoping it will pass. Or something. It may just be the suspence of the 3rd stage of the show. See, a show is divided into 4 sections. Beginning, middle, reveal and conclusion. We revealed. The conclusion happens at Decompression next year. The middle is in the wrong place. We did: beginning, reveal, middle conclusion. I'm doing the best I can. This is an improv show after all.... I'm sorry you feel yucky. Maybe your answer is Borg3?

You see her point, but when I expressed the same dilema last week you called me stupid. Borg2 could use some help in the PR Dept.

amy

Shinxy · Post by **Shinxy** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:48 pm

Let me just say for the record that it's high time that those San Franciscan nancy boys who think that Burning Man is all about their art get rudely awakened to the fact that Burning Man is a lot bigger than just a San Francisco artist's showcase. Harvey's right- the art is important, but it's the community aspect, the all inclusiveness, the fact that there ISN'T one focus, that draws people in. It's naive to think that Burning Man will ever be able to claim authoritative autonomy as long as we're within the continental united states, especially at the size it's grown to. Yes, last year was my first year, but I have just as much of a voice as anybody, and I'm sick and tired of Californians who think it's their event acting like two year old children. If Burning Man ever decides to take a step backward just to cater to the petty demands of the San Francisco art community, I will eat my own hat.

BORG2 won't see a dime from me. Grow up. The only way to answer bad art is by making better art, not by making some kind of divisive scene.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:48 pm

So, um, I guess that's what they mean when they say somebody pissed in someone's corn flakes.

Chicken John · Post by **Chicken John** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:01 pm

Glowscreen wrote:
""I guess I'm not asking for any answers. I just wanted to express to Jim Mason, Chicken John, Ladybee and everyone else that this has created quite a strange situation for artists. Do I have to choose a side?"

Then I wrote:

"Don't be stupid, apply for as many grants in as many places as you can and put your thing wherever you want to and/or move it twice a day!!!! Build 2! Get a grant for something and build something else! Suprise somebody.... freak out.... play requetball in an evening gown... take a blind guy to a movie... learn to play the ukelale.... collect stamps.... I'm glad your not asking for answers.... I'm losing it."

Listen, if you want me to apologize for saying the word "stupid" I will but it wasn't meant with any disrespect. C'mon, give me a break you know I was tring to be funny. Your all half cocked and ready to shoot me I was answering your question. I don't want you to take sides. Anyone can apply for any grant they want. It would be nice to think that if someone got both grants and didn't need all the money they would do the right thing. I for one would love to see some choas abound! Some of you guys on Eplaya are so fucking serious. Where is the fun? I'm doing all this, as I have previously stated, to end up at joy. Making art at BM is the funnest thing I have ever done. It is mine (and many others) feeling that this current system stifeles this process and my intention is to provide this fun feeling as a gift to people.

to Shinxy

Burning Man started as a group of artists from SF and there are still many artists from SF that go. WE ARE CLOSER. WE WIN. We can bring bigger stuff for cheaper than you because of our unfair geographic location. Your new. You havn't seen the struggle for a decade. Your hat. I reccomend salt. Leave it out in the sun for a few days. Get it on video. I'll buy a copy....;)[/i]

Shinxy · Post by **Shinxy** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:34 pm

I'm not here to start my own wager with BORG2, but if I were you I would expect something a lot bigger than you'd think possible coming out of Boston this year. Count on it.

As for the hat, we'll see what happens, but I'll come out west just to be first in line at that dunk tank.

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:42 am

Listen, if you want me to apologize for saying the word "stupid" I will but it wasn't meant with any disrespect. C'mon, give me a break you know I was tring to be funny.

OK - Peace.

I did not know that you were trying to be funny.

Now, just so you know, there's a lot of discussion amongst the BM community here in NYC about your proposal. My question about being forced to choose a side is echoed throughout my clan. I thought you should have taken my concern more seriously.

amy

III · Post by **III** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:18 am

everyone thinks their concerns should be taken more seriously. that's what started the whole petition thing in the first place, no?

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:37 am

III wrote:everyone thinks their concerns should be taken more seriously. that's what started the whole petition thing in the first place, no?

Yes, that's true.

It is also true that artists will be forced to choose sides. The artwork has to physically be located in either the new borg area or the old borg area.

Many of the ideas expressed in the petition really excite me, but I don't know if I can trust these people to do what they say that they will do.

So, when I asked if I had to choose a side I was expressing my frustration with the situation.

I know for a fact that this feeling is shared among the burner artists in my section of the planet and I'm willing to bet it's a the same in the larger community.

amy

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:19 am

GlowScreen wrote:Many of the ideas expressed in the petition really excite me, but I don't know if I can trust these people to do what they say that they will do.

They deserve at lease ONE chance, don't they?

And as for choosing, I just don't see it as that. If you aren't already on board with Thing2 then you probably don't need to be. Thing1 is there for you. If they turn you down or put constraints on you that you cannot bear, you might talk to Thing2. The way I read it, Thing2 has a lot of people on board already with some hella art that would not have gone to burningman anyway had their only choice been Thing1.

I don't see it as being "forced" to choose. I am trying to understand what is the root of that feeling. Do you feel that if you become part of Thing2 you will have abandoned Thing1 or vice versa? Give a donation to both. You know, I like both Coke and Pepsi.

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:33 am

Geekster?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:49 am

Yeah, that's what I ment when I posted the other day about how the whole Borg1 / Borg2 thing reminded me of Dr. Suess

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:01 am

But I think Thing2 might make a nice mascot.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:15 pm

OK

so how do I get money from Borg2 for my art project? Seriously. I see a way to give them my money but not a way to get a grant from them. This lack of transparency is pissing me off.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:08 pm

I like the direction this has gone, I think it's a positive course. I have a question about geography. Do I understand it correctly that thing2 will have it's own space within the city limits much like a village or large theme camp? Will all the art 'sponsored' by thing2 be placed within that encampment or out on the open playa?

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:12 pm

This lack of transparency is pissing me off.

Me too. I want to believe in it and see it really take off, but I still have a nagging feeling that it's little more than fundraising for Jim, Chicken, and select people on their cool list. I'll give them a little time before coming to any conclusions.

Anthony Bondi · Post by **Anthony Bondi** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:17 pm

Stuart; You've offered a succinct description of this past November's election issues. It follows, the answer to your question is: What would Halliburton do?

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:50 pm

Dork wrote:
This lack of transparency is pissing me off.
Me too. I want to believe in it and see it really take off, but I still have a nagging feeling that it's little more than fundraising for Jim, Chicken, and select people on their cool list. I'll give them a little time before coming to any conclusions.

For what it's worth I don't for one second believe that they would mislead people and steal their money like this. These guys, why sometimes myopic, are not crooks. They have had experience with fundraising and benefit events, they've each helped other artists in the community and continue to do so.

They just haven't set up the infrastructure to accept proposals yet.

this is a good example of what Larry meant by the petitioners not being overly concerned with details. If it was my deal, all of that would'e been in place before the bet was proposed, but that's just me

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:16 pm

jeeeezzzzz . . . the paranoia and zeal to find fault here is amazing. baffliing really. and ultimately boring. remind me to not gather troops from the eplaya next time there is an interesting creative question on the table and in need of engagement and elaboration. i'd do better with a random sampling off the street i think . . .

come on folks, we just started this. we've had about 3 weeks. the borg1 has had about 20 years. we are idiots. they are geniouses. see? i can't even spell the plural of genius i'm such an idiot.

so can you give us a couple days to get our website crap together and figure out how everyone is going to do this? we are still mostly telling jokes and gloating that larry actually took the bet. but we promise to stop shortly . . .

but do notice on the site that it gives basic instructions for how to apply for guest curatorships, as well as says "send us and email" with project ideas. we just put up a couple projects that inititially expressed interest. we welcome more. we really haven't gotten much further than that.

we are having a meeting next week. all of you tedious eplayans are not invited. those not tedious and not prone to paranoia and fearthinking are invited and we encourge you to join us.

we will be electing a comptroller/treasurer to deal with the money, and setting up the elections for the guest curators as well as a llc like board to run the day to day activities of this. chicken and i are trying to step back as quickly as possible. we do not want it to be our show, despite all of your delicious conspiracy theories to that end.

if you could allow us a couple days so we can work a bit on these things, and not lose our day jobs in the process, it would be great.

maybe someone will even step forward to make us a decent website. dreamweaver and me made the current crappy one. i saw websites in 1994 that looked better than what we have now.

j

mamasaid · Post by **mamasaid** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:28 pm

Playa community...

I've been reading, following, thinking, feeling through this event...I am currently re-reading Larry's first response.
I would like to put out a few thoughts, not judgments, just my gut words...

Democracy is corrupt from the get-go. I know Afghanistan treats their women like shit, but who the fuck are we to come in, blast the fuck out of the place and install our own type of government? Iraq?
I'll tell you who: single-minded, opinionated americans.
Last, our latest example of democracy has gotten so out of hand that we are talking about secession.
Default world mentality, us-them mentality...
It never works.
I'm not an old-timer, only 3 years, so I understand there is some history I don't understand. Chicken, I only just barely met you and I hope my post won't ruin my chances of getting a gig there. However, Pink Floyd said it best, "Together we stand, divided we fall".

I am disgusted by our current US administration, but am equally as saddened by the blue sides need to divide, to separate. I had a thought the other day on a bike ride about how BOTH sides are becoming "Freedom fighters of separation"
Separation is not the idea...in default OR playa world
I have no suggestions, I have no answers. I just want to keep going to Burning Man and not be bothered by The man. I dont want my friends getting busted for trading weed for beer, and I want to see and interact with great art. Mostly, I want to feel the power that comes from this highly unique experience. I don't want to take sides, I don't want to have to have a special pass to enter Borg1 or borg2. (not saying there would be)

And I want my brothers and sisters to help each other and get along and find a way to do this that does not divide the community, unlike american politics.

These are just my thoughts as we go, I have to cancel a rehearsal to be there next wed, but I want to be there so I can get a vibe of what is going on. I hope it is pure, but I really don't believe so much in democracy anymore, not the way our default world does it...

With so much love for this community...
Maldita

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:12 pm

I see nothing divisive in what they propose. Perhaps you can explain exactly what you see is divisive so that I might understand? Everyone that gets involved with Thing2 will still buy a ticket, probably still visit Center Camp and many of the other camps. So far from what I see, it is mainly about art. I don't see anything divisive. You have some people that are saying that if thing2 didn't exist, they wouldn't be going to burningman at all ... so it seems INCLUSIVE to me, not divisive.

natthebat · Post by **natthebat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:58 pm

In an act of radical democracy, or shameless self-promotion or a desire to participate, I am electing myself BORG2 Mayor of Colorado.

I don't know if anyone else in Colorado wants to be the Mayor. I don't have to be the Mayor. I could be the Princess or the Queen or the Town Hooker. I don't really give a shit. As long as I can find other rebels who want to make and and bring ART to Burning Man in 2005, regardless of funding, weather, theme, the law, the details or the borg.

I will make my Burning Man 2005 home in the Rebel Camp BORG2. And all you paranoid, bean counters can live in predictability where you will see what you saw before. Then some how you can go home and accept BM as good and special but not completely fucking magical. I have no frame of refrence really. It was pure magic for me in 2004. My first time. But I have seen you in your communitys, old and bitter and set in your ways, always watching the money like that's all that matters. Money is not all we have or don't have. If you want to fight the BORG2 then focus on your own contribution and help the borg. Counting beans does not help the borg unless you're doing the work to secure permits for SRL to come. If you want to help BORG2 then focus on your own contribution and help Burning Man.

What are YOU going to do or make? You don't have to tell if it's a secret. But if you need help we will be here. We will be here for eachother to help build and do, because THAT is what community is founded upon.

If we are not dedicated to our cause, then we create mediocrity. What is your cause? How do you PARTICIPATE?

Forgive me if you don't like my "tone". But 9 months is not enough time to tip toe. I know you're not really bean counters. What do you do and make? I would like to talk about this now.

It's ON. Larry took the bet. Money will be spent on all fronts. Now what do YOU do and make?

I was asked to help with the Colorado regional burn planning. And while I have promised to help, my soul is still at Burning Man. I have to go get it back. Or maybe I'll just leave it there. It's happy there. I'm happy there. I'm not done with there yet. How will I live when I'm there? I will start living that way here and now. The regional will reaffirm what I learned THERE. It started there. I will try to do that scilent place in the desert justice.

That is where the magic was born.

So I'm going to submit this now, knowing full and well that I may get my ass kicked for daring to elect myself Mayor or calling you bean counters. But I've decided that I'm an emotional mastochist and I learn from your attacks and I like it. If you are in Colorado then find me at http://borg2.tribe.net/ and we can get together and you can tell me about your bad feelings for Jim Mason while we make something amazing for Burning Man.

Love, Nat

Buddha Jacobs · Post by **Buddha Jacobs** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:28 pm

outside of the bay area, very few people know this debate even exists. I found out about this reading some guy's blog this morning. A Borg is A Borg is A Borg...I wish you guys luck, but maybe you might want to focus on your regional scenes instead. And for you cats in the Bay Area - aren't there other places you can go to play?

"So the deal is this: this year on the Playa, there will be competing factions for your art-attention (and art dollar, should you choose to donate to Borg2.) Over here is Borg1, or the BMorg, that's BurningMan.org, Burning Man Central, the LLC, Larry's Little Leprechauns, or whatever you want to call them. "The Man", to cut to the chase. You can support these old ways of doing things, and help Larry Harvey franchise his vision around the world. Or you can give your money and your time and your vision to Chicken John and his radical free-thinkers over at Borg2. It's your decision. But either way - it's still the Borg."

http://gregoryp.com/lucid-dreaming/

Dork · Post by **Dork** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:40 pm

For what it's worth I don't for one second believe that they would mislead people and steal their money like this.

I don't think they would STEAL it either, I'm sure it will go towards art of some sort. They seem to have specific types of art in mind and are the ones deciding who the curator is and who votes on the projects, if there is voting. It could become a great thing where the most kick-ass projects get done regardless of where the builders live or whether they're on a first name basis with some of the big names in the SF scene, or it could be a few old timers getting a ton of money to redo past projects only bigger. That's all I'm worried about. I'm now patiently waiting to see what process they come up with.

And yes, I do plan on donating if I like what I see in addition to bringing my own (non-funded) projects.

natthebat · Post by **natthebat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:45 pm

What are you going to do or make bean counter? I want to talk about this.

jimmason · Post by **jimmason** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:16 pm

dork,

the real work of figuring out the process of selecting the guest art curators/facilitators/evangelists, a llc like board, a comptroller/treasurer, and other x's, y's and z's will start in earnest at the meeting next wednesday at the odeon.

yes, we do have lots of real work to do. we originally put out some ideas for how to do this. and those ideas are being refined on many fronts. it is unclear the end form they will take, but they will be formed, owned, created and implemented by many people.

chicken and i are earnestly trying to step back from this now and give roles to people who step forwards. there are many roles that need filling, roles we don't even know now.

we are committed to this experiment affirming the regional networks and involving the regionals in the process of the borg2 under the art based principles we have laid out.

in fact, one of the first things we are considering here is a borg2 regoinal coordinator- given that our proposals have met with such resistance by many regional groups. we are nominating peter who is the current bman boston regional to head up this effort. i'm not sure if we are going to vote on this one. he is the main regional person who has come forward to really participate this borg2 experiment, so he pretty much just elected himself.

our meeting next wednesday will have some sort of webcast or conference call so people away from sf can participate.

i orchestrated the first week of the petition thing sitting in a hotel room in chicago. so i don't want to hear anyone complaining that is not possible to really participate in this while not being physically present in sf. the internet is a most beautiful and effective tool. we plan to use it.

j

Tancorix · Post by **Tancorix** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:43 pm

the internet is a most beautiful and effective tool. we plan to use it.

It certainly is and I hope you do. Burning Man / Borg2's world should not revolve around the Bay Area. Give those of us stuck out here in the red states who want to participate a shot too.

I was very skeptical about all of this. The SF Guardian article didn't help that. But after 3 years of going to BM what is it that keeps me coming back? The art AND the people who make it. That's what I talk about when people ask me about BM and get into the why do YOU go vs the fuzzy I've heard of that, what is it type questions.

Nobody knows how this will turn out but Jim, thank you for having the balls to make it happen. Many of us bitch, you actually got people off their asses and did something. Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU!

Chicken John · Post by **Chicken John** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:42 pm

Mamasaid:
"Chicken, I only just barely met you and I hope my post won't ruin my chances of getting a gig there."

You people are so serious! Jesus! Just because we have different views on this silly subject? How thin is my skin do you think? I used to pour a little gasoline around my bed in the squat I lived in in the freezing NYC winter to keep the rats away from me. When I was in jail there was this really fat guy who used to let other cons feel his breasts while they jerked off for a ciggerette. I've carried dead bodies and I've done jury duty. I've shit my pants when my liver failed. I fixed a $700 an hour crane with a bobby pin. I told a judge that anyone who went to college was an idiot. I beat City Tow. I didn't sleep in the month of July, 1996. I've been beaten up by girls half my size. I've been rejected by my own dog. I fucked Sandra Bernhart.

So yea. Let me have it. Does your band wanna play Friday the 24th?

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:18 am

The SF Guardian article didn't help that.

The Bay Guardian does nothing to clarify anything. Just hippies at typewriters waiting for position to open down the street at Starbucks.

GlowScreen · Post by **GlowScreen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:32 am

geekster wrote:I see nothing divisive in what they propose. Perhaps you can explain exactly what you see is divisive so that I might understand? Everyone that gets involved with Thing2 will still buy a ticket, probably still visit Center Camp and many of the other camps. So far from what I see, it is mainly about art. I don't see anything divisive. You have some people that are saying that if thing2 didn't exist, they wouldn't be going to burningman at all ... so it seems INCLUSIVE to me, not divisive.

This brings back the same point that I was making earlier in this discussion. Artists who want to create art in the desert next year will have to make a choice. Will the art happen within the geographical regiion of Borg1 or Borg2?

Yes, we can apply for funding from both borgs, but seems clear to the artists that have discussed this here in NYC that we are faced with a choice. It is not a choice for us as the participants/viewers, but rather as the art makers. And it seems that a lot of us are sitting on the fence.

amy

Larry Harvey takes the bet . . . can you believe it?

For the sake of being a jerk

giving and getting

jeeeezzzzz pleaaasseeeee . . . ..

Borg2: Kind of a closed circuit