Close the Gates on Thursday !

sugarlarry · Post by **sugarlarry** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:24 am

Has anybody ever considered the fact that the vibe changes by the end of the week not soley because of the "yahoos", but because the bulk of the population has had very little sleep, and has taken tons of mood altering drugs all week? I saw tons of people I would describe as core burners wandering around with nasty looks on their faces. I met a few of them as well, and they treated me like something you'd scrape off of their shoe.

Yahoos do exist. No doubt about it, but people have turned them into some sort of boogyman out to ruin their vibe. The Fratboy is probably one of the bigger BM myths going. Yeah... I bet they come, but honestly... I've never met one ever. I've always thought at great theme camp would be Black Rock University's Frathouse. Perfect little nerve to poke.

supersurly · Post by **supersurly** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:07 am

I kinda agree with you larry, and kinda agreeing involves a lot of disagreeing.

I think the general surly factor later in the week stems from the fact that the population probably doubles from thursday to saturday. It is really hard to be personable to 30,000 people, especially when you just know that at least 10,000 of them are lecherous fratbois that drove in from reno and are out to grope drugged up women and burn other peoples art.

You generally know that someone there on saturday(the Other saturday) is there because they have a good reason, and are probably, statistically speaking, self suficient and able to maintain their end of a reasonable interaction. And they are saving all the good drugs for at least tuesday so odds are good for a reasonably sober interaction.

On the other hand, anyone on Saturday could just be an undercover Omega Psi Phi agent running recon for his hit squad of cronies, whom are all waiting, roofies in one hand, lube in the other in their pirate ship looking hummer.

Do a quick test, say hi to someone in a small town, then say hi to someone in downtown LA.

The demographics of the city change drastically with the weekend population surge.

We were camped right across the street from Fratboy Scaffolding camp, who were next to the Spank and Spray. They build this painters scaffold thing and sat up there drinking shitty beer and listening to 50 cent on this little boombox.

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:18 am

> an essay called 'why I want to be a burner'

No, it's gotta be titled "The Burning Man Spirit: How I Will Embody It."
Those who get it get tickets. Those who don't get a signed copy of all of
Larry Harvey's speeches over the last fifteen years as preparatory
material for next year.

And since I have no idea what that much-lauded spirit might be, I guess I'll
be spending next Labor Day in Hawaii instead.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:55 pm

you appear to gain a great deal of convenience for educators and students

So, uh, is it not a pre-req of frat-boyhood to be a student? The last thing I want there is more college age boys.

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:12 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:
you appear to gain a great deal of convenience for educators and students
So, uh, is it not a pre-req of frat-boyhood to be a student? The last thing I want there is more college age boys.

Your question seems to imply that some unacceptable threshold of students are fratboys. That would be a narrow understanding, at best. Also, dismissing the whole of the proposition on the quite possibly mistaken idea that there'd be more fratboys is akin to tossing the baby with the bathwater.

Not that I have any emotional investment either way. As I say, 2k3 was my last year.

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:46 pm

As much as I'd be for stopping ticket sales even early, perhaps eliminating ticket sales at the event, just thought of yet another problem with that. If someone didn't buy a presale ticket, they might come out anyway, hoping to buy one from another burner at the gate (works for concerts). If said people have no luck gettting a ticket, it will increase the stowaway and perimeter crasher problem.

So is making it harder to show up at the last minute going to make the event better, enough to accept there will be more people trying to sneak in?

jbelson · Post by **jbelson** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:08 pm

stuart scanlon wrote: The last thing I want there is more college age boys.

How 'bout college aged girls?

And for the high-and-mighty-burners that are feeling very exclusionary, maybe you should arrive later in the week so when saturday comes your not such a cranky-puss.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:43 pm

i only bought my ticket a week before the event, and my sushi arrives on the playa on friday. neither of which would be possible under some of the suggestions put forward.

which yahoos are we trying to get rid of? i bet i want to keep out different yahoos than you do.

portazo · Post by **portazo** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:59 pm

I've heard rumors that there has already been talk of shifting a week forward. I'm all for it! I took my 9yr old for her first year this year and she took to it like she had been going all her life! She missed her first week of 5th grade, which was fine, but next year she would have to miss her first week of middle school which is a whole nother ball game... And no, she's not a frat boy.

TestesInSac wrote:Well, moving the event to the 2nd week of August satisfies the 'school year' component of the difficulties getting to the event, and extends the likely clean-up time post-event. For the loss of a single day of holiday/vacation, you appear to gain a great deal of convenience for educators and students, as well as for DPW.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:35 pm

This debate has gone on for a long while.

I would be curious to see some statistics regarding the percentage of burners who are teachers/educators/students (i.e. severely impacted by the event being held over Labor Day weekend) vs. those who are not.
I've looked at the censuses (censii?) but it isn't very clear to me.

multiple · Post by **multiple** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:38 pm

This was our first year and my husband got us tickets by "magic" we got there on friday afternoon....set up camp and left sunday afternoon...
we have small childeren we needed to attend...since grandma could only take them for so long...and we needed "GROWN UP STIMULATION" maybe we can bring them when we stop needing that VERY IMPORTANT element...BUTT

I have read a lot about the difference in the beggining of the week and have heard only SPECTATORS come towards the end. even met people on the way out going home (BEFORE THE MAN BURNS? i say?
so why is it so bad we only come for the last few days, as oposed to the first few days? what is the difference? I intend to come out next year thursday....should I make it wed? so i don't seem a YAHOO?

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:24 pm

Ivy wrote:This debate has gone on for a long while.

I would be curious to see some statistics regarding the percentage of burners who are teachers/educators/students (i.e. severely impacted by the event being held over Labor Day weekend) vs. those who are not.
I've looked at the censuses (censii?) but it isn't very clear to me.

Well obviously each group makes up only a small part of the population. But I think totally excluding teachers, professors, students and parents who want to be with their kids for the first week of school, is rather sad. Even if it only effected 1000 people, I think it's a shame. Though I suspect the number is a good deal higher.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:57 pm

Ivy wrote:This debate has gone on for a long while.

I would be curious to see some statistics regarding the percentage of burners who are teachers/educators/students (i.e. severely impacted by the event being held over Labor Day weekend) vs. those who are not.
I've looked at the censuses (censii?) but it isn't very clear to me.

I agree, this is a horse that has been whipped and rode pretty damn hard and it seems it's just going around in big circles. No progress is happening here.

I see lots of good points being posted and so I'm going to add my own comment to the melee. I say leave the gate and ticket policies as they are....they seem to work well. This is a COMMUNITY of 30,500, and as with any community we have the good, the bad (frat boys, photogs at Critical Tits), and the ugly (Kathy Lampman's tragic loss). Changing the gate policies will not eliminate the yahoo / fratboy problem and besides who are we to exclude anyone anyway. Someone who's being a yahoo / fratboy might run into someone who gives him a gift, or teaches them something that helps them get it...and they become transformed. Next year they come back and we have a new burner, not a yahoo...who are we to exclude anyone? Leave the gate alone.

I wish the event was moved up a week because getting more students involved (non-fratboy types) and academics would strengthen the event and might even overpower the fratboy influence through an increasing population of these groups. The students would bring more energy into the mix, and if more academic types get it and catch playa fever they take it home and spread it...directly by bringing more people back to BRC or subtly by changing how they teach to be a little looser, a little more open....the possibilities are there!

All of the above is just idealistic thoughts rambling from someone who's in free association mode right now...feel free to flame away. I just want to see BRC stay alive and grow and meet all of you again next year or even earlier. Keep the BM Dream alive!

PJ · Post by PJ » Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:21 pm

multiple wrote:...why is it so bad we only come for the last few days, as oposed to the first few days? what is the difference? I intend to come out next year thursday....should I make it wed? so i don't seem a YAHOO?

After my first year I felt pretty strongly that it takes at least four days and four nights at the event to really have the experience. I still believe that, for many reasons. Some of them are similar to the reasons why the event couldn't be the same if it were held in some idyllic green mountain pasture.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:50 pm

PJ wrote:
multiple wrote:...why is it so bad we only come for the last few days, as oposed to the first few days? what is the difference? I intend to come out next year thursday....should I make it wed? so i don't seem a YAHOO?
After my first year I felt pretty strongly that it takes at least four days and four nights at the event to really have the experience. I still believe that, for many reasons. Some of them are similar to the reasons why the event couldn't be the same if it were held in some idyllic green mountain pasture.

I agree, 4 days is like the minimum for me. As for the event being the same when held somewhere else....this is an interesting problem...how do you capture the essence of BM and the BRC experience and bring it to a regional event? It seems like Burning Flipside has done it...I've never been there but it's not the playa yet people still go.
Maybe I'm getting off track here but Larry's vision for BM is to see events like Flipside spring up across the country. I've been sitting here between posts and burning mix cd's thinking how would I bring the event to the Midwest, particularily Missouri. Sheesh, I'll drop it, I'm tired and it's not coming out right. But 4 days is my minimum too.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:54 am

Even if it only effected 1000 people, I think it's a shame.

And what about the 1000 people who couldn't attend if the event was moved up from Labor day?

I think totally excluding teachers, professors, students and parents who want to be with their kids for the first week of school, is rather sad.

First, I don't think it totally excludes them. There will always be people in this category who choose Burning Man over school. Also, it's not like the BMOrg sits around going "How can we exclude those damn students and teachers?"
I'm sorry, but if you choose a job where you can't get that week off, that's your choice. It happened to a friend of mine this year (and not even an education job, at that). Yeah, it sucked. life goes on. It comes down to choosing your priorities: which is more importnat: BM or school? Personally, I'm seriously considering going back to school next year and I'm already looking at their schedules. But honestly, if it comes down to it for me, I will likely choose school over BM. Someone else may choose otherwise. But you know going into it that that's a decision you need to make. You can't always have your cake and eat it, too.

getting more students involved (non-fratboy types) and academics would strengthen the event and might even overpower the fratboy influence through an increasing population of these groups. The students would bring more energy into the mix, and if more academic types get it and catch playa fever they take it home and spread it...

I fail to see how this strength and "spreading the word" is limited to students and academics.

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:57 pm

> Just to play devil's advocate. . . Who do you propose to staff the gates, > once they are closed?
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera

Exactly! The problem w/ shutting the Gate simply is a matter of how much effort do we really want to put out to keep the yahoos from storming the gate after it's closed. As it is, there are no more tix sales after Thurs, and those coming in generally have tix. I personally sat at a very quiet Gate on friday night until GateMaster Shiloh relieved Feral Kid and I at about 8pm. Believe me, it was DEAD out there. Perimeter was a different matter. It stayed hopping. Seems most people got in prior to Thursday that "deserve" to be in, but crashing increased. Anyone out there want to volunteer for Perimeter and help out? Or would you rather bitch?

antron · Post by **antron** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:05 pm

i think we should confiscate the clothing (especially if from patagonia, rei and banana republic) from everyone who arrives after 12:01 am, unless they have a kick-ass costume.

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:22 pm

I HOPE you were kidding, partner. If not...

As The Man with the Hat (Larry) once said: we should issue "partici-pants" to anyone not wearing a costume.

Sorry, but I work Gate, get to see plenty of yuppies in their Banana Republics, and plenty of pachuli scented dreadded hippies, and a wealth of people in between. It is shear JOY to see a first-timer "go native" in a few days. BTW: I wear whatever the fuck is approprote for the job I'm currently involved in, which might look like street-clothes to costume-nazis.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:49 pm

That dead horse is still being whipped around here.....

Personally I could work with the event as it is or a week earlier...I'd have to burn an extra vacation day a week earlier but it's worth it.

No matter what the ORG does someone's going to be pissed off. You can't please everyone. I'll let Larry and the ORG work this one out and pick another battle; as long as they have the event, whenever it's scheduled I'll try and make it. And if I can't there are more and more regionals popping up that could hold me over if I had to skip a year.

My comments on academics came out because I'd like to see more ART in BM vs. all the music camps...don't get me wrong I love Reorient and Sol System and camps like that but I want to see more creativity on display. If the event is moved schedule wise to where more students could attend, I thought it could make it more interesting and provide the balance that other threads are saying we're missing.

Just to quash the occasional sniper who asks: What are you doing to fix the problem? I'm already designing an art car (one that meets the rumored DMV havily modified rule), a sub-theme camp that can be on the edge of Kidsville next year and some other ideas are popping up.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:16 pm

My comments on academics came out because I'd like to see more ART in BM vs. all the music camps...don't get me wrong I love Reorient and Sol System and camps like that but I want to see more creativity on display. If the event is moved schedule wise to where more students could attend, I thought it could make it more interesting and provide the balance that other threads are saying we're missing.

Iguess what I'm asking is why you are under the ijmpression that only students are artistic and make art?

I'm pretty sure you don't subscribe to this idea, as you are not a student but you've already indicated that you are working on an art project, so I'm wondering why the association?

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:26 pm

I just got back from an art festival here in KC when I made that post and I was thinking about all of the KCAI: Kansas City Art Institute students I saw down there....they were the ones doing what I felt was the most interesting work. I know there are lots of other people out there besides students. I know...it's a lame explanation but I just loved some of their work, and more importantly the energy and enthusiam they had...the same type of energy that BM has and needs even more of!

Don't worry, I was not trying to exclude you Ivy. Anyone that can make costumes like your Silver Fox one needs to be at BRC. You got a lot of talent!

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:26 pm

Post 400!!!!! Wheee!!!!!!

Sorry but I couldn't resist!

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:21 pm

My $.02 regarding students: They have a lot of life in 'em, and their point as students is to absorb ideas new to them. It makes sense, then, that they'd absorb Burning Man well, then maybe turn it on its head and make something new of it. In my 12 years in the CSU system, I got taught as many lessons by other students as I did by instructors.

Again, just a thought.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:29 pm

TestesInSac wrote:My $.02 regarding students: They have a lot of life in 'em, and their point as students is to absorb ideas new to them. It makes sense, then, that they'd absorb Burning Man well, then maybe turn it on its head and make something new of it. In my 12 years in the CSU system, I got taught as many lessons by other students as I did by instructors.

Again, just a thought.

This is what I had in mind but I got distracted earlier....and I couldn't get it to come out right. SO I posted the other stuff...but you hit it.

Larry's goal in Phases 3 and 4 is to spread BM far beyond the playa and the younger some..notice I said SOME, of the people are that get it, the longer we can see this continue.

As much as I like students though this is a community and all ages are needed to pull it off. I can also take the other extreme as some of the best technical answers can come from the other end of the age spectrum...people who say they know the rules, screw the rules. I recall a welder who was a WWII shipbuilder. When he got home he played by the rules at first but as he got older he grew bored and so he tossed the rules. Before he passed he was making his own arc welders from scratch and making the coolest stuff. BM has a place for all but the older people can usually find ways to work around scheduling (I know, a general assumption, shame on me). Students on the other hand can't do it so easily.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:51 pm

1. I never said I wasn't a student. You really have no way of knowing if I am or am not.

2. Just becuase students, by definaition, absorb ideas, does not mean they will absord BM well. On the flipside, there are also clearly non-students who would not absord BM well. I really don't think it has anything to do with being a student. Perhaps the only advantge you'd have as a student would be being able write a paper on BM for one of your classes, thereby justifying your attendance as part of your workload, something most ordinary people cannot do in terms of their employment.

2 1/2: I spent 5 years in the CSU system and I didn't learn shit. Yes, that's personal, but I just wanted to rant about it.

2 3/4: During the time I speant learning a fat lot of bupkus from the CSUs, I learned a great deal through life experience outside of school. Clearly this will not be the case for everyone.
(Come to think of it, I probably learned more preparing for and attending BM than I did in college. Perhaps the student should say "screw the school" and just go to BM instead?)

3. Students are not always disaprate from the "older end of the age spectrum."

4. Scheduling. Not all schools have a conflict with BM. UCLA for example, doesn't start it's first quarter until the end of September. There are a wide variety of starting dates, and I'm only thinking of CA becuase those are the school systems I'm familar with. So you can't even lump all students together as having scheduling conflicts.

Obviously, whether it moves or it doesn't, or when they move it to, there will always be some people that will be unsatisified due to schedule conflicts. I am so happy for people like Liamix who can merely "take another vacation day." Some of us have jobs where we can't do that. Some of us will have school--some students absolutely cannot miss the first day of class; for some people, they have finals that week. There's no solution that will satisfy all the attendees.

What I would like to see is if there is a majority need to alter the schedule. If so, then I fell it is something I could support. If said students, educators, and others, for whatever reason, who have conflicts, turn out to be a small percentage of the BRC population, then I don't see the point of moving the dates of the event. (with the exception of issues with the BLM, etc.)

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:55 pm

Ivy wrote:
Even if it only effected 1000 people, I think it's a shame.
And what about the 1000 people who couldn't attend if the event was moved up from Labor day?

Why would moving it from Labor prevent anyone from going when they have a yeart to plan? As an educator there are only 1 or 2 bad times for me to miss work. The biggy is the first week or two of school.

I think totally excluding teachers, professors, students and parents who want to be with their kids for the first week of school, is rather sad.

First, I don't think it totally excludes them. There will always be people in this category who choose Burning Man over school. Also, it's not like the BMOrg sits around going "How can we exclude those damn students and teachers?"

Burning Man started in June and then was moved to Labor Day Weekend. The date is fairly arbitrary. In fact the event may be moved, the question is when? From what I've heard, I don't think anyone in the organization is that attached to that date. I heard from someone in a previous thread that Larry is trying to get a new location and date. Rumor, perhaps?

I'm sorry, but if you choose a job where you can't get that week off, that's your choice. It happened to a friend of mine this year (and not even an education job, at that). Yeah, it sucked. life goes on. It comes down to choosing your priorities: which is more importnat: BM or school? Personally, I'm seriously considering going back to school next year and I'm already looking at their schedules. But honestly, if it comes down to it for me, I will likely choose school over BM. Someone else may choose otherwise. But you know going into it that that's a decision you need to make. You can't always have your cake and eat it, too.

Well, I chose more than a job, I chose a career. My life is a daily gift to the world. I chose to work with poor students who want to learn English, anywhere from age 4 to age 80+. In addition to teaching people English so they can communicate effectively and open many new doors in their life, I also guide students towards being more socially and environmentally conscious. I end up doing a bit of social work, too, on my job, as I realize meeting basic survival needs is first priorty before expanding the mind. While I could live without Burning Man, I suspect that Burning greatly profits by having people like myself at the event. I don't just talk the good talk, I am an active participant in life.

TheJudge · Post by **TheJudge** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:58 pm

I think that there is a significant number of people that would really benefit from moving the event to an earlier date. There's also a number of people that dont really care either way and are just happy to be there. If this is a big enough issue, perhaps it could be voted on by the city. Have an online voting system through the BM server that counts the votes and makes the decision. This is probably the only community in the world where a democratic voting system could really work.

And historically, there's never been anything tied to the date, so there really isnt a reason why it couldnt be changed.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:07 pm

Well, I chose more than a job, I chose a career. My life is a daily gift to the world. I chose to work with poor students who want to learn English, anywhere from age 4 to age 80+. In addition to teaching people English so they can communicate effectively and open many new doors in their life, I also guide students towards being more socially and environmentally conscious. I end up doing a bit of social work, too, on my job, as I realize meeting basic survival needs is first priorty before expanding the mind. While I could live without Burning Man, I suspect that Burning greatly profits by having people like myself at the event. I don't just talk the good talk, I am an active participant in life.

Stormy, I have always had and continue to have a great deal of respect for you.

That said: Fuck off.

I am SO happy you chose to have a "career." You made that choise. No one forced you into it. You could just as easily choose, to say, oh, make cheap plastic trophies. You could choose to work at McDonalds or be an actress. You could choose to attend BM. these are all choices you make. I'm terribly sorry if they conflict, but guess what? That's life.
I'm also so happy that you're going around making the world a better place. Becuase I'm sure that the other 30,699 of us aren't. We actually all get up in the morning and say "how can I make this world shittier?" And of, course the only way BM profits from any of us being at the event is from our ticket money. We in no way culturally, socially, or otherwise contribute to any society.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you do what you do and I'm glad you like it and do it well. But don't for one minute think that makes you any more deserving of BM than anyone else.

Obviosuly the date of the event is arbitray. i already mention that if there are issues with the BlM etc and the date is changed, so be it.
Right now, I have yet to see any reason having to do with the education calendar that warrents the event being rescheduled. I ahve seen fewer people than I can count on my fingers (out of 30,000) vociferously suggest that the event move dates. If more people speak up and make their voice heard, and it turns out that, in fact, it affects a majority of the citizens, then it seems to me a likely reason to rescedule. But not for a handful of people who think that it should be moved around their schedule becuase they are so much better than everybody else.

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:09 pm

I wonder if the online census for 2k3 provides for a way of infering any need to change dates? Hmmm.

Close the Gates on Thursday !

Oh great! More crashers!

Dress code at BM?