Compact Drill vs. Impact Driver for Lag Screws

[maladroit]

I've been using the same HF impact driver (1/2" corded model) for 4 years, about 20-30 16" lags depending on camp setup. If it breaks, it will happen on the playa for sure, but I'll either be able to find someone's driver to borrow or just use my socket wrench.

[Super C]

Took my Milwaukee impact driver for the first time to the playa. This is my 3rd burn. It came with 2 batteries. I managed to set up my Kodiak tent with vestibule (15 screws because of mis drills) plus my friends tent which was another 18 drills. Then FULLY undrill his camp, and MOST of mine. It did 80% of the way, but I had a second battery. Long story short, Impact driver is ABSOLUTELY worth it. Just DO it. WELL worth it, bringing mine again next year and offering for anyone that needs help

[spacetime]

Do you get use of the ID outside the burn?

[fireheadwhale]

I do. Use when I change tires. I feel like "nascar". I should keep the cordless in the car for that reason. Caught without it a few weeks ago when I had a flat. I live on an acre of hard pan. I do shade structures. I'm building a bridge over a creek that only has water 5-6 months of the year. I lagged a winch anchor into the ground where I pull containers of sand up out of the creek bed when it's dry. Find many uses for the sand. You can never have too many tools.

[Papa Bear]

I've been using the same HF impact driver (1/2" corded model) for 4 years, about 20-30 16" lags depending on camp setup.

It's the 4th for mine as well (though I use 18" lags, and more like 40 of them). Part of the reason I went with it is because it was cheap enough ($34-$39 "sales" several times a year) that I could buy a spare as backup.

I've seen a "speed handle" recommended as a better non-powered backup than a ratchet. I'd almost forgotten such things existed.

[Kenshiro]

At HD the lady showed me one on sale. She said all of the brands will have one on sale before xmas. I have less than 20 lags to put in. Oh, and then there is quarter inch drive or larger???

The 1/4” are impact *Drivers while 3/8”, 1/2”, and up are impact *Wrenches. The difference is analogous to screwdrivers vs wrenches...impact wrenches are (generally) bigger, burlier, and make more torque.

If you’re just getting one and it’s entirely for this one purpose, I’d suggest going for an impact *Wrench for the extra safety factor. Especially because you say all your lags are going to be the larger variety? Drawback is you can’t usually use impact wrenches for as much other stuff at home...mostly just changing tires and other heavy tasks...and they typically cost more. Impact *Drivers on the other hand tend to have a lot more general utility around the house with their smaller size etc.

These aren’t completely universal rules. The “prosumer” companies like Makita, Milwaukee, or Dewalt can have really stout impact drivers that could outperform and outlast some of the really cheap impact wrenches from some other companies. Most of the people I notice reporting good results using impact drivers in the lag bolt thread are using those brands. On the flip side here or there manufacturers may sell really small impact wrenches just for working in tight spaces and those may not be as strong. So if it looks really small or runs a lower voltage (4 to 12 volts) it may not be so advantageous.

[Ratty]

Thanks Kenshiro. I plan to buy a name brand when they all go on sale next month.

[Kenshiro]

Thanks Kenshiro. I plan to buy a name brand when they all go on sale next month.

Well...I hope i’m not influencing anything into any sort of name brand this-or-that especially on a Burning Man forum. Even if sometimes it can be difficult to avoid in the “real” world. FWIW, if this was purely for the purposes of this one utility and it was going to be for a camp and/or utilized for multiple burns, I would easily take a mainstream brand that was a better-focused product over a “prosumer” company product that was on a great sale but was maybe not perfectly well-suited. That said, there are lots of ways to skin a potato at the end of the day so a lot of people will find a lot of right answers. Some may end up being more fool-proof for a higher percentage of people than others is all.

[Kenshiro]

...the main difference between the 18v and the 20v is that the new 20v is going with the Lithium Ion battery pack vs. the older 18v which uses Nickel Cadmium battery packs, and the two are not interchangeable, thus they emphasize 20v versus 18v to draw a clear distinction...

As far as the yellow company’s products are concerned, pretty much this. A certain level of consideration to marketing and compatibility definitely played into it. Probably mostly marketing. For anyone looking to buy, absolutely zero consideration should be put into whether any given company lists their product as either 18V or 20V.

NiCad cells natively operate at 1.2 volts. It’s just the result of the battery chemistry.

In comparison the chemistry of Lithium ion cells dictate that they natively operate at 3.7-3.8 volts.

The 18 volt format was created by running NiCad cells in series: 15 cells of 1.2 volt NiCad generates 15x1.2 = 18 volts.

Conveniently, 5 cells of Lithium ion cells connected in series generates essentially the same, albeit very slightly more voltage - around 18.5 to 19 volts. The difference is small enough that companies really weren’t going to have to change very much about their design and production going with that format of Lithium batteries.

Most companies just kept the 18 volt moniker when they made the switch to Lithium cells. Dewalt decided to rebadge theirs as 20 volts. It doesn’t matter.

The important thing to understand is they run the same format of 5 Lithium cells in series to generate their operating voltage, which consequently will be the same for all of them no matter how they choose to market their products.

Now playing devil’s advocate, the yellow company *can* sorta justify their rebadging, because if a 5-series Lithium battery is *just* freshly charged and is not putting out any current, a voltmeter will actually read the battery as having a 20 volt charge. This is the same for any 18V Lithium ion battery from any other competitor. They all drop to 18 volts operating voltage as soon as they are outputting sufficient working current.

Two manufacturers list their products as 22 or 24 volt. Those products actually do operate at a higher voltage than the 18- to 20-volt buggers. Not because of any different chemistry, however, but because they use 6 Lithium cells in series as opposed to the 5 everyone else uses. So they’re kinda exceptions, but they still have to operate according the rules dictated by the battery chemistry.

I don’t know if anyone gives a damn about any of that technical stuff, but I figure someone or another might appreciate being assured that they really can feel perfectly chill giving less than two pisses in the wind over the “18vs20” spiel.

[burner von braun]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Kenshiro. I appreciate it.

[fireheadwhale]

Don't forget the batteries go on sale for xmas as well. Maybe score a set for next year, now.

[Kenshiro]

Not sure if this image will show up but it looks like some Home Despots may have Ryobi’s 300ftlb impact wrench with 4Ah battery and charger going for $99. Compared to the listed regular of $179 with frequent online price of $129.

$99 is what their smaller impact driver kit (with correspondingly smaller battery) typically goes for.

I don’t think it’s at every location though and the one I saw it at wasn’t even in their tools section but in the lag bolt aisle (I know, right?). This kit doesn’t even show up online and the battery is different, with current features but styled like their previous generation so I’m not even sure what it is.

[BBadger]

You shouldn't use Photobucket for images on forums anymore. Quite frankly, the site/service can outright die now that they're destroying internet forum history by blocking links to images.

I'll have to see what sales come up at Home Despot though.

[Kenshiro]

You shouldn't use Photobucket for images on forums anymore. Quite frankly, the site/service can outright die now that they're destroying internet forum history by blocking links to images.

I'll have to see what sales come up at Home Despot though.

Yeah, perhaps I should just delete what photos I have there. I hardly ever used it in the first place. Best alternatives?

[BBadger]

You can just attach images to your message in the forum, or use some place like imgur.com.

[Ratty]

Time to start shopping.

[Kenshiro]

2nd image post attempt

This is that $99 Ryobi deal I stumbled on.

I’ll admit, even though I already have an awesome Makita impact wrench, I couldn’t help not get this and will probably mostly leave it in the car in the event of flat tires. I wanted a cheap way into the Ryobi battery platform anyway since they have a glue gun(!) and buffer.

[Ratty]

Ooooo. You're my personal shopper. I'll check out the local store.

[Kenshiro]

Ooooo. You're my personal shopper. I'll check out the local store.

If you don’t immediately see it, as I mentioned a few posts ago it may not be at every location, and they may locate it some random part of the store. I don’t think it’s related to their Black Friday deals because I walked into it several days prior to Thanksgiving.

At $99 I think it’s a steal. Even the frequent-online-reduced price of $129 is pretty solid, although at that price certain other options start to become more competitive IMO.

Also remember this is the impact *wrench*, not the impact *driver* (which looks almost identical). Make sure what you’re looking at has the 1/2” square up front for wrench sockets you see here:



Although the impact driver would probably still work decently well, this impact wrench will make a lot more torque which will help with bigger lags. In theory it could also produce less heat as it will spend less time at its operating limit than an impact driver, which could help make it more efficient and last through more Burns. Plus it comes with a bigger battery which besides storing a much higher capacity will have a lot more kick for this purpose. Good luck.

[Ratty]

Well. Here i am at hd and just talked myself out of the impact wrench. I will buy an impact driver instead because my portable drills all have old batteries. I use a drill all year. The wrench just for bm. It almost had me.

[burner von braun]

[Ratty]

Now who wants to go halves on a box of 18 inchers?

[Captain Goddammit]

That doesn’t quite make sense. An “Impact wrench” IS an “impact driver”.

[Kenshiro]

Nothing wrong with it if you have more utility for it when not at BM. They have some great deals on the impact drivers too.

[Kenshiro]

That doesn’t quite make sense. An “Impact wrench” IS an “impact driver”.

Not exactly, although there’s a LOT of overlap. I explained the difference in a post above somewhere.

[Captain Goddammit]

I did read your post.
They’re both drivers, neither is really a wrench. !t appears you’re calling it one thing or the other based on what socket drive size it is?

[BBadger]

I think I've read that as the distinction as well (other than the size of the tool too). It still seems like it's just a hand-wavy distinction though, since the tool is distinctly different and has little resemblance to either a screwdriver or a wrench, and yet both variants have the same form factor. I'd consider it a wholly different tool type with different parameters.

[Kenshiro]

I did read your post.
They’re both drivers, neither is really a wrench. !t appears you’re calling it one thing or the other based on what socket drive size it is?

It’s just the industry convention. Walk into any store and ask any tool expert for one or the other and they’ll show you entirely separate sets of tools. Or log into any of the online stores and do each search separately. It doesn’t mean you’re wrong pointing out that the fundamental mechanics of how they work is the same, but what they’re generally used for is different, and it *usually* has to do with impact wrenches doing heavier work.

Probably the simplest definition is:

1/4” hex = impact driver

Everything else = impact wrench

“Everything else” usually means 3/8” or 1/2” squares. They attach to wrench sockets and you use them in place of a hand wrench, ergo impact wrench. There’s also 7/16” hex, but because that’s still being used to drive the same things the 3/8” and 1/2” sockets are used for they still call them impact wrenches.

Much less often and kinda confusing, you’ll occasionally see 1/4” squares for small wrench sockets (for really little things...these aren’t going to be any stronger than a typical impact driver in fact they’re often weaker). I’m not sure who thinks that’s a good idea, but they still call them impact wrenches just because they attach to wrench sockets.

[Ratty]

Now I'm bummed. This article says I can't use an impact driver to drill holes or put in screws. (It actually says it's over kill but I get the picture. I KNOW I can't use an impact wrench because there is no way to attach a bit to it. This is way to involved. I laughed out loud when I was in Harbor Freight. They have one for $16 plus tax. (Regularly a million dollars by their accounting..) Nope. I'm pretty sure that's crap.


http://www.thesawguy.com/impact-drivers ... -wrenches/

[Kenshiro]

Now I'm bummed. This article says I can't use an impact driver to drill holes or put in screws. (It actually says it's over kill but I get the picture. I KNOW I can't use an impact wrench because there is no way to attach a bit to it. This is way to involved. I laughed out loud when I was in Harbor Freight. They have one for $16 plus tax. (Regularly a million dollars by their accounting..) Nope. I'm pretty sure that's crap.


http://www.thesawguy.com/impact-drivers ... -wrenches/

Some people say after they get used to it they prefer using their impact drivers as their drills but I don’t see how that’s advantageous. One thing about impact drivers though is they’re so strong that they often negate the need for drills, because they just straight force screws directly into whatever you’re putting them in, no need to drill pilot holes. For small jobs you have to take care not to let it go too fast because they can rapidly burrow smaller screws too far, strip threads, etc.

You say you had old drills though? What make(s)? Some of these manufacturers have kept their batteries compatible for like the last decade, so a new kit with a new battery may let you continue using your old stuff.