What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

[Bob]

My impression is that no other bloc spends more money, buys as many tickets, or gets so much slack year after year from the theme camp department, and yet is so vocal in how they feel so oppressed.

[Tancorix]

My impression is that no other bloc spends more money, buys as many tickets

The rave scene is second only to the art in being one of the primary BM draws.

or gets so much slack year after year from the theme camp department, and yet is so vocal in how they feel so oppressed

One only has to read the Chicken John and Jim Mason threads to see that the artists have definitely trumped the ravers now. With the formation of BORG2 it's not even a close race....the ravers can't even see the dust from the artists as they got blown off the road so to speak.

I travel to BM for many things but the dance music is definitely a major part of it. I hold it and the art as equal in importance. The ravers bitch, they might make a mess, but compared to the artists and their need for DPW supported ASS, I bet their overall impact is a lot less. Don't be so harsh on the ravers. The playa is big enough for all of us.

[Bob]

"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

[spectabillis]

I think most of it is overplayed trash just like any other genre of popular music. Thats not to say I dont like my Kid Koala, Herbaliser, People under the stairs... but I did not think it was an issue when the rave camps were located waaaay the hell off the main playa, before the event was fenced in.

You cant escape it now, and due to the non-directional nature of homemade EMP units, that option is out.

Can you realistically expand the boundaries again without people sneaking through the cracks?

[Fat SAM]

As a dj (of a number of genres of the realm of electronica) and as a raver, and more importantly as a resident of the culturally impoverished vortex that is Reno, I can tell you that one of my favorite, most ultra-wonderful aspects of Burning Man is the fact that at virtually any hour of the day or night I can go listen to and/or dance to any music I wish. I don't have to be spinning to make it happen (like I must here, so often). We have no electronic clubs here and few raves and because of my position in the local rave community here, I'm always playing at them and then going home or off to work or something.

It's wonderful to wake up in the middle of the night or day (or whenever) and wandering off the blue-room and then be distracted on the way back by someone playing something by an artist that I won't hear anywhere else...hearing someone drop some Jeff Mills track or seeing Aaron or Chris Liberator playing...merely by luck and chance. That doesn't happen to me here.

On another level, if I wish, I have the ability at BM to go to CC and listen to some horse-shit drivel knocked out by some "artiste" who has been dubbed worthy to grace the stage and a-rhythmically bang on a drum while he recites Hallmark poetry if I wish. Or perhaps I could wander off to some camp where someone is making music by knocking sticks together while another guy shakes a 5gl. water container filled with beads. Right on. Whatever I want or don't want is there. The wealth of the experience is mine, it comes from within me...Like shame or anger or joy or any other experience, what I get from it is something only I can determine and something only I place on it. Art is perception, not performance or presentation.

On yet another level, it could be argued that Burning Man is a tribal experience. Someone earlier related the pounding of the bass drums to the beating of a human heart...excellent! What a wonderful, positive interpretation! The heart beat-like pounding is something that one can find almost across the board in tribal societies...it can create a sense of unity because it is comparable to a natural sound. The synchopated bass-lines of trance and hard house/NRG are similar to the ebb and flow of breath or of the tides...a very natural rhythm, indeed. These rhythms are intended to place one at a point of unity with one another and with their surroundings and they work that way, quite often. Aesthetic tastes differ, of course, and it would be wonderful if we could all agree unilaterally on some sort of homogenous background music that is acceptable to everyone's sensibilities...I find that when I'm in the mood for melodic pablum, however, I can find it in elevators and fine department stores across the country.

If aesthetic pleasure is a quality of the perceiver, then it is the task of the perceiver to find pleasing quality. If aesthetic pleasure is the task of the creator, then it is the creator's task to provide pleasing output. Since neither of these situations can be fulfilled at all times, a synthesis must be generated in which pleasure is an aspect and responsibilty of both the creator and perceiver. The perceiver should attempt to enjoy and the creator should attempt to please. Music, art, Burning Man, dinner time, life...all of these are like this. Make your own joy.

Peace
SAM

[stuart]

I think that burning man has a tribal aspect as well. For better or for worse the total population has gotten large enough that there are disntinct tribes within the larger community that is BM. Now, what do differing tribes do when resources are limited? They compete. They make war.

[Fat SAM]

What are we competing for, Stu? Space? Some imaginary art boundary? There's no reason to compete. The problem is the perceived stratification that people have. The tribe is the tribe of Burning Man Participants. Crazy people in the desert who are there for a party or for a yoga lesson or for time to paint or for a tan. None of these pursuits need be mutually exclusive. The same can be said for the mutual pursuit of musical appreciation. If you're they're fo music, try to find pleasure in the music provided. If you don't like the music, find pleasure in that which pleases you. Too much focus on "thus and such is ruining my time." This mentality creates the stratification. Someone says, "I'm with you." Now an "us" is formed and conversely, a "them." Us doesn't have to be negative, though...What needs to be redefined is "them." To do that, we redefine both.

To quote Richard Rorty:

"We can always enlarge the scope of "us," by regarding other people, or cultures, as members of the same community of inquiry as ourselves--by treating them as part of the group among whom unforced agreement is to be sought."

[Badger]

Now, what do differing tribes do when resources are limited? They compete. They make war.

Oh, and collectively they tend to leave more shit (MOOP) per square foot than most other camps.

[Fat SAM]

That's not particulary fair, Badger...I saw a number of camps that left HEAPS of moop, literally, who from at the least the superficial aspect, looked like core "Burners." Utilikilts, arty beads and all...Not a stitch of candy or techno in the bunch and it was I, the raver, who picked up after them.

[b00m3rang]

Oh, and collectively they tend to leave more shit (MOOP) per square foot than most other camps.

You could replacae 'ravers' with any ethnic group as the "they" in that sentence, and you would be no less accurate and no more prejudicial.

Ravers are as diverse a group as burners, surely not all burners are outstanding citizens, nor are ravers. But I know ravers that are everywhere from 18 to their 50s, everywhere from naive and arrogant to wise and considerate.

Let's not broadbrush and reinforce cliques.

[Badger]

That's not particulary fair, Badger...I saw a number of camps that left HEAPS of moop, literally, who from at the least the superficial aspect, looked like core "Burners."

As a general statement based in person experience during many years of post-event clean up I'd say it is in fair - and accurate. Of course the above was not meant to be interpreted as a blanket statement. There were camps that left absolutely NO trash. Nothing. And yes, there were camps - particularly around 6:30-7:00 that did leave shit loads of stuff. That too is an unfortunate aspect of hosting cluetards. Given my very anal tendency to mark large camps as waypoints on my GPS I've gathered enough information that information supports my statement. Namely, that using those waypoints as a reference *my* experience has been that a disproportionate amount of remaining MOOP on the playa seems to lie adjacent or directly within the space once occupied by some of the larger rave-based theme camps.

[Fat SAM]

That's a shame. I wish all of the citizens of BRC would be more courteous. It saddens me that one of the groups with which I associate myself has given you that impression. You should know, however, that within the rave community, just as within the Burning Man community or any other sub-culture, there are yahoos. People who are there solely for the spectacle or the intoxication or whatever. I'd like to think that those of us who truly try to embody what the rave movement is about are more responsible.

[stuart]

What are we competing for, Stu?

many, many things. Correct me if I am wrong, but you were a first timer last year and you did not go through the placement process. Going through the registration and placement process is competitive. We compete for space and placement. Actually, this is true whether we register or not. We compete for early arrival status. Big camps often engage in competition for visitors. Placement is critical for success on that front. Just read some of their lists. There are only two precious corners. There is only so much room in center camp. Others compete for funding and placement of art. To wit, borg2. Still others compete for accoustic space. And then there are all the folks competing for booty. There are also much more clear cut examples of competition. Miss BRC for example (the winner of which was from the same locale as the organizers of the event). There is now competition to do fire work in the parade before the burn. There is competition at large sound camps for DJ spots. The resources are limited and many compete for them whether they are aware of it or not.

[Fat SAM]

If people are competing for "good" placement, or for anything for that matter, I'd say they've forgotten something about why it is they like Burning Man in the first place. Unless validation by others is what it is said competitors are after, in which case I'd offer a whole seperate world of advice.

No. I wasn't a first-timer. It was my second time. Still a newb, to be certain, but I don't think that should invalidate my points (which I understand is not what you said). Thank you for elucidating the subject.

[b00m3rang]

I'd like to think that those of us who truly try to embody what the rave movement is about are more responsible.

You know it's true. At a forest party that I did sound for, after the cops showed up, broke up the party, ticked me, and left... I stuck around and picked up the (very few) pieces of trash that were left in the campground before leaving. I could have just taken off.

At the first desert party I went to in '98, the people throwing the party handed out trash bags to those of us who were left at sunrise, and we picked up all the trash at the site including most of the shotgun shells and trash that was there when we arrived. Most of the people I party with have this attitude. Some don't give a shit.

[Fat SAM]

All you can do is try to spread that mentality. Frankly, I feel the same way about the drugs that are so common to our kind. I try to promote drug free raving (and yes, I practice what I preach) at every turn. I think that we need to do all we can to improve our standing in the public eye, because the negative press and public opinion is killing raving. There's a RAVE act for goodness' sake...And sure, it's supposed to affect all music performance venues, but that's bullshit. Show me a Jimmy Buffet concert where there isn't someone smoking a doob...Bill Graham presents will never see a show busted but Disco Donny goes to PRISON!?!?! Come on...It's our fault, though. Completely.

Rave responsibly. Pass it on.

[stuart]

forgotten something about why it is they like Burning Man in the first place

the implication here is that we all go for the same reasons you do. It's the dangerous 'nature of burning man' territory.

The desire for more space or good placement need not be due to the desire for validation from others though it certainly is in many cases. You need enough space for your people and all your crap. Space is limited. Last year I wanted esplanade space because I wanted the ability to view my piece from a distance. Esplanade space is limited. I competed for it via the registration process. And yes, I wanted other folks to see my work. Why would you ever go to the hassle of DJing outside of your bedroom if you did not care about the participation of others in your work? Why would anyone go to the hassle of dragging their work to the playa? Why did you schedule time to spin in my camp if you did not care about these things?

[Fat SAM]

Why would you ever go to the hassle of DJing outside of your bedroom if you did not care about the participation of others in your work? Why would anyone go to the hassle of dragging their work to the playa? Why did you schedule time to spin in my camp if you did not care about these things?

A good case in point is a party at which I'm playing on the Saturday...The promoter overbooked - there are more dj's than there is time to play - and so a number of us lost deck time. I like to play in front of people. It is gratifying that people enjoy what I do. I'm not going to fight for more time, though, or for a more prime time slot. I'm simply compressing the set that I wanted to play into what I think is the minimal possible expression of what I wanted to convey and going with that. The point is, I'm happy with what I've got and I'm going to make due with the resources allocated me.

And rest assured, I don't think that everyone goes out to the playa for the same reason. The purpose of art is to be shared, certainly, if, as I said earlier, art exists in its interpretation. If you go out to share your art, great! Remember that being a displayed artist is a priviledge, though, not an entitlement, and that while you want your art to be displayed prominently, you can be happy to know that even if you reach only a small audience, there will still be people there to appreciate it.

As for people and all your crap...the same rule applies. Keep it tight. Work with what you have. Be Zen - all things are subject to change; roll with it.

[stuart]

of course you make do with what you have. If the playa teaches any lesson to me it is not to get caught up in ideals. Still, you do the best you can to get the closest you can to an ideal.

Remember that being a displayed artist is a priviledge

quite true. How do we aquire that priviledge? Through competition.

The gratification part is oddly mercurial to me. Do we get more joy out of 300 people dancing in camp (it was spotless when we left, badger) or from the one person who relates how the experience touched them?

[jbelson]

It's funny that this thread started about Ravers and how they dont embody the "Core" values of Burningman. Yet the topic itself is really against the core values of BM. Competition and spectating. It's really saying 'bring less of what you brought,and more of what I want you to bring'. The person saying that they wish there was more jazz should bring some more jazz. Have a jazz camp. I'm sure there have been jazz camps and Zydeco camps. Maybe they weren't that succesful? Maybe people thought it more of a novelty?
If people really hated the rave scene @ BM, it would die out very quickly. The thing is that people seem to love dancing all day and all night long, cause I saw them coing it all week. It's part of the celebration.
And as far as competition, it sounds like your there for the wrong reasonn. It's not like somebody wins at the end if more people saw they're art. I dont think there are trophies for best use of esplanade space.

As far as moop. I'm sure there were a bunch of art camps that left their shit scattered about. The rave camps were just more visible and reconizable.

But remember, people want to dance.

[theCryptofishist]

So maybe the Zydeco and Polka camps should have dance lessons once a day.

[ThePikey]

Metaphor time:

Would it be more or less accurate to say that the prevalence of electronic music on the playa is akin to Top 40 radio stations? One type of music is 'popular' with the largest demographic, so all the major broadcasters (sound camps) are playing that one type, with relatively little diversity.

[Fat SAM]

Actually, there was a tremendous amount of diversity, but only within the MASSIVE umbrella heading of electronica...I heard techno, tekno (a german variant), drum n bass, jump up, detroit techno, minimal and IDM, chill, ambient, downtempo house, island-centric Goa, psy, melodic trance, progressive trance, SUPER funky house breaks (I heard someone play a remix of the theme from Kill Bill on the night of the Burn that was spectacular!), spacey house, tech-house...Didn't hear any hard NRG - although I played some one night...heard some really tight, techy jungle, acid jazz, jazz/disco, disco (what about that? Disco is heavy on the electronic tip, but everyone forgets that) I heard industrial and goth at Thunderdome. Would you call Skinny Puppy or the Electric Hellfire Club "techno?" I would hope not! It goes on and on. Granted, you have to be kind of a conniseur of that breed of music to have the ear to understand it all, but when you do, you discover that it's so diverse that when you really start trying to lump it together, even under the heading of electronica, it's starts to slip. There are simply too many hybrids. What about hip hop? I can't stand most of it (though I do like some underground hip hop), even though it consists almost entirely of synthetic beats/instruments. Is that electronica? There was a great range of music out there, both synthetic and organic.

The camp across the street from ours played a wonderful mix of organic and electronic music all day and all night. I listened to Phish and JA back to back with easily digested electronica like MOBY and then Joy Division would come on and then New Order. Can I call that EDM? New Order was a founding part of rave culture, but I wouldn't call it techno...Rachel found time to bitch about that music, but only because it wouldn't stop (but she simply endured) - they played it at all hours at ridiculous dB levels. I recall one night being awakened to Perry Farrell screeching out the chorus to "Three Days." It was a part of the experience and I wouldn't have changed a moment of it.

And like Cryptofishist said, for more diversity, increase your push. Get a massive system, load it up with polka and zydeco and ranchero (PLEASE RANCHERO!!! I wanted some so badly) and people will notice. They may not like it, but isn't that what we're talking about people having the freedom to do? Please, load up and I guarantee that at least I'll be there, dancing my ass off to Ry Cooder and Frankie Yankovich and His Yanks.
Peace[/i]

[Mister Jellyfish Mister]

Metaphor time:

Would it be more or less accurate to say that the prevalence of electronic music on the playa is akin to Top 40 radio stations? One type of music is 'popular' with the largest demographic, so all the major broadcasters (sound camps) are playing that one type, with relatively little diversity.

That's an interesting thought. Could it also be a method of practicing exclusion within an inclusive society.

[stuart]

sounds like your there for the wrong reasonn

did you want to tell me what the right reason was? carefull with that axe eugene. Did you want to tell me how you are more burny than I am? Did you want to tell me the true spirit of burning man?

It's simple, there are limited resources there. For example, more than two camps want the ten or two esplanade corner. Camps compete for those spots. Did ya think the placers used the i-ching or rolled dice? Have you ever registered a camp? Look at the wording on the form WRT esplanade placement.

There can be competition without a shiny trophy being the end result. The prize for doing a decent esplanade camp is being able to do it again. Weren't you the guy who started the 'what's your favorite camp' thread after the event last year?

[ThePikey]

Would it be more or less accurate to say that the prevalence of electronic music on the playa is akin to Top 40 radio stations? One type of music is 'popular' with the largest demographic, so all the major broadcasters (sound camps) are playing that one type, with relatively little diversity.

That's an interesting thought. Could it also be a method of practicing exclusion within an inclusive society.

I don't think of it as exclusivity as much as a Democracy of the Marketplace type of decision.

Let's make up some hypothetical numbers: Say at any given moment 45% of Burners want to listen to some form of techno, 20% would like classic rock, 20% want indie music, 12% would dig mellow jazz, 3% just want silence. You are trying to select your playlist. Unless you have strong personal feelings on the subject, you will select the genre that will appeal to the largest audience, just as radio stations go after the largest marketshare. Consequently, all sound camps (well most anyways) are heavy on electronica.

And the niche markets go wanting.

(On a side note: No, I don't particularly listen to the radio, how could you tell?)

[stuart]

I don't think it quite works like that.

I think it's more like people do stuff at burning man that they want to do or have a facility for. The 'rave' folks have access to and ability with sound reenforcement, DJs, and experience throwing a particular type of party. Folks in the Jazz world do small cafes and very little sound reenforcement, if any. So, who on the playa are you gonna hear? My neighbors, the KSVERT radio station, this past year are a great example. These guys have experience doing live sound and low power radio. They clearly love it and so that's what they do on the playa. They don't do 'rave' music but they do do loud. I think they would do it weather they had an audience or not. It's just what they like to do.

[b00m3rang]

Unless you have strong personal feelings on the subject, you will select the genre that will appeal to the largest audience

I couldn't disagree more with this comparison. If you didn't have strong personal feelings for a certain genre, you wouldn't become a DJ. You wouldn't spend thousands (or dozens of thousands) of dollars on records and equipment, and spend hundreds of hours in record stores across the country and online to find the best tracks.

A dance DJ is not the same thing as a radio DJ. You're not just playing one song after another that you think are the most popular songs (one would hope). You're mixing elements from different songs and different genres to create a new work of art. You can take people on a journey by, for example, starting out with a dark, hypnotic sound... moving on to a harder more energetic beat, and then to a happy euphoric climax, and maybe a downtrodden yet optimistic denouement. It's not the same as musicianship, it's not the same as a radio DJ, it's an artform somewhere in between.

[ThePikey]

Actually, there was a tremendous amount of diversity, but only within the MASSIVE umbrella heading of electronica...

I won't argue this, but (for the sake of argument) one could say that pop music is very diverse. There's boy bands, there's divas... etc. What I'm saying is that it's a niche. A very large one to be sure, but a niche all the same.

And lest I give you the wrong impression, don't think that I am all 'anti-raver' (or whateverthehell). I *do* like it, even if I have no clue about the various distinctions you mentioned. But I also think that it is so overwhelmingly prevalent that I feel like I'm getting fed a steady diet of techno on the playa. I'm not getting a healty balanced diet with all the food groups, so to speak.

And like Cryptofishist said, for more diversity, increase your push. Get a massive system, load it up with polka and zydeco and ranchero... and people will notice. They may not like it, but isn't that what we're talking about people having the freedom to do?

I agree totally. Yes, this is a participatory event, and if you don't like something, Change It! Offer some alternatives.

Regrettably, I do not have the massive system you speak of or the discretionary income to purchase same. *shrug* For my part, I'm trying to think of some way to at least encourage or support a wider variety of music on the playa, but am coming up empty...

You seem to be offering up some more or less well-thought-out analyses and critiques... what would YOUR recommendations be on that?

[ThePikey]

Unless you have strong personal feelings on the subject, you will select the genre that will appeal to the largest audience

A dance DJ is not the same thing as a radio DJ. You're not just playing one song after another that you think are the most popular songs (one would hope).

Oh, agreed. People running turntables *do* have very distinct preferences. My analogy at that point was more on the order of 'this is a family-values oriented outfit, my radio station will play Christian Rock even though that won't bring in the most listeners'. I was trying to illustrate that point from the other side.

(Witness! The weakness of metaphor!)