is the gifting philosophy sustainable?

lorenzoperoxide · Post by **lorenzoperoxide** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:19 am

the art of burningman is incredibly provocative, and the community, fellowship and emotional support is comforting to a misfit like myself. nowhere else on earth do i fit in as well. but the thing that moves me most is the feeling that people are nice for the sake of niceness. the motive is not a tip, or a future back scratching. merely the pleasure of sharing openly and trusting that all is well and will continue to be well if all participate. i wonder if the intent is to change society, or reality camp, and live in this fashion everyday. is it possible? isn,t it a form of socialism, where the weak can actually prey on the strong, and the strong eventually resent having to pull too much weight? i am sure it is possible to arrive at burningman naked and leave ten pounds heavier, with a car, bicycle, wardrobe and someone else,s squeeze, a haircut and shampoo, and a thoroughly new psychedelic perspective on life. all without having lifted a finger to contribute anything or having worked a day to earn a thing. i would be interested in hearing anyone,s well thought out conclusions on this subject. also i would like to thank all the people who do work so hard on this amazing life changing event. i see many people working really hard and imagine their off playa efforts are even more demanding. true heroes work to create and sustain this counter culture cultural event.

lorenzo peroxide · Post by **lorenzo peroxide** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:28 am

by the way, i,m not a guest, i live here

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:45 am

live where, e-playa? dewd, how do you fit into those tiny boxes?

the princess is puzzled

Tiara · Post by **Tiara** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:03 am

lorenzoperoxide wrote:i wonder if the intent is to change society, or reality camp, and live in this fashion everyday. is it possible? isn,t it a form of socialism, where the weak can actually prey on the strong, and the strong eventually resent having to pull too much weight?

I don't have any well-thought out conclusions to your question, but I've wondered the same thing, and think this could be a very worthwhile discussion.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:27 am

Look at it from the point of view that the Gift Economy thing, at its root, is meant as a parody of the trappings of "real" society.

Even if your "gift" is simply singing, dancing, and dropping your pants, there is still some real-money cost in affording you the opportunity to get to the event and do your schtick.

So, it's really no different from whatever you do back home. Grab your bullhorn, young man, young woman -- go out in your culdesac, drop trou, and do a recitation of The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. It's a gift if you can pull it off without even thinking.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 11:07 am

Bob wrote: Even if your "gift" is simply singing, dancing, and dropping your pants, there is still some real-money cost in affording you the opportunity to get to the event and do your schtick.
.

wait - *my* gift is dropping my pants.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:15 pm

princess strych-9 wrote:
Bob wrote: Even if your "gift" is simply singing, dancing, and dropping your pants, there is still some real-money cost in affording you the opportunity to get to the event and do your schtick.
.
wait - *my* gift is dropping my pants.

...and what a delightful gift it is.

lorenzo peroxide · Post by **lorenzo peroxide** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:52 pm

bob, i don,t see it as a parody. that is why the barter thing is not good enough. it has been attempted to raise the conciousness of the playa above that of society in general in a " put your best foot forward and see what benefits we all derive" kind of way.

it is altruistic, and beautiful, but it lacks an ongoing motivation to produce and give. ultimately, i believe it will reduce the quality of life and over all productivity. i am not sure of that, therefore i ask your opinion.

how about we start giving things of value? maybe some true wisdom, or healthy food, or actual emotional or physical support, or friendship beyond the playa. there must be something better than plastic "burningman 2004" necklaces and stickers that i can fill my vehicle with next year.

if a non-producer leaves the playa with something of true value, something that makes him/her think for the rest of the year, maybe that gift will have social value of astronomical proportions. and if the producers receive a gift of deeper relevance, maybe they will be inspired and supercharged, and avoid the cynical bitterness some are sure to feel at seeing their art missing it,s mark, or being vandalized or vomited on.

tiara- thank you

princess- keep your pants on, or e me pix!

Booker · Post by **Booker** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:53 pm

>>there must be something better than plastic "burningman 2004" necklaces and stickers<<

Do those tchotchkes really have much of an effect? Some nice people gave me lovely necklaces (Hi Pets, Spokes, nipples!). I like them, and I like the kindly spirit in which they were given.

But that ain't the end of the gift economy. Whatever people give of themselves with the intention of enriching others' lives if a valuable gift to the community. My necklaces made me smile. Others seemed grateful for my mojitos, comments, conversation at various times. I was grateful for much art that people put out there, also music, also conversation, etc. One of the best gifts I received was leftovers from the neighbors' dinner, when I'd been workin' all day and wasn't lookin' forward to messing with food prep.

That sorta thing happens all over the place at BRC and makes it a good place to go. If no one brought art or fed their neighbors or poured booze or told jokes, the community would be poorer. If everyone kept careful track of their contributions and demanded equitable payback, they'd have the time & effort & psychic overhead of all that calculation, and generosity in general would diminish.

ERGO: The generous spirit of giving creates happy surprises all over BRC. Experiencing or witnessing others' selfless generosity increases the desire to give rather than any desire to consume (IMO) and enriches life in the community as a whole. It's not only self-sustaining, it's self-increasing.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:55 pm

Well, my gift would be mercy, I guess. The radical type.

Borris · Post by **Borris** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:35 pm

The whole Idea of a gift economy isn't to expect a gift in return.

I render services or do things or help people out without expecting any return therefore it's not a gift economy since there is nothing economical about it. it's nice to recive gifts, I'd rather see people make more meaningfull gifts at lesser ammounts then loads of trinkets that they bought for .49$

My gifts this year were Mix CD's that i made (i had about 40 CD's of 2 different sets) and small olive oil bottles (to go on with the religeous theme) I also gave away quite alot of beer, cigaretes and various other alcoholic stuff. and my food went into a comunal kitchen.

PJ · Post by PJ » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:37 pm

princess strych-9 wrote:*my* gift is dropping my pants.

If you never pull them up again, that's truly the gift that keeps on giving.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:13 pm

pj, my pants are off to you, always

III · Post by **III** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:52 pm

>The whole Idea of a gift economy isn't to expect a gift in return.

the other part of the Whole Idea is that gifts shouldn't be expected at all, in the first place.

or maybe i'm wrong. expecting gifts seems to be part of the spirit of burning man.

Chai Guy · Post by **Chai Guy** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:59 pm

Great question here - Gift Sustainability!

I think the obvious answer is NO (but there is hope).

I have taking this idea "Off Playa" with mixed results.

At one gathering word got out that I was giving away "stuff" and people circled me in droves, they weren't sure what I was giving away, if they needed or even wanted what I was giving away, they just new I had "FREE STUFF".

At another non-comercial event I had set up a little chai refreshment station and was gifting out chai. Because it was very cold outside I was heating the chai up in a large stainless steel container over a portable stove. I had a special container that I poured the chai into that allowed it to be served efficently. When I went to my car to get something for a second, I returned to find people dipping their cups (and their dirty fingers) into the large stainless steel container trying to fill up their cups. I explained to them that their behavior was not only rude but unsanitary, it didn't seem to register with them, after all I was just "giving it away".

That's the bad, now the good-

During that same event a little girl and her father approached me, the little girl had collected a bag full of "pretty" rocks and was gifting them out to people. Her dad explained that it was entirely her idea.

After receiving some chai a woman explained she felt bad for not having a gift in return, I tried to explain that I wasn't looking for anything in return, just that she enjoy her beverage. She reached into her pocket and pulled out a small polished stone surrounded with metal work forming a heart. She explained what this stone meant to her and how it had helped her through so many difficult times, she gifted me the stone, which was incredible, but was more about the human interaction and the sharing of her story that touched me.

There are givers and there are takers, and there are some people who have just never thought about it before. I love gifting to people and watching the lightbulb go off over their head, that's the best gift of all!

Post by **actiongrl** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:24 pm

>expecting gifts seems to be part of the spirit of burning man

I have, I think, met the people you're talking about, but I wouldn't call that attitude the majority, would you?

I don't even think about that stuff until someone hands me something and I'm all gobsmacked that they wanted to share something with me.
I have never bartered for anything there, though. I've surely gifted back on occasion, usually in the form of favors or assistance, but sometimes a choice from a pocket full of my ex boyfriend's really offensive buttons.

We ran around a huge concert once (I think it was Weezer at the Concord Pavilion) giving away the same buttons. The puzzled looks on people's faces were fascinating. MOst of them thought we were asking for money for the buttons, and all of them thought we were kinda weird for giving them away. Granted, the buttons were totally off color, but people seemed mostly flummoxed that we would be giving them away for free. They kept wanting to know <i>why....</i>

I think that the feeling of giving away or receiving a gift is a reward that does contribute something to both parties, something that one could call a "return on investment" which keeps the "economy" stimulated. I think of it more in terms of circuitry (since human experience is based on energies). If I give a gift, I'm putting out my energy, and when someone enjoys receiving it and lets me know it, the circuit is completed. As a former retail slut I could go on for days about the kind of energy you get from someone when you sell them something....and a barter exchange to me feels a bit more energetically fulfilling, but not really by very much. I get a lot out of giving of myself, and it does tend to be its own reward (though feedback is even better.)

The problem is that you can only feed a community on social capital for so long, and then someone's got to go earn some money. My ex roommate used to call money "Fun Tickets". You have these tickets to share with each other, and when they're gone, we go get more. If one of us was a little low, the other would buy the beer and we'd sort it out later. Works great in a community of two...but socialism is another story altogether.

Not sure where I'm going with all this.

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:53 pm

actiongrl wrote:< . My ex roommate used to call money "Fun Tickets". You have these tickets to share with each other, and when they're gone, we go get more. If one of us was a little low, the other would buy the beer and we'd sort it out later. Works great in a community of two...but socialism is another story altogether>

ha, so did one of my ex boyfriends!

it's an interesting way to look at commerce - money has no intrinsic value. it's only value is what we as a society deem it to be. after all, paper money might as well be toilet paper.

III · Post by **III** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:48 pm

>I have, I think, met the people you're talking about, but I wouldn't call that attitude the majority, would you?

i find it's not usually so explicit. it more often comes out as "you'd do this if you were a good community memeber".

it manifests itself in everything from "i need water" to "you should have made the carbq bigger so that we can put more people around it" to "some theme camps are unapproachable" to "i can't ask you whether i can steal your soul because it might ruin my shot" to "hey, it's a trashcan, that means everyone can use it, right?"

i'm willing to admit that the majority of people don't actually feel and act this way. but it seems that the portion of people who do is large enough that it's a noticeable part of the culture.

clandyone · Post by **clandyone** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:24 pm

AG, was your ex volunteering for Recycle Camp this year? A cute boy came by our camp with one of those ubiquitous shopping carts, about halfway through the week. After we loaded him up with cans, he handed out offensive buttons. Mine says "I [heart] beating hippies". It is still pinned to my water-bottle cozy, and I love it dearly.

Post by **actiongrl** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:42 pm

Yep. That's him. At the time, he wasn't my ex yet.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:40 pm

But he's cute and he's your ex now, right?

Oh, wait, this isn't the "fuck" thread...

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:47 pm

This was down at the very end of the threads, looking lonely, and should be bumped... soooooo..... bumped it is...

BTW... Gifting is not dead... but there are some people (as mentioned in some of these posts) who should be gifted a rather firm, and swift, kick to the cohones... Otherwise, gift when you can, but use discretion... gifting can turn into co-dependency... "Sure, I'll gift you the dinner that I just cooked, if you gift me $20..."

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:49 pm

wise as usual Sam........can I buy you a fresh cigar?

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:52 pm

cowboyangel wrote:wise as usual Sam........can I buy you a fresh cigar?

Yes, and I will gift you one right back... with a shot of Jager... cool?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:54 pm

si senior...cubanos?

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:02 pm

Cubanos work quite well... enjoy, Compadre...

By the way... How come you can't get scotch online in the US. I want to give it away... doesn't that count for something?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:57 pm

just wait Sam. the republicrap government is changing everything. While you're at it better convert to Christianity (rymes with insanity)

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:10 pm

By the grace of Chthuluu, I will never have to... I hope!

robbidobbs · Post by **robbidobbs** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:01 am

Gifting is what I do from the time I wake up to the time I fall asleep. The Pottie Project IS my gift to the Community. If I'm blowing by your camp, slightly winded from dealing with yet another potty-drama event, them PLEASE DEER GAWD, GIVE ME A FUCKING BEER if I ask to sit at your camp for a breather. I have a good story, put on a decent show. I'm a cheap date, I'll entertain the FUCK out of you for an average of 10 minutes, and then you can go back to watching the world go by.

People give me stuff all the time, and beer if they got it. Nice people, these Burning Man folks.

Make my day, feed me beer!

is the gifting philosophy sustainable?

is the gifting philosophy sustainable?

Re: is the gifting philosophy sustainable?

lorenzo peroxide

am I hanging out in the wrong camp?

Re: am I hanging out in the wrong camp?

Cute boy