Burning 2019-2028 Plan - Your input requested (long)

[motskyroonmatick]

Things changed after the population cap was hit and tickets were limited.

It was a really great thing to have the only limit to attending be whether you could get your shit together enough to attend and pull off your gift.

It would be a great thing if we could make a leap in transportation that was still based in RSR so we could raise the population enough to get back to where people don't have to acquire tickets through the current system of being connected, work or blind luck.

[Papa Bear]

It would be a great thing if we could make a leap in transportation that was still based in RSR

RSR? I'm not familiar with that one.

Rural State Roads?
Rock Solid Results?
Required Supply Rate?
Rabbits, Squirrels, and Rattlesnakes?

[gaminwench]

Radical Self Reliance?

[Papa Bear]

Radical Self Reliance?

D'oh... and I miss the blindingly obvious.

Now that I think about it, I have seen that acronym used before, I was just thinking it was something specifically transportation related.

[Captain Goddammit]

Radical Self Reliance used to mean - and still should mean - showing up prepared as if no one else was going to show up.

I’ve done that every time I’ve ever been there.

How many people riding the bus actually do that?

If everyone rode on the bus, what would they be coming to see and do? Sit around in a hot tent eating protein bars?

[Papa Bear]

Thanks for responding, Captain. Apologies in advance for the length of my reply, I'm not sure how to make it more concise and still be clear.

Radical Self Reliance used to mean - and still should mean - showing up prepared as if no one else was going to show up.

That's remarkably close to what I tell people they should do - but as phrased, I think your definition may be a little too stringent. For the sake of clarifying exactly what you mean and perhaps finding common ground, let's consider the scenario where a group of 5 friends decides to go to Burning Man.

AFAIK, it's always been acceptable to work together with your camp to get your stuff out there - i.e. if one of the 5 friends had a pickup truck but only one free passenger seat, and another had a car with room for 2 passengers but not all their gear, it was fine for people to pile into the two shared vehicles, with 2 people putting most of their stuff in the truck but riding in the car. Obviously, the ones in the car need to make sure that if they get in ahead of the truck they're still covered for as long as the delay might be, but that's their problem to solve.

It's not necessary for each of them to drive a different car in loaded with their own gear, they just have to have planned out how to get it there, and how to survive until it does (which may mean packing everything up and leaving the event if the truck for some reason doesn't make it).

I don't have any problem with that - as long as they are taking care of their needs, they're being self-reliant. Perhaps not purely so as they are relying on each other, but certainly with respect to relying on other participants at the event.

Does that meet your definition of self reliance? If not, we may just never see eye to eye on this, and the rest of my reply probably isn't going to be of interest.

Assuming we do agree, though, let's take it a step further. Let's say one of the 5 is an awesome cook. He volunteers to prep the food for the group, as long as the others pitch in to help cover the cost of the food and help heat it up/clean up afterward on playa. It all gets frozen, stored in one cooler with dry ice, and comes in on the truck.

Again assuming the group coming in the car has enough non-perishable food with them to keep alive until the truck arrives, is there really a problem with that? Does everyone have to bring their own food in their own separate cooler to qualify as self reliant? Again, I don't think so, but you may disagree.

If we can agree that said group of 5 is "doing it right", then it's a matter of figuring out where the line falls (if it falls anywhere) between that little group of 5 friends and some big PnP camp. I certainly do think that there *is* a line, but I'm uncertain how to clearly and unambiguously describe it - it's kind of the old "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" sort of thing.

To me, the line has definitely been crossed when people aren't putting in effort themselves or putting their own stuff on the aforementioned truck, and are just paying to have someone else do the planning and provide survival items for them. Radical self reliance should mean something more than throwing money at other people to make it possible for you to survive.

So when I see a camp advertize that "for an extra $200 you can stay in one of our hexayurts and won't need your own tent" or something similar, I cringe. When I hear of people trying to find a camp with a meal plan so they don't have to bring any food, I get irritated. That's the kind of stuff I see as damaging to our culture and a failure in self-reliance. I repeatedly tell people that even if they join a camp, they need to ensure they have their survival needs covered, so that anything provided by the camp is a luxury.

As long as someone does bring what they need to survive (or sends on the truck) and participates somehow in the camp prep, I don't really care if their money also helps provision the camp with private portopotties, a shower structure, or a gourmet meal plan. The first two are luxuries, not necessities, and as long as said person brought "backup" survival food in case the meal plan goes south, they're just fine. It's their burn, they can plan it how they like. Do you feel differently?

I also think the line has been crossed at the point a camp pays staff/"sherpas" to deliver those services on playa. If you're delivering services for pay, rather than just as your contribution to your camp, that seems like it is outside the spirit of the event. I do allow for a little gray area on this one - for example, I don't mind the rest of a camp waiving "camp dues" for someone who is putting in a metric ton of work, or even the camp covering some or all of their ticket, but that's about it. Helping build or run camp shouldn't be a way of earning a living.

Are we on the same page so far, or have we already diverged?

I’ve done that every time I’ve ever been there.

How many people riding the bus actually do that?

I actually do know of one who did bring absolutely everything he needed - if he wasn't self reliant, it was only because he wouldn't be able to just drive his own car off the playa at any time. But I'll freely admit that he's a distinct outlier that isn't representative of typical ridership (and since he now takes advantage of the prepurchased water fill at the bus depot anyway it's a moot point).

Within the bounds of the "shared truck" model I just described, though, every person I know that has ridden the bus has done so. For example, my wife - most of her stuff comes out with me in my vehicle during build week. She knows well before she gets on the plane to Reno that I've made it there with her gear, so she knows she can come in on the bus with just the basics she needs to survive until she reaches our camp (plus some buffer for unexpected issues). Her tent is even set up when she gets there, because I'm already living in it. Once she gets there, she helps complete the camp setup, helps run the camp, sticks around to help strike, and does a ton of ranger hours in between. Some years there's an art contribution as well.

Now obviously, I don't know everyone that rides the bus. Neither do you. It could be that the vast majority of people on the bus don't even fit the "shared truck" model, or it could be that the true sparkleponies are a minority. But I do know that at least some of them fall in the "shared truck" category.

So if your definition is strict enough to exclude shared trucks, then sure, you're right about bus riders. They wouldn't be self-reliant - though neither would a ton of the people who show up in cars or RVs, or any of the people from the east coast who buy space in a shared shipping container. But if that's your definition, I think the bus is only a symptom of a much larger and more pervasive issue.

On the other hand, if you're cool with the "share a truck" model, then those other riders I mentioned absolutely are self-reliant. The only difference I see between them and the folks in my original example is that they rode on a bus rather than in someone's passenger car. All of those folks also contributed in other ways on playa - building art, helping to make theme camps happen, volunteering for city departments. They didn't show up to spectate.

Now, do I agree that there are people coming in on the bus who aren't prepared, who are relying on camps that have "crossed the line", and who aren't going to do anything but spectate? Absolutely! I also believe you'll find them coming in RVs and personal cars as well.

If you want to argue that the bus is bad for the event overall because it enables those sparkleponies, fine. You're going to have to work a bit to convince me that sparkleponies are the majority, and that the bus is actually encouraging such behavior rather than just shifting those people out of road-clogging vehicles they'd otherwise use, but I'm open to that. It's a perfectly reasonable discussion to have.

What I'm challenging are the hyperbolic, absolutist statements that everyone who comes in from a distance and everyone who rides the bus is an unprepared spectator. If you said "some" are, I'd agree. If you said "most are", I'd want some evidence, but I'd be willing to listen. If your definition of "self reliant" excludes the shared truck model, then I'll even concede that by your definition, they are all "unprepared" - but I still won't agree that they are then all just spectators and that all of their work and contributions count for naught. That just doesn't follow.

If everyone rode on the bus, what would they be coming to see and do? Sit around in a hot tent eating protein bars?

You're right - that wouldn't be much of an event. And if you really are against the "friends sharing a truck" model, I can understand why you think the bus is a bad idea. But I think most of us see a whole lot of interesting territory between "everyone riding the bus" and "nobody rides the bus".

[Token]

PB, these scenarios can be sliced and diced any which way.

The issue is a complex system. You cannot model it with such simplifications and expect to see anything other than small details.

You have to consider the whole system.

With tickets scarce, an evolved caste system (directed sales), large investment by the privileged caste, you end up with a consumer driven model.

We are way past resource pooling, community effort and the likes and into good old capitalism of supply and demand. Free market economy baby!

So if you want a guaranteed ticket, you gotta run a themecamp.

But tickets are scarce and your 100 person themecamp only gets 50 tickets.

Now your themecamp costs double.

So you get more people who got tickets in random ways.

But the BORG wants to be big and badass so they run a bus service.

And you get 30000 virgins each year looking for The Disneyland tour package.

Ok, I jumped a few steps to reach old Walt World but you get the point.

It is not necessarily a failing with the clueless masses that are less than RSR.

It is definitely a failing with the BORG that ran a perfectly good experiment in temporary society for over 20 years and learned fucking nothing.

Instead they brought in a board from the tech industry and applied run of the mill corporate thinking to the problem. They are trying to solve demand by packing everyone into busses. Yay, sell more, grow.

So we have a run of the mill privileged class, thick old-boys network, mass transit with no solution for survival other than a water option, and a mass of humanity that is ill prepared for any participation.

Bigger didn’t get better. Just more arduous.

[Captain Goddammit]

Papa Bear I think we sort of basically agree. I sort of skimmed over all of that, it’s a very good thing to condense things to fewer lines!

Let me put it this way: there are people who, If they didn’t show up, would mean the camp didn’t exist or would be greatly impacted.
Then there are the other people who, if they didn’t show up, wouldn’t really have much effect on the camp and whatever “Burning Man” it helped create.

Very few people riding in on the bus are in that first group.

I get it about a group of friends pooling resources, my issue is the Org trying to increase the ratio of fly-in and bus-ins, which will have more people not bringing the cool stuff. It’s gettung further and further away from what made it so cool and unique.

[Papa Bear]

The issue is a complex system. You cannot model it with such simplifications and expect to see anything other than small details.

I agree it's complex. But I'm not trying to model the entire system - I'm just trying to work out where the Captain and I actually have common ground.

[Papa Bear]

Papa Bear I think we sort of basically agree. I sort of skimmed over all of that, it’s a very good thing to condense things to fewer lines!

Yeah, that's something I find difficult. Brevity is not my strong point.

With apologies to Blaise Pascale: if I'd had more time, I'd have written a shorter post.

Let me put it this way: there are people who, If they didn’t show up, would mean the camp didn’t exist or would be greatly impacted.
Then there are the other people who, if they didn’t show up, wouldn’t really have much effect on the camp and whatever “Burning Man” it helped create.

Very few people riding in on the bus are in that first group.

I agree, to an extent. Someone coming in on the bus is usually going to have less impact on a camp that someone who was there during build week to assemble it. In a number of cases I've seen, though, that effort flips around during the event - the builders get to take things a little easier, and the later arrivals pick up more of the job of running things. They're also critical to camp strike, which is far more difficult than setup in every camp I've been part of.

I also agree that there are plenty of people in many big theme camps who are, at most, doing a few camp shifts sweeping moop or serving drinks or something similar. That has some value, but it's certainly not driving new creative and interesting stuff. All too often, the only reason the camp wants them is to spread the cost out among more people.

I get it about a group of friends pooling resources, my issue is the Org trying to increase the ratio of fly-in and bus-ins, which will have more people not bringing the cool stuff. It’s gettung further and further away from what made it so cool and unique.

This is where I'm still further apart. I lurk on the list for a couple of other camps (neither of which are PnPs, but one of which is big on communal infrastructure, meals, etc), as well as a few general advice groups (one of which is for overseas burners).

The pattern I see is that 99% of the people in those groups who wind up riding the bus would simply be pooling together and sharing cars if the bus didn't exist. For the first-timers, many of them don't even realize the bus option exists until they're asking for advice on what kind of car to rent. So for that demographic, at least, all the bus is really doing is taking a bunch of cars off of the road to the event. The bus is a nicer way to travel, but it's not that cushy a setup.

It's certainly possible that there are more blatantly PnP-ish camps that use the Burner Express option as a "look how easy it is" recruiting tool. I just haven't seen them. But if that's the group we think is the problem, I think imposing much stricter rules on things like the OSS system would be a far more effective way of addressing the issue than getting rid of the bus.

That all said, I don't think I know anyone who has taken the BxAir option in. That's apparently a completely different demographic. Given the much smaller baggage limits, I'd guess that not many BxAir riders are in those critical roles.

The BxAir program could go away and I wouldn't miss it. But if I were to do anything to the BxBus system, it would be to add a few runs during build week. I think they'd get lots of takers from people who would be there to build anyway, but would also love to give up the hassle of carpooling or renting a car.

[Captain Goddammit]

Well get better at brevity.
If you had a good point in there it was lost. Skimmed over but did. It read and ain’t gonna.

What happens when there’s no more vehicle passes but there’s 30,000 more people that didn’t bring jack shit? I guess you’re gonna try to spin that positive, but unless you make your points in less than 8000 words, I’ll never know or care.

[ken]

Captain for the win.

[Papa Bear]

Well get better at brevity.
If you had a good point in there it was lost. Skimmed over but did. It read and ain’t gonna.

OK, how about this?

- I agree, many people who come in on the bus contribute less in total than those who build camps. But many of them are still significant contributors during the week and during strike.

- The pattern I've seen repeatedly is that the people riding buses would otherwise just be renting or sharing cars. Their participation level is the same (for better and worse). For them, all the bus does is get those cars off the road.

- I won't defend the BxAir. Don't recall knowing anyone who takes it. Seems likely there's a higher percentage of spectators there, and I don't see why the bus isn't enough.

What happens when there’s no more vehicle passes but there’s 30,000 more people that didn’t bring jack shit? I guess you’re gonna try to spin that positive, but unless you make your points in less than 8000 words, I’ll never know or care.

- Not going to bite on the strawman of all those people "not bringing jack shit". Plenty will just have sent stuff on a truck, same as now.

- If the concern is bus/air riders being PnP fodder, then target the damned PnPs directly. OSS seems like the best place to start. Don't let them outsource their build and supplies.

- The other big problem I see is camps recruiting members just to spread costs out more. That's a culture problem, exacerbated by the need to be "bigger and better" for placement. Eliminating the bus won't fix it.

[AntiM]

MyLarry and I were sitting out at the airport, trying to catch a sightseeing flight, and you know who came through the gate? Simon. Sometimes you get there any way you can.

[Token]

MyLarry and I were sitting out at the airport, trying to catch a sightseeing flight, and you know who came through the gate? Simon. Sometimes you get there any way you can.

I fucking knew it!

Loafer wearing, brown rice eating, coke sniffing glitterati masquerading as the little people!

[XPTom]

Papa Bear:

"....But I think most of us see a whole lot of interesting territory between "everyone riding the bus" and "nobody rides the bus"....

Worth repeating. It takes all types and people traveling light are good types. Philosophies aside this is an impact study, and the rideshare/BXB types put the "low" in low impact. The tent only folks in my camp take half the space of tent+ car folks and a small fraction of what the RV's take. Cargo folks know two limits. Either your container "cubes out"(volume) or "grosses out"(weight). Large RVs "cube" camps out and tent people do neither. If we discourage the low impact types this impact study would be about adding more rings of parking so we could enlarge our ration of space,...… I'd rather discuss adding more burners.

[Papa Bear]

MyLarry and I were sitting out at the airport, trying to catch a sightseeing flight, and you know who came through the gate? Simon. Sometimes you get there any way you can.

Well, that settles it then. If Simon uses it...

Really, though, what I'm trying to say there isn't that the BxAir is bad, just that I don't know enough about the ridership to know if it skews a particular direction. So I can't really say if it's encouraging PnP tourists, or just shifting people out of private cars As I observe the bus to be doing.

[Papa Bear]

If we discourage the low impact types this impact study would be about adding more rings of parking so we could enlarge our ration of space,...… I'd rather discuss adding more burners.

I believe adding extra rings and enlarging the area enclosed by the trash fence is on the table as well. Even in tents, those people have to go somewhere.

[DrCook]

Flying and bussing masses of people in, who obviously must depend on vendors (or “camps”) to accommodate them and obviously cannot be bringing much for anyone else to enjoy ruins it.
The majority become spectators.
There’s just no way around that.

It’s just over.

I've ridden the BxB from Reno the last few years and can tell you from experience that the assumptions you're making aren't true. A high percentage on the bus are veteran East Coast burners who ship tons of stuff in containers beforehand and are anything but spectators. Take a stroll by the NYC containers (5 will be parked at 8 and A this year) and take a look at the wide variety of camp infrastructure, art pieces and everything else that burners who don't drive their stuff in are bringing. The idea that the means of transporting stuff and oneself to the burn is correlated with how much one contributes is just wrong.

[some seeing eye]

Everybody,

The deadline to submit comments is 11PM tonight Saturday August 4.

Email:

[email protected]
with “Burning Man Event Special
Recreation Permit EIS” in the
subject line.

Web form:
https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-off ... odId=67402

I've got mine in, including widening 34 between the 12 mile playa entrance and 447 to provide a safer and faster emergency exit.

What I've heard on this thread is asking to increase the vehicle passes - so provide that input. (According to the census, 2017 occupants per vehicle is 1-13%, 2-47%, 3-19%, 4-11% 5+10%) The BORG has been lobbying for no increases in law enforcement costs and other staffing by the BLM or the county.

[Ratty]

Dr Cook, Thank you. There are posters on this board that refuse to see the other side of alternate transportation. I live in the SF Bay Area so naturally I drive. Because I work with Census I've met people that arrive by all different means. If I lived back east, I would do just as you illustrated. (Or I would be forced to endure a cross country trip with my van so full I couldn't use it the entire way there.

[sparr]

I would like to see benefits for carpooling, other than just splitting the cost of a vehicle pass. Maybe specific gate/exodus lanes for vehicles with more passengers in them ("HOV lanes"), with lanes for 3+, 6+, 10+?

[Ratty]

Sparr, I love that idea. But what would we do to the offenders? More tickets? That would be sad.

[Jackass]

Sorry sparr, but you're not the BXB (yet), you're going to have to wait with all of us singles and doubles... Who's going to enforce HOV lane use and keep track of how many people are inside passed out in various corners of the rv or bus?
I'd just pick up two hitch hikers and away we go!

[sparr]

Sparr, I love that idea. But what would we do to the offenders? More tickets? That would be sad.

Who's going to enforce HOV lane use and keep track of how many people are inside passed out in various corners of the rv or bus?

I suspect someone else could come up with a better plan, but maybe the HOV lanes follow a different path (like the police or service vehicle entrance), and the same process controls that as controls access to that exit already?

I'd just pick up two hitch hikers and away we go!

... great? "casual carpooling" (aka hitchhiking) is a positive use of HOV lanes in big cities.

[trilobyte]

The obvious challenge would be how to enforce a multitude of HOV lanes with varying levels of occupancy. It would require staffers every few hundred feet for the entire length of gate road, and who knows how many complications and disruptions to deal with ppl who ignore the posted rules along the way. On the low side, it's probably a few hundred volunteers x 3 (or more) shifts a day, which doesn't sound very manageable. If you're serious about improving entry or exit and seriously think you've got solutions, I strongly suggest volunteering with Gate, Perimeter, and Exodus. At the very least you'll learn a lot about the process and at the most your ideas may lead to improvements that help the flow of traffic into and out of the city.

[Token]

FastTrack Lanes for the Glitterati!!!

It’s not gonna work cuz there is only one lane of asphalt and a long line at the gas station.

30000 vehicles do have to pass that choke point no matter what.

[Captain Goddammit]

Flying and bussing masses of people in, who obviously must depend on vendors (or “camps”) to accommodate them and obviously cannot be bringing much for anyone else to enjoy ruins it.
The majority become spectators.
There’s just no way around that.

It’s just over.

I've ridden the BxB from Reno the last few years and can tell you from experience that the assumptions you're making aren't true. A high percentage on the bus are veteran East Coast burners who ship tons of stuff in containers beforehand and are anything but spectators. Take a stroll by the NYC containers (5 will be parked at 8 and A this year) and take a look at the wide variety of camp infrastructure, art pieces and everything else that burners who don't drive their stuff in are bringing. The idea that the means of transporting stuff and oneself to the burn is correlated with how much one contributes is just wrong.

Sure there will be some exceptions.
But that’s what they are. Exceptions.

[trilobyte]

DrCook.... High percentage, you say? East coast, you say? How exactly are you able to say? Are you involved in BxB booking or conducting surveys on the bus? Because anything less than actual data is just some random person making really wild guesses

[Ratty]

The BRC Census might help. For starters. Approx. 10% of participants came on the BXB. Where only 1 or 1.5% came byBX Air. From where they originated, Census could tell you.