Especially when grown in a petri dish.BlueBirdPoof wrote: "Cultures" are far more organic and robust than "Bills of Rights."
Can A Burner Bill of Rights Revive Our Culture?
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spectabillis
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philosopher
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There are a few things in primate's posting a while back (which I am just excerpting below) that need reconsideration. I have a few thoughts about some possible directions.
1) If primate needs a place where he can go once a year to yell idiotic negative things at the top of his lungs, perhaps he will consider checking himself into a mental health facility.
2) If primate doesn't realize that what he is doing occurs in a context that is dynamically shaped by his "participation" and that BRC can be degraded not just by physical violence, but by aggressive behavior like his that we are conditioned to perceive as a threat of violence and as a kind of dominating behavior, he is either stupid or delusional. How would he like it if some masked guys put together "Assassins' Camp" and their radical self-expression consisted in taking turns following him around BRC the whole time, brandishing various weapons and yelling, "I'm just waiting for my chance, asshole!" Would that be OK with him? According to his definition of rights, it would.
3) Primate has no idea what natural selection dynamics are at work in his behaviors or mine. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, nature must like idiots because she sure made a lot of them. Future generations (not we) get to talk meaningfully about the differential characteristics in our generation.
Anyway, even if nature may like idiots, I don't have to. That's what culture is all about--saying yes to this and no to that. BRC already says no to a whole list of things: commercialism, spectators, passenger cars, etc. Part of the list is written and part is unwritten. I'd like to add primate's particular form of idiocy to that list, and anybody with an ounce of sense wouldn't need that written down.
1) If primate needs a place where he can go once a year to yell idiotic negative things at the top of his lungs, perhaps he will consider checking himself into a mental health facility.
2) If primate doesn't realize that what he is doing occurs in a context that is dynamically shaped by his "participation" and that BRC can be degraded not just by physical violence, but by aggressive behavior like his that we are conditioned to perceive as a threat of violence and as a kind of dominating behavior, he is either stupid or delusional. How would he like it if some masked guys put together "Assassins' Camp" and their radical self-expression consisted in taking turns following him around BRC the whole time, brandishing various weapons and yelling, "I'm just waiting for my chance, asshole!" Would that be OK with him? According to his definition of rights, it would.
3) Primate has no idea what natural selection dynamics are at work in his behaviors or mine. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, nature must like idiots because she sure made a lot of them. Future generations (not we) get to talk meaningfully about the differential characteristics in our generation.
Anyway, even if nature may like idiots, I don't have to. That's what culture is all about--saying yes to this and no to that. BRC already says no to a whole list of things: commercialism, spectators, passenger cars, etc. Part of the list is written and part is unwritten. I'd like to add primate's particular form of idiocy to that list, and anybody with an ounce of sense wouldn't need that written down.
primate wrote:Here's a thought. More rules no matter how poorly, or eloquently phrased, just equal more rules. Personally, the reason that I have been returning to b-man for the last 6 years is because I spend most of my life being responsible and obeying rules and I need a place that I can go once a year where I don't have to obey any rules.
Now when it comes to acting violently towards others I don't really go in for that sort of thing. Basically I think the premise that your rights end at the tip of my nose and vice versa pretty much sum up the basis of any rule worth obeying. As long as nobody get's hurt then it's all fair game.
With that said.
For the last 5 years at the burn I spent most of my time yelling assinine things at the top of my lungs. (Yes I am that guy). Many of my comments got a chuckle from some and I am sure much eye rolling from many. This year however a group of British...ravers asked me to stop yelling such negative things, because they were rolling and it was ruining their experience...
So here's my question, who's right? If yelling stupid shit is how I get my rocks off and yet if that ruins some one else's good time who's rights trumps the others? I subsrcibe to the theory that he who yells loudest gets heard. So the ravers moved and I kept on yelling.
It seems to me that Burning Man already has way too many rules...
Look, life used to be about survival of the fittest, if you were an idiot and you hurt yourself, you died and you didn't spread your idiot genes...
Ah, the razor's edge we walk. Seems like the post suggests (to me) that rules - any rules - are or should be anathema to what Burning Man is or should be about. To hell with what others think and to hell with what others find annoying, irritating or generally negative. I mean, the loudest, most obnoxious should trump all other considerations after all. One of the problems inherent within a collective as it gets larger is that there's a broader base of individuals (and groups) who take an accepted idea and often extrapolate the interpretation, belief or definition of it to whatever point is necessary to comfortably fit their view of things. The more people you have doing this the broader the 'boundaries' of the meaning get pushed. For instance, not interfereing in anyone's immediate experience is a good example. Any attempt to reduce or disallow Primate to yell into his bullhorn or hurl insults at people are seen as an unfair imposition of 'rules' Probably a fair claim and one I wouldn't refute here. But in the context of not interfering with another person's immediate experience Primate seems to be arguing only one part of the equation. Namely, the point or position that his experinece is paramount to the to those around him. A total rejection of rules or policy or norms can only go so far or for so long as long when one ignores the other part of the equation which I often reference as the social contract.Here's a thought. More rules no matter how poorly, or eloquently phrased, just equal more rules. Personally, the reason that I have been returning to b-man for the last 6 years is because I spend most of my life being responsible and obeying rules and I need a place that I can go once a year where I don't have to obey any rules.
Now when it comes to acting violently towards others I don't really go in for that sort of thing. Basically I think the premise that your rights end at the tip of my nose and vice versa pretty much sum up the basis of any rule worth obeying. As long as nobody get's hurt then it's all fair game.
Anyone want to take a shot at what that is or what it suggests?
Desert dogs drink deep.
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Guest
Philosopher wrote... "I'd like to add primate's particular form of idiocy to that list, and anybody with an ounce of sense wouldn't need that written down."
Oh come on, get over it. The guy's just playing with people on the playa in his own way. Not so different than Disinformation camp or many of the other little camps/events/interactive things that try and get a reaction out of people. It's all in fun. Yell back, walk away, whatever. Oooh, that man yelled silly things at me, my experience is being opressed.
Did you ever see spectator camp a few years back? Bleachers built along the esplanade and people coule sit up there with a megaphone and tell people what to do and abuse them verbally. It was hilarious and fun. No one got hurt except fot thos people that didn't have much of a sense of humor, and who needs them anyway?
Oh come on, get over it. The guy's just playing with people on the playa in his own way. Not so different than Disinformation camp or many of the other little camps/events/interactive things that try and get a reaction out of people. It's all in fun. Yell back, walk away, whatever. Oooh, that man yelled silly things at me, my experience is being opressed.
Did you ever see spectator camp a few years back? Bleachers built along the esplanade and people coule sit up there with a megaphone and tell people what to do and abuse them verbally. It was hilarious and fun. No one got hurt except fot thos people that didn't have much of a sense of humor, and who needs them anyway?
The question Primate puts out is a fair one. I certinly don't subscribe to his interpretation but it does shine light on the behavior of some folks who HAVE taken his position. The Capitalist Pigs were a good example of the mindset he uses as an example.Oh come on, get over it. The guy's just playing with people on the playa in his own way. Not so different than Disinformation camp or many of the other little camps/events/interactive things that try and get a reaction out of people. It's all in fun. Yell back, walk away, whatever. Oooh, that man yelled silly things at me, my experience is being opressed.
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geekster
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I am all for rules that are about safety. People shouldn't have to worry about getting run over if they are lying on the playa looking at the stars or getting blown up or squirted with burning fuel. I am not so sure I am in favor of rules that would attempt to enforce any particular culture, though. I get enough of that in the default world with Fundamentalist Conservatives telling us who we can't marry, Fundamentalist Liberals telling us we can't have a nativity scene on public property ... I dont need Fundamentalist Burners forging culture into rules. Rules imply a penalty and to be penalized for cultural eccentricity somehow goes against the grain with me.
I understand how people in today's culture seem unable to act as individuals to tell people what they think, instead handing that responsibility over to "The Authority" in the form of rules and enforcement. Not sure that has a place at MY burningman.
Fuck a bunch of rules. Peer pressure and social culture should be enough without having to codify the culture. Will we need storm troopers to enforce the culture? Maybe they could wear black flip-flops and have smilie-face armbands. If someone is doing something unsafe or just plain wrong, get vocal about it, YOURSELF, ON THE SPOT, if you can do so without getting confrontational unless there is some immediate threat to life or limb. Just because you don't LIKE something doesn't mean there should be a rule against it. Otherwise parsnips would have been fucking banned a LONG time ago.
I understand how people in today's culture seem unable to act as individuals to tell people what they think, instead handing that responsibility over to "The Authority" in the form of rules and enforcement. Not sure that has a place at MY burningman.
Fuck a bunch of rules. Peer pressure and social culture should be enough without having to codify the culture. Will we need storm troopers to enforce the culture? Maybe they could wear black flip-flops and have smilie-face armbands. If someone is doing something unsafe or just plain wrong, get vocal about it, YOURSELF, ON THE SPOT, if you can do so without getting confrontational unless there is some immediate threat to life or limb. Just because you don't LIKE something doesn't mean there should be a rule against it. Otherwise parsnips would have been fucking banned a LONG time ago.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
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sparkletarte
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geekster
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See what I mean ... but if we took a vote, most would say they didn't like them. They would be banned. People that didn't like them would be "offended" by seeing them ... by having to see them, because it would remind them a of their distaste of them.
And it gets even weirder ... there might be a minority who are "offended" by seeing parsnips so parsnips must be kept out of public display so they aren't "offended".
In reality, I suspect they aren't really "offended" at all ... or if they really are, they have some personal issues they need to work on. In reality they are taking delight in being the center of attention and forcing the rest of society to bend over backwards to cowtow to them. It's a control issue.
I don't think we need to coddle people. You don't like something, okay, fine, thanks for sharing. You have no right to tell me I can't do something simply because you don't LIKE it. Now I might decide to stop doing it if it is obvious that NOBODY likes it and I am being shunned by the community.
Like the rave camps ... I would never want to see them banned but do think that culture is detrimental to BM if people show up to do nothing more than dance for a week. But then ... the rave camp with a bunch of dancers is part of the art that is BRC. I think there should be a rave camp every 40 feet on every street. That would fix the problem, I think.
Oh, and maybe a Parsnip camp too. Maybe there is a way of preparing them that I would like and I am still willing to try them.
And it gets even weirder ... there might be a minority who are "offended" by seeing parsnips so parsnips must be kept out of public display so they aren't "offended".
In reality, I suspect they aren't really "offended" at all ... or if they really are, they have some personal issues they need to work on. In reality they are taking delight in being the center of attention and forcing the rest of society to bend over backwards to cowtow to them. It's a control issue.
I don't think we need to coddle people. You don't like something, okay, fine, thanks for sharing. You have no right to tell me I can't do something simply because you don't LIKE it. Now I might decide to stop doing it if it is obvious that NOBODY likes it and I am being shunned by the community.
Like the rave camps ... I would never want to see them banned but do think that culture is detrimental to BM if people show up to do nothing more than dance for a week. But then ... the rave camp with a bunch of dancers is part of the art that is BRC. I think there should be a rave camp every 40 feet on every street. That would fix the problem, I think.
Oh, and maybe a Parsnip camp too. Maybe there is a way of preparing them that I would like and I am still willing to try them.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.
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sparkletarte
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Curried Parsnip Soup
Ingredients:
1 tbsp vegetable oil
1 tbsp butter
1 red or yellow onion, chopped
3 parsnips, chopped
2 cloves garlic, crushed
1-2 tsp curry powder
1/2 tsp chilli powder
1 tbsp flour
4 c vegetable stock
grated rind & juice of one lemon
salt and pepper to taste
Directions:
Heat the oil and butter in a pot until melted. Add the onions, parsnips, and garlic, and sauté for 5-7 min., stirring until the veggies have softened. Add curry and chilli powders, stir, and cook for a few minutes. Sprinkle in the flour, mix well, and cook another minute. Stir in the stock, lemon rind (reserve some for a garnish), lemon juice, and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer for 20 min.
When it’s done, pour the soup into a food processor and blend until smooth. Return the soup to the pot and reheat for a few minutes, but do not boil. Ladle into bowls and garnish with the reserved lemon zest. It’s also tasty with a dollop of plain yogurt in top.
Ingredients:
1 tbsp vegetable oil
1 tbsp butter
1 red or yellow onion, chopped
3 parsnips, chopped
2 cloves garlic, crushed
1-2 tsp curry powder
1/2 tsp chilli powder
1 tbsp flour
4 c vegetable stock
grated rind & juice of one lemon
salt and pepper to taste
Directions:
Heat the oil and butter in a pot until melted. Add the onions, parsnips, and garlic, and sauté for 5-7 min., stirring until the veggies have softened. Add curry and chilli powders, stir, and cook for a few minutes. Sprinkle in the flour, mix well, and cook another minute. Stir in the stock, lemon rind (reserve some for a garnish), lemon juice, and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer for 20 min.
When it’s done, pour the soup into a food processor and blend until smooth. Return the soup to the pot and reheat for a few minutes, but do not boil. Ladle into bowls and garnish with the reserved lemon zest. It’s also tasty with a dollop of plain yogurt in top.
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philosopher
- Posts: 138
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- Location: Chico, CA