Close the Gates on Thursday !

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:11 pm

wonder if the online census for 2k3 provides for a way of infering any need to change dates? Hmmm.

Or at least the student/educator/ "everyone else" ratio. Even knwoing that would be enlightening.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:13 pm

You know when it's all said and done, this is Larry's dream. And we're going to debate this and the senior staff will listen, but it's their call to make, and ultimately his.

The best we can do is offer up our collective views and let them sort it out...and see where it falls.

I know that if I was to become a coordinator and got a regional event off the ground, I'd try to schedule it to take the students into account. I guess I'm just biased towards them, wow, I found another character flaw to add to the long list.

Still based on what I've just read from both Stormy and Ivy I find that I admire both of them even more. What an interesting pair to know!

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:50 pm

Ivy wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you do what you do and I'm glad you like it and do it well. But don't for one minute think that makes you any more deserving of BM than anyone else.

Thanks Ivy, I hear what you're saying. Didn't mean to give the impression that I think I am any more deserving than anyone else. Perhaps the last line of my post should have been left off. Just saying that educators have to choose a)not to go b)to go for only 3 - 5 days or c)get creative to take time off. This year I switched districts and was allowed to miss three days of meetings because I was getting married. Won't be allow to pull that trick next year.

Would be really interested in the number of people impacted. I think those most impacted by the dates would be teachers, professors, college students, and parents of school aged children. I wish all schools started a week after Burning Man. Though I think I would have a better change convincing the Borg to change its dates rather than countless school districts to change their dates because of this event.

If we were to do a poll, how would we get the votes of those who haven't been but want to? Perhaps someone has ideas on effective polling.

Niim · Post by **Niim** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:05 pm

The very fact of the existence and the length of this discussion indicates that there's a problem out there. WE WANT A CHANGE!!!! WE WANT TO CHANGE!!!! how do we do it?!?!?! yes, a lot depends on the organizers, and I do agree about closing the gate on Friday morning. (me and my friends came from the East coast last year thinking we had to make it by Thursday midnight, and we put so much effort on accomplishing it and we never complained about it because it seemd right!)
But what about the disappearance of art? I do not know much about BM spirit, but I do know, I felt it, there was much less art this year, much less CREATIVITY - and that depends on US and nobody else. As always, IT TAKES 2 to CHANGE something. Let's DO IT, damn it!

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:39 pm

If we were to do a poll, how would we get the votes of those who haven't been but want to? Perhaps someone has ideas on effective polling.

I like the idea of an online poll or census, along the lines of what the Judge mentioned eariler.

Effective polling is key, though--youd ave to ave a way for everyone to vote only once, you'd ahve to be able to take into account people interested in going as well as people who may already have tickets, etc. I personally don't have the knowledge to make such a poll but somebody out there must.

The best we can do is offer up our collective views and let them sort it out...and see where it falls.

I know for a fact that people from the org do read these boards; even if these are not issues they currently plan to address, the seeds are there in their subconscious. That's why I keeps threads like this ging and keep posting about issues that are importnat to me. I know they get read.

And yes, it is Harvey's vision; if he wanted to he could reschedule to spring break or Chirstmas or Purim.

Iago · Post by **Iago** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:55 pm

But what about the disappearance of art?
You hit the nail right on the head with that one Niim!
If you want to change the world just do your thing honestly and the rest will take care of itself. To me BM is an Art Festival for the the unwashed and an experience you are just going to have to fucking figure out for yourself. It really boils down to your own peception that nobody else is really going to give a shit about, cause in the end we all die alone....

portazo · Post by **portazo** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:56 am

From JRS Volume 8 Issue 3 9.20.03:
"If you have any ideas about what you want to see change for 2004, reply to this JRS and let us know what they are. We're looking forward to them. The
best way for us to keep up with you creative people is to hear your ideas when they're fresh - please don't hesitate!"

OK, creative people, get typing!
(If you're not on the Jack Rabbit Speaks List, you can sign up on the main bman webpage.)

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 10:14 am

portazo wrote:From JRS Volume 8 Issue 3 9.20.03:
"If you have any ideas about what you want to see change for 2004, reply to this JRS and let us know what they are. We're looking forward to them. The
best way for us to keep up with you creative people is to hear your ideas when they're fresh - please don't hesitate!"

OK, creative people, get typing!
(If you're not on the Jack Rabbit Speaks List, you can sign up on the main bman webpage.)

Aw, saw that last night also. Thanks for reminding us to point our bitching in a direction that may effect change.

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 10:35 am

The survey thingy also has a text box you can make some suggestions in. Mine were to de-emphasize big theme camps and de-emphasize the esplanade just a little bit.

Niim · Post by **Niim** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:05 pm

QUOTE : "OK, creative people, get typing!"

It's not about typing - it's about doing. And it seems that less and less people want to DO things, they just wnat to ENJOY. i see a lot , much more than in previous years, people complaining that thier art has been vandalised. or may it's just a slowdown in economy.... people just do not have money to spend on their grandious fantasies, just on drugs... me included.
and common, $250 is ridcioulosly high price for a radical self-expression, no matter what they tell you. capitalism wins afterall - imagine it will be $300 next year? will you play along?
i do not want to theorise much about all these, but this year just didn't FEEL right., despite all the good times, wonderfull people, beatifull sunrises etc. and you got to trust your feelings. agree?
I actually would really enjoy seeing the whole act being canceled
next year - that would be really RADICAL!

portazo · Post by **portazo** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:15 pm

Niim wrote: It's not about typing - it's about doing.

I (obviously) didn't mean people should ONLY type, and do nothing...

madmatt · Post by **madmatt** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:40 pm

Any time of year is going to mean some people can go and some can't. A big part of the actual result of bm is the fact that it's so far away from everything, isolated and you really have to plan and take the time, money, and effort to make it happen. If it was easy, it wouldn't be worth as much. What a bunch of sniveling whiners talking about how it's inconvenient for them to have their vacations at that time of year! They should be glad they have jobs and enough money left over and brain power and luxury left over time to even go to BM!! There's plenty of people out there who are broke and somehow pull the shit together by racking their brains, begging borrowing, stealing or lying to be there. We all have jobs and lives and obligations at home, and if you can't leave it all behing, then you just CAN'T. You won't die from missing out on it, it means that you've got to get your more primarily important shit in order some more. There's still plenty of people who can come, and BM community and atmosphere won't suffer because you or a hundred others can't make it. The fact still remains that the really dedicated people will still come, and they'll be the motors to precipitate.

Anyone on this thread notice how BM is in the absolute hottest time of year? It could just as easily take place in the spring, then it wouldn't be so hot. But the heat and sun and exposure is part of it, just as much as is the struggle to get out there. Imagine if the event took place between xmas and new years?! Everyone could get the time off, but the whiners would be crying that they couldn't get away from their pitiful family obligations.

PS - This isn't directed at any particular person using this thread <a href: insert smiling emoticom here /a>

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:49 pm

madmatt wrote:There's plenty of people out there who are broke and somehow pull the shit together by racking their brains, begging borrowing, stealing or lying to be there.

We should admire those that lie and steal in order to get to BM?

(And as far as the spring or winter goes, do you know what the overnight lows are in the desert at those times of year??)

PJ · Post by PJ » Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:25 pm

Teachers would get fired for being AWOL the first week of school. For the vast majority of school teachers missing one event, however special, pales in comparison to the dread of holding a normal job that goes year-round with only two weeks of paid vacation.

My belief it that B.Man should be held earlier in the summer because most people plan for it a year in advance and it's a waste of a potential three-day weekend. People need more breaks than they're taking; squandering a simple three-day weekend just to add that one paid holiday onto a longer trip is counterproductive.

TestesInSac · Post by **TestesInSac** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:55 pm

Another way of looking at it is to ask how many people would be excluded by the event occuring in the 2nd week of August, as opposed to how many are excluded by the event happening on the last week of August. I suspect that, on balance, holding it the 2nd week of August does more good than harm, assuming it does any harm at all.

cobwebbywings · Post by **cobwebbywings** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:38 pm

Chai Guy: Im glad being able to stay and clean up on Monday makes you feel like a'"real burner". I've been wondering what one needs to do to become a so-called real burner. Some of us have jobs that we have already got a week off from that we have to return to on Monday. It's usually not easy to convince your boss to give you a week off. I would love to be able to stay and help but I would probably get fired so I do my best to clean up all week long.

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:42 pm

PJ wrote:Teachers would get fired for being AWOL the first week of school. For the vast majority of school teachers missing one event, however special, pales in comparison to the dread of holding a normal job that goes year-round with only two weeks of paid vacation.

My belief it that B.Man should be held earlier in the summer because most people plan for it a year in advance and it's a waste of a potential three-day weekend. People need more breaks than they're taking; squandering a simple three-day weekend just to add that one paid holiday onto a longer trip is counterproductive.

PJ, you just made my day. I'd kiss your ass, but I guess I'd have to wait in line behind the bovines.

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:54 pm

Niim wrote:QUOTE : "OK, creative people, get typing!"

It's not about typing - it's about doing. And it seems that less and less people want to DO things, they just wnat to ENJOY. i see a lot , much more than in previous years, people complaining that thier art has been vandalised. or may it's just a slowdown in economy.... people just do not have money to spend on their grandious fantasies, just on drugs... me included.
and common, $250 is ridcioulosly high price for a radical self-expression, no matter what they tell you. capitalism wins afterall - imagine it will be $300 next year? will you play along?
i do not want to theorise much about all these, but this year just didn't FEEL right., despite all the good times, wonderfull people, beatifull sunrises etc. and you got to trust your feelings. agree?
I actually would really enjoy seeing the whole act being canceled
next year - that would be really RADICAL!

Hmm, I think what would be really RADICAL, is if you could come up with a plan that would bring ticket prices down and work on FEELing right. I seem to remember something about that happiness BS starting on the inside or some such dribble.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:19 pm

This year the JRS covered it well: Clean as you go. If you do that there's less need to stay after in the first place.

jaygo · Post by **jaygo** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:59 am

Ivy wrote:My comments on academics came out because I'd like to see more ART in BM vs. all the music camps...don't get me wrong I love Reorient and Sol System and camps like that but I want to see more creativity on display.

i've camped with disorient/reorient for two years running now, and i have to say that you're doing some pretty heavy-handed assuming there. i've rarely spent time with a more collectively creative group. we had loads of spark and talent. did you see the light sculptures? did you see the video? were you discounting those spectacles from being creative because they were working in conjunction with a booming bass?

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:01 pm

> I wonder if the online census for 2k3 provides for a way of infering any
> need to change dates? Hmmm.

The 2002 census asked about whether moving the event would be good,
bad, or indifferent for you.

Unfortunately, according to the last JRS, the papers were thrown away by
accident. And I didn't see anything on this year's form to indicate whether
the event's dates worked for you or any way to infer anything about
potential dates.

Borris · Post by **Borris** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:22 pm

jaygo wrote:
Ivy wrote:My comments on academics came out because I'd like to see more ART in BM vs. all the music camps...don't get me wrong I love Reorient and Sol System and camps like that but I want to see more creativity on display.
i've camped with disorient/reorient for two years running now, and i have to say that you're doing some pretty heavy-handed assuming there. i've rarely spent time with a more collectively creative group. we had loads of spark and talent. did you see the light sculptures? did you see the video? were you discounting those spectacles from being creative because they were working in conjunction with a booming bass?

And I don't know shit, but tose Trapeze things at Sol System sure looked creative to me, not to mention their dancefloor was one of the most beautifull ones i've ever seen. and their surround soundsystem, I'm yet to hear one to match it in creativity, they wrote proprietary software to make it work.

but I've only seen 4 3/2 "dance/rave" camps that were that creative (that is not just stick some speakers up and put a DJ on) Reorient, Sol system, Church of wow (with the lazers), Xara and to some extent Trance Village, Boombox and the Opulent temple. (the el circo dome had some really great music but no extra creative value). some camps have been hosting parties but it wasn't their main gig so I'm not counting them (Bolywood). I'd sure wish that unless you can provide extra value to the music OR have some Really Good-Creative electronic music you just won't do it, or just team up with someone who can and add to their capabilities.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:47 am

Some have pointed out that any time of year sucks for someone, which is true, but also keep in mind that there are relatively few cast-in-stone dates that make it difficult for fairly large segments of the population to make it.

For example, if the event was held between Thanksgiving and Christmas, anyone that works in retail would have a hard time making it. That's a very large group of people Similarly, the end of August sucks for a great many teachers, students, and parents of students.

The second week in August would suck for some people, but I can't think of an entire class of people who would be unable to make it as a result of the timing, like there is with the current scheduling.

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:54 am

Stormy wrote:But I think totally excluding teachers, professors, students and parents who want to be with their kids for the first week of school, is rather sad.

This is kinda cute:

My Grandmother is Planning to Die During the First Week of Classes By Matthew Taylor

Dearest Professors to whom it may concern,

For the third time in three years, my grandmother is planning to die during the week leading into and including Labor Day. In fact, her funeral pyre will be lit at approximately 9 p.m. on Saturday, August 30th, at which time 30,000 of my closest friends will join me in mourning as her remains are charred into a 40 foot tall column of flame illuminating a moonless sky over the Nevada desert.

This, of course, means that I will miss the entirety of the first week of classes. As I have done in years past, I am writing this letter to ask that you hold my place in your class. I hope you, as many instructors have before, will show compassion and understanding for my week of grief and grant this highly unusual request.

I realize it inconveniences you that grandmothers of thousands of UC Berkeley students all simultaneously die at this time every year, depriving you of the opportunity to orient students, confirm enrollees, and churn through the waiting list during the first week of fall classes. I understand how frustrated you must feel with the administration's continued apathy, indifference, and insensitivity to the grief and sorrow felt by this significant percentage of the campus population, who are forced to miss out on higher educational opportunities, every year, without fail, because of how very, very much they love their grandmothers. I know that every year, you probably band together to lobby Sproul to push back the start of school to the first Tuesday after Labor Day, and fail in the face of the Orwellian indifference of administrators who continue to believe that the first loyalty of students is to their institution, not their family.

As I am sure you know, attending a funeral is a somber affair, devoid of any fun or creative expression. Nothing is more serious than a funeral. Most of the attendees are dressed head-to-toe in black, muted garb; none are ever clad in multi-colored peacock suits, body paint, mud, or nothing in all. They never run behind water trucks screaming with laughter, practice Yoga with 80 other people under a shade structure, explore massive hedge mazes, ride their bicycles in random directions around a playa, or bump into a friendly "love ranger" who can attend to all their love emergencies.

At my grandmother's annual funeral, there is little in the way of conversation, much less community building - no chance of meeting about 200 new friends in a dance camp, participating in a community grey-water recycling project, building a theme camp of like-minded mourners or even a village of similarly bereaved theme camps, or getting spanked on the ass by a "Greeter."

To add insult to injury, at my grandmother's tragic annual funeral, there is no artwork. No giant, 30-foot-tall statues of naked women moaning in ecstasy, no art installations that are testament to the fallacy of consumer culture, no glowing, flashing lilly pads, no massive temple so intricately crafted you'd think it was the eighth wonder of the world.

And if all that wasn't bad enough, the worst part of grandmother's funeral is: no gifts. NONE! Can you believe it? I mean, gramma DIED for chrissakes, you'd think someone would have the forethought to introduce some sort of "gift economy" which would inspire attendees to give gifts from their heart to strangers with no expectation of return. Yup, that means no one handing out banana bread to strangers, no free drinks on roving "art cars" with bars straight out of the Mos Eisley cantina, no giving pedicures to anyone whose feet are chapped, and, horror of horrors, no free grilled cheese sandwiches at smut shacks.

Yes, my grandmother's funeral is such a morbid affair it's beyond belief, and worst of all it interferes with my college education. Have pity on me, and the world. Hopefully, this year, she won't be standing erect on a massive platform, naked and barren in all her wooden glory, with brilliant neon lights wrapped around her carcass and her arms raised as if calling to the gods for deliverance, before we burn, baby, burn.

- Berkeley Undergrad's Remorse Never Is Neglecting Grandmother's Merry Abundant Neofestival

Notes of condolence for the author's upcoming loss may be mailed to [email protected]

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:56 am

mulitple wrote:GROWN UP STIMULATION ... that VERY IMPORTANT element ... BUTT

I couldn't have said it better myself, multiple!

nymphgonebad · Post by **nymphgonebad** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:25 am

Flux wrote: and, horror of horrors, no free grilled cheese sandwiches at smut shacks

since we we're too disorganized this year ( goth ravers are notorious slackers - we didn't even make it to the temple burn this year ), in '04 we will be holding the bianca's smut shack mobile grilled cheese operation memorial tea.

portazo · Post by **portazo** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:19 am

Flux wrote: The second week in August would suck for some people, but I can't think of an entire class of people who would be unable to make it as a result of the timing, like there is with the current scheduling.

That says it in a nutshell! Someone asking their work for a week off, in most cases, could request any old week they want. Actually, a lot of non-bman employees probably request days off around labor day to extend the 3 day weekend, so some bosses will be thrilled to spread it out a bit...

PJ · Post by PJ » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:39 am

Flux wrote:...if the event was held between Thanksgiving and Christmas, anyone that works in retail would have a hard time making it.

Yeah, well, their lives suck anyway and there's not much anybody can do about that.

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:33 am

Everytime I see that letter that Flux posted I get such a kick out of it.

Thanks Flux.

I'm still curious about something...why does Berkley get slammed so much? I'm not from California which should be obvious but what is their problem? The media uses that place as a virtual punching bag. Would anyone enlighten me about it, especially someone with a local perspective?

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:03 pm

> Would anyone enlighten me about it, especially someone with a local
> perspective?

I graduated from Berkeley, and I've never understood it. Most frigging
apathetic student population ever. Well, except for the 1% rabid
protesters. It's a big school with a history of being revolutionary. It's
a ripe ground for protesting cruelty to animals, students, peanuts,
whatever. It enjoys being a spectacle, or at least the university
administration and local government seem to.

In a biology class, we were given instructions on what to do in the case
of civil unrest. You know, in case PETA came to liberate the cockroaches
we were dissecting.

But mostly I met people who were just going through school like any
other university. Sometimes you had scintillatating political debate.
Mostly you had beer and bongs. And beer bongs. And lots and lots of
coffee.

Close the Gates on Thursday !

yahoos

whoa there pardner

Re: whoa there pardner